[HALF OT] Why Gundams aren't used in real battles?

[ccardoso]

Hello,
I was thinking why human shaped robots aren't used in actual wars in the place of normal soldiers. Is it a techological problem or what? After all robots are much better than simple soldiers...

[F!reStr!fe]

Forget Gundams lets talk about mobile suits in General.
like zakus or something.
The cost to create just one unit would probably be astronomical, The controls wouldnt be as easy as looks like in the anime, and probably the power supply would be a toughie also.
The cost of the development and production of the F-22 raptor plane is about $11 Billion Dollars. A mobile suit would have to have strong armor, Motors to move the body joints, and a power supply that would have to power all of this.
The controls would be fairly complicated. The current jet has a lot of different controls and functions. A mobile suit would have to be able to move in 360 degree direction front, back , and etc. controling a mobile suit would take probably more than one person and training of a pilot would take a long time.
Power Supply is big factor. Yes there are nuclear reactors but its very unlikely that they would be implimented into mass production weapons which would be destroyed fast. Battery power is not really an option. We barely can make Battery powered cars that can go out of a city. There is the option of plugging the unit into a power source of some sort like Evangelion. But the unit would be very vunerable to shut down if hit on that cable. There are many factors which contribute to why we dont have MS out yet mainly becasue we dont have that kind of cheap technology yet.

[Komataguri]

All you need is two Turbo Charged V8 engines, They will provide the hydraulic power to drive all joints and motion, and a dual alternator setup should provide enough power.

You could easily rig a 150gallon Gas tank, which could power the unit for quite some time... You do not need advanced and fancy fission reactors or some kind of overpriced actuators to run joints.


The only problem with controls would be the coding of the operating system, which would read data from sensors in the joints to judge the current momentum of the unit, and react autonomously to counteract and keep the unit upright. the OS would also be responsible for converting simple controls into the complex motion of the unit.

In all actuality, we can code the OS to be almost like a game so the unit can be controlled with a common video game controller. Code the OS to display a target reticle on in unit displays and make the appropriate commands to the computer controlled hydraulics to make the motion to move the body and arms to point at that point.

[Scherazade]

Well, an 18 meter tall machine is a pretty big target, not to mention how slow it would be. It's a lot of money to sink into something that won't be very effective. Mobile suits seem to work great in a TV show, but that's because it's a TV show. Do you honestly think a real mobile suit would be that agile? Probably not, most likely not. It's science fiction for a reason.

[ccardoso]

Originally Posted by Scherazade

Well, an 18 meter tall machine is a pretty big target, not to mention how slow it would be. It's a lot of money to sink into something that won't be very effective. Mobile suits seem to work great in a TV show, but that's because it's a TV show. Do you honestly think a real mobile suit would be that agile? Probably not, most likely not. It's science fiction for a reason.

Even in 1800 the Moon landing was only a dream, but in 1969 became reality...
What I mean is that with some research a prototype of mobile suit can be achieved without too much effort, like Komataguri explained. You say the mobility of such a unit would be very limited: it depends on how powerful its engines are I guess.
Take into account that a mobile suit is very flexible: it can fly, walk, ran, swim, go under water, into the space... It would be the union of all the means of today, even if it would be expensive of course. I don't understand why they weren't realized, even as a prototype to tell if they were worth the investment or not.

[Scherazade]

I understand and appreciate you passion, but you are letting it blind you to the fact that something like a mobile suit is impratical for modern combat. Moon landing is not the same thing as making a humanoid 18 meter tall machine combat worthy. Furthermore, Komataguri has absolutely no idea how much energy is required to actually run a mobile suit. I don't either, no one does because the machine is fictional.

It requires billions of dollars to get the resources just to send a rocket into space once. In order for a mobile suit to fly, it has to be able to provide thrust great enough to counter the force of gravity. It's not like flying an airplane that uses aerodynamics to create lift. Mobile suits are not aerodynamic, the ones that fly mainly are capable of flight only through brute force of its engines. Second the powerplant would have to be able to pump out a LOT of energy on a constant basis just to continue functioning. A modern day nuclear powerplant causes enough trouble on a stable piece of land and you want to place it into a giant humanoid robt that is going to shot at? The show had to invent some weird physics in order to get the powerplant to be possible. You can't just create anything out of thin air in the real world.

The narrative doesn't even fully explain how mobile suits operate, why in the world would you expect someone to figure out a definitive way to make a mobile suit combat worthy? Why would they, the current combat technology is tested and proven, why not stick with that? Gundam is a great universe and a great source of entertainment, but let's leave it at what it is, entertainment. It's not real, it won't be real in our lifetime. Sorry to burst your bubble.

[EpyonEmerald]

Actually,

You are all wrong,

Your eyes are on the cost and the problems, however just like when flight was tried people thought it impossible and not worth it.

A moble suit which can withstand missles, and bullets,

A moble suit that can protect the pilot against nukes,

This thing could go into a city and just destory everything,

Not to mention if it COULD fly, it could nuke city by city and land and own countries,

You say its not worth it? I think your wrong, I think something that is simlier to moble suits will soon come into existance, Will it be one pilot? I doubt it, but it will be simlier,

[Komataguri]

Originally Posted by Scherazade

I understand and appreciate you passion, but you are letting it blind you to the fact that something like a mobile suit is impratical for modern combat. Moon landing is not the same thing as making a humanoid 18 meter tall machine combat worthy. Furthermore, Komataguri has absolutely no idea how much energy is required to actually run a mobile suit. I don't either, no one does because the machine is fictional..

I will thank you not to arrogantly lable someone as clueless, You ignorant ass.


Space was Fictional, Undersea Ships were fictional, Flying was Fictional. it didn't take billions of dollars [except maybe space, and thats only cause America likes to blow money ], all it took was a dedicated few who used what resources that were avalible to fashion a device.

I'm not saying HUman kind will create a suit that is equal in power and speed to that of a fictional Zaku over night, but we do have the ability.

I'm not arguing over its usefulness, I'm arguing over it the ability to construct one.

Originally Posted by Scherazade

It requires billions of dollars to get the resources just to send a rocket into space once. In order for a mobile suit to fly, it has to be able to provide thrust great enough to counter the force of gravity. It's not like flying an airplane that uses aerodynamics to create lift. Mobile suits are not aerodynamic, the ones that fly mainly are capable of flight only through brute force of its engines. Second the powerplant would have to be able to pump out a LOT of energy on a constant basis just to continue functioning. A modern day nuclear powerplant causes enough trouble on a stable piece of land and you want to place it into a giant humanoid robt that is going to shot at? The show had to invent some weird physics in order to get the powerplant to be possible. You can't just create anything out of thin air in the real world.

Thats a Rocket, and America loves to waste money anyways. We don't need a mobile suit to fly, We don't even need it to have any sort of thrusters at all. We're not building a functional Zaku overnight, We are..however..creating prototypes to further our understanding and knowledge of the technology.

What is it with you and Nuclear Energy? You don't need that much power on a damn humanoid mobile unit. All you need is the power provided by 2 engines equiped with dual alternators [ for a total of 4 ]

In the initial stages of prototypical development all you need to power is something no more powerful then a home PC, a electronic hydraulic manager, and a few displays and controls. We're not powering a some magical machine that will fire beams that can destroy the moon, Seems to be your only valid argument for power.

Originally Posted by Scherazade

The narrative doesn't even fully explain how mobile suits operate, why in the world would you expect someone to figure out a definitive way to make a mobile suit combat worthy? Why would they, the current combat technology is tested and proven, why not stick with that? Gundam is a great universe and a great source of entertainment, but let's leave it at what it is, entertainment. It's not real, it won't be real in our lifetime. Sorry to burst your bubble.

I'm not talking about Combat worthy, like I said before, We're not going to be building a fictional Zaku overnight. We are building a concept bed that shows the first incarnation of various technologies required to pilot and operate such a device.

Such a device does not even have to be combat worthy, There are many civilian and industrial uses that a mechanized humanoid unit could excell at.


You are close minded because you have some bizzare concept of creating a nuclear powered beam firing super creature. Thats not possible with our technology, What is possible is a basic walking framework of a humanoid piloted robotic unit.

[FlyByNite]

News Story

In the back of Carlos Owens' southern Alaska yard, an 18-foot-tall steel robot is taking shape in the dim light of the winter afternoons.

The 26-year-old Owens is an Anchorage-area steelworker by day. In his own time, he's hoping to become the creator of a true "mecha"--not a robot, exactly, but a gigantic exoskeleton that can transform its wearer's motions into eight-foot strides and the devastating sweep of a steel fist.

Sure, it sounds like a cartoon or sci-fi fantasy--but so were moon landings 50 years ago. Owens' mecha project is well on its way to completion, its horned red head and pincher hands towering above its creator under a few inches of snow. He's hoping to finish it in time for a test spin at the local drag racetrack next summer, demolishing a few cars to show off its capabilities.

Link to the builders website

[Mr_Paper]

@Komataguri - So you're thinking of mecha more like the labors used in Patlabor? Nothing overly fancy, no elaborate weapons or the such, just simple walking machines that can be piloted?

[Komataguri]

Originally Posted by Mr_Paper

@Komataguri - So you're thinking of mecha more like the labors used in Patlabor? Nothing overly fancy, no elaborate weapons or the such, just simple walking machines that can be piloted?

as a Prototype first stage testbed, Yes. A testbed from which further technologies can be created, implimented, and refined.

[EpyonEmerald]

Scherazade

Is a person who feels joy by putting others down, Someone should buy him a mirror and lock him in a room so he can put himself down forever, I am sure it would be easy,

Scherazade you need to shut up and stop putting people down you newb,

[Shiryuu]

Originally Posted by FlyByNite

News Story

In the back of Carlos Owens' southern Alaska yard, an 18-foot-tall steel robot is taking shape in the dim light of the winter afternoons.

The 26-year-old Owens is an Anchorage-area steelworker by day. In his own time, he's hoping to become the creator of a true "mecha"--not a robot, exactly, but a gigantic exoskeleton that can transform its wearer's motions into eight-foot strides and the devastating sweep of a steel fist.

Sure, it sounds like a cartoon or sci-fi fantasy--but so were moon landings 50 years ago. Owens' mecha project is well on its way to completion, its horned red head and pincher hands towering above its creator under a few inches of snow. He's hoping to finish it in time for a test spin at the local drag racetrack next summer, demolishing a few cars to show off its capabilities.

Link to the builders website

http://www.neogentronyx.com/neomecha2_sm.jpg

I saw that in another forum, I wonder if it will actually work.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Okay, enough of the insults flying around...

You two are arguing about two completely different things...

One side points out the 'possibility' of producing a bipedal machine that could be built and operated.

The other points out the impracticality of such suits in modern warfare.

But both are quite correct.

Sony's latest adroid, Qrio has obtained the ability to run. (not fast, thogh.)
The auto balancing technology is still young, but it is really only a matter of experience. Leonardo D' had himself devised a mechanical doll that can stand up-right, through his study of muscles and nerves, and that's just with cables. (Recently built, tested and proven.)

The main advantage such machines has is the intuitive way it could move that a pilot can take advantage of. It could operate using tools that are bigger verions of human-sized equivalents, and no one needs to be taught how to use hands.
Anyone who saw 'Patlabor' would understand what I mean by their plausable use in the construction industry. (in fact, those who study Seed history would know the first mobile suits then were big spacesuits for construction)

But as for Gundams...

First, it is a fact that Gundams are not built for 1-g flying. Their thrusters originated from their 0-gravity origins. Gundams also have no real place to fit into modern day warfare. These days, it's more important to be invisible than be armoured, more accurate than powerful, and longer range than imposing. Battleships were huge monsters with firepower to take down fortresses, yet they were superseeded because new tactics using bombers made them obsolite.

In both the UC and Seed universe, they made sure some level of universal jamming exists. That is because right now, line of sight is not used to target an enemy. If you got close enough to your enemy to see it, you have already failed. Numerous technology we now possess mean who ever gets detected first, dies. Hand-to-hand combat/dog fighting, as people enjoy seeing in Seed, could not exist. Heck, even fighter planes don't dogfight any more.

There is only three things different between us and Seed. But they are big ones:

1. They need to get REALLY close to the enemy before they could target, due to Nutron Jammer interferance. This means hand-to-hand become possible.

2. Phase-shift armour that permits a MS to survive a rocket. (Right now, NOTHING we have in the army could survive a direct RPG hit reliabily. The RPG would be a fraction of the cost of the armoured unit too...). The problem is, as new armour technology appear, so would new anti-armour weapons... and weapons are always cheaper than armour.

3. Full-fledge fuel cell technology. I am almost certain that's what Seed means by 'battery', as that's the only thing I know that is even close to the required steady power output.

Anyway, I am agreeing with both of you...

(Keep in mind that humanoid powersuits 2.5 Meters tall actually has some possibilities in the future...)

[[DOT].L]

Originally Posted by ccardoso

Hello,
I was thinking why human shaped robots aren't used in actual wars in the place of normal soldiers. Is it a techological problem or what? After all robots are much better than simple soldiers...

i take it the key words r "human shaped".. my guess is it is much easier to use non-human shaped robots with greater effectiveness than to use human shaped robots that require more advanced technology and cost.. the biggest problem we have on making human-shaped robots is that we cannot get them to walk properly.. currently the most advanced walking robot is Honda's Asimo (spelling?), it is able to walk somewhat like a human but only at a slow speed.. so right now wheels r better than legs when constructing a robot.. another techonological barrier we have yet to overcome is the replication of the mechanisms of the human hand.. it is extremely complex and difficult to reproduce.. i would also like u to clarify on the exact size u propose these robots be, if they r gigantic like in the anime then it would be extremely impractical since they will be very hard to replace if destroyed.. i doubt any government will take such a risk to fund such a risky project..

but then again the japanese government might be already developing their first gundam prototype and is prepared to use it to take over the world..

[Scherazade]

I would love it if someone could point out where I have made a personal attack on anyone. I have not put anyone down. Not agreeing with and insulting someone are two entirely separate issues. If you cannot handle someone disagreeing with you then a message board is not for you. If you don't like what I say, fine, argue against, it makes no difference to me, but do not say that I made a personal attack on someone simply because I disagree with them and explain why I do disagree. If anything you are being hypocrits because are doing what you are accusing me of.

Scherazade

Is a person who feels joy by putting others down, Someone should buy him a mirror and lock him in a room so he can put himself down forever, I am sure it would be easy,

Scherazade you need to shut up and stop putting people down you newb

Point out where I "put someone down". I can point to yours, it's in bold. If i'm not mistaken, flamming is against the rules. If you don't know how to express your opinion without resorting to temper tantrums, perhaps you should take some cool down time before making a reply. I really wish you would get over whatever grudge you have against me, it getting tiresome. And the "newb" comments hurt your image more than mine, but if it makes you feel superior have at it.

I will thank you not to arrogantly lable someone as clueless, You ignorant ass

Flame. Also, how is it "arrogant" if I admit to not knowing either? Furthermore I did not say you were clueless or stupid. I said you don't know the required energy to power a fictional machine. That is correct, you don't, it's not an insult. Please set your ego aside.

As for the rest of your points, that applies to you, but ccardoso specificaly asked why humanoid weapons like mobile suits weren't used in war, and that is what I was responded to. If your feelings have been hurt, that's really not my fault nor was it my intention. His question was directly related to mobile suits, the components and functions I mentioned are all a part of what makes a mobile suit a mobile suit.

I really hope that some of you develop thicker skin. Just because a person doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they are insulting you or that they hate you or think that you are stupid. Disagreement is an integral part of discussion. If you only talk to people that agree with you, what's the point of discussing anything? You can disagree with someone and still be respectful.

[Mr_Paper]

Originally Posted by Shiryuu

I saw that in another forum, I wonder if it will actually work.

Honestly, I say no.

It looks good but I doubt it will manage even one step without falling flat on it's face. The design looks good but is it lacking in many areas, namely balance and mobility related areas. If one is going to create a human shaped mecha the best technique is, undoubted, to try and duplicate the portions of the body crucial to balance and movement. It is obvious to any that have thought about it, that the human body is an incredibly complex thing. However, if one focus on simply the movement systems you can deduce the systems needing to be duplicated.

For example, the leg; to accurately duplicate the range of motion the human leg can achieve one needs to start at its connection to the torso. One should note that all joints on the human body are ball and cup joints, this is because they provide the greatest degree of movement in the joint. In the human leg, particularly in the hip, the ball joint allows the leg to twist or pivot on three axis. This allows the leg to not only swing backwards and forwards but side-to-side and alter the direction it is facing. This function is escential if the body wishes to turn. On the robot in the pictures however, the legs do not seem to have these types of joints. Judging from the pictures the legs seem only able to move on one axis. This means the legs cannot spread to a more stable pose nor can they twist to allow the robot to turn while it walks.

The knees look fine, they only really move on one axis so they aren't that difficult to duplicate.

The ankles are another area that is escential to the ability to walk. Looking at the pictures provided, the ankles of his mecha are only able to move on one axis compared to the two axis the human ankle moves on. Having the ankles able to move across two axis is very important as it provides a significant increase in balance. Walking across perfectly level terrian would only really require one axis of movement however, for stabilty reasons the abilty to move on two axis is very important. One should notice that the legs on his mecha are pretty much parrallel to each other and very close together. If one stands in a casual and easy to maintain position you'll notice that your legs are at angles to each other so that your feet are shoulder width apart, if you stand with you feet together like the robot, you'll find it takes effort to maintain balance. Having your legs able to spread provides you with side-to-side support that increases your balance and your ankle's ability to pivot on move than one axis is the key to this. Without this feature, his mecha will wobble about and be extremely easy to knock over.

Now, movement itself. From the pictures alone, I count no more than five hydrolic cylindars in each leg. To achieve a reliable foot and ankle, capable of two axis of movement would (purely for balance), for a mecha that size, require, arguably, six hydrolic cylindars. Four cylindars would be required to control the two axis of movement on the ankle and two to support and control the ball and toe assembly of the foot. The knee would require a further two cylindars and the hip joint alone would require atleast four cylindars and a hefty universal connection to operate. In the one leg I have described, there are atleast ten cylindars, in his entire mecha there can't be more than 20 hydrolic cylindars total. If one wishes to duplicate human movement in a human shaped machine, one needs to match the muscle and tendon system that moves the human version.

Naturally there's more I notice, but on the legs alone, I say it won't walk. -.-

[pyu]

It might sound counter-intuitive to some of you in this forum, but a bipedal humaniod form is inherently unstable. In the animal kingdom, only human beings (with their complex nervous system and an incredible balancing system) have evolved to exclusively use only two legs (each having over 130 individual muscles) for all movement. Even our closest primate cousins find it more convenient to move around with their two fore limbs helping out in their movement.

In robotic research, it has taken over 30 years of research for Sony and other robotic forms to acquire running skills. Even then, in comparison to the requirements such a robot would have to meet in warfare, it falls woefully short.

In the animal kingdom, there are plenty of other movement archtypes that scientists are looking to that are vastly less complex, simple and more efficient to emulate and implement. For example, insects and their cousins are all being studied.

And primarily, the current trend is not to move towards large, complex and expensive war machines that depend primarily on the skill of the pilot for survivability. In fact, its in the opposite fashion.

Thus, you have the answer why you don't have complex and awesome looking war machines ala mecha from Mechwarrior, Gundam, Macross in the modern armies of today. Even the Main Battle Tank is in danger because its ... well, not very stealthy...

[Dark Crusader]

I'd agree with everyone else that an 18m tall MS would be impractical cost wise and probably useless in warfare. In construction probably could find a home. As for powered suits 2.5 they would be a very pratical weapon and civilian use item and would probably be as expensive or cheaper then a tank. I'm picturing something a kin to purifier/elemental armor from the battletech universe or possibly something similar to the MD Geist armor. Also an MS about 7-10m meters high could be more practical as it would most likely replace tanks.

But as for can we build one well most likely with some effort.

[Mr_Paper]

Originally Posted by Dark Crusader

But as for can we build one well most likely with some effort.

I've actually been debating building a 2 foot tall mecha to test out my theories on movement and stability. I just need to learn how to machine metal and weld. >.>;