Kanon - Speculation & Theories (for first time viewers)

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

...nothing is impossible in the kanon world as long as you have hope...and mai around the corner to heal any cuts and grazies

You do realize you just made a pun right ...

[Grey]

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

yea the theory that ayu fell off the tree is getting more and more realistic >.< perhaps the tree was cut down because of the accident

Yeah, I think we now have pretty solid theory confirmation regarding the Ayu-Tree accident. It's very gratifying. The tree being cut down because of the accident also seems somewhat plausible, although I'm placing no wagers.

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

well her memories of going to school is all a fake...and i think by taking yuuichi to the tree stump she somehow manages to pass the barrier of illusions which has been keeping her at a stand still ~ this could have triggered the truth to her and now she is searching for the doll for the last wish (probably telling yuuichi to never leave her side again) ~ im bracing myself already for a tearful end >.<

I'm a bit worried about the 'searching for the doll' hypothesis. Such a thing would be so tiny and fragile, after seven years I'd expect it to be in a far away landfill or trampled into unrecognizability. I still wonder whether the 'missing item' she's actually searching for is her real body. If she's not dead, I'd imagine the doll would be with her body (if it's anywhere at all). (Or maybe that doctor has the doll?)

Originally Posted by Skyfall

Previously i thought that her illness might get fatal, but now i think she is going to suffer a car accident. We had the "watch out for cars" again, and we know that she walks to her work and has to cross a busy road at that... given that KyoAni don't throw things in for the heck of it, i smell trouble.

Either that, or Nayuki is going to have to deliver something to Akiko to her work and get in to an accident. (Dear god, no. The poor girl is having it hard as it is T.T)

If the accident struck anyone, I think it would be Akiko. The Ayu-Route Tragedy seems to be a tree-accident, so I now also suspect the Nayuki Route Tragedy will be the vehicle accident. However, the Tragedy has to be something which doesn't severely incapacitate Nayuki (e.g. no coma; no extended hospitalization), because then her character can't be developed. Also, anything minor (i.e. less than incapacitating) might not make for a very strong plot-point. Hence, I think the Tragedy has to occur to Akiko.

There's one exception to this reasoning. Kyo-Ani/Key might play the angle where Nayuki gets hit by a car and injures her legs, hence dealing a blow to one of her major activities (i.e. running). This could serve as a catalyst for character development, but I don't think this is a probable angle. Kanon Tragedies are heavy duty things, not leg-breakers. Something more heavy duty (e.g. spinal injury) would limit Nayuki's mobility too much, making her storyline potentially stale--from a game developer's point of view, I probably wouldn't take this angle.

Therefore: I'm wagering on an Akiko vehicle accident being the Nayuki Route Tragedy.

Originally Posted by Skyfall

Also i personally think that my previous theory about Ayu having to choose between herself and Akiko via her last wish got a boost in my books, seeing that she, aparantly, spent her second wish and has only one left .... i don't know why, but i certainly believe that there is going to be a lot of angst over that last wish.

Ayu turning out to be some sort of a spirit/ghost was not unexpected. And i still think that she is lying in a coma from falling down the tree... and she will have to spend that last wish choosing between herself waking up OR saving Akiko

Hrrrm. I think that giving the angel doll's wishes actual power might be a bit too much. Also, I think the game routes were separate, so it wouldn't make sense for the angel doll of Ayu's route to have the power to heal Akiko in Nayuki's route. Moreover, I can't see Kyo-Ani interweaving the routes in a way that would (afaik) depart from the game so much. I think we have pretty solid agreement/consensus on the coma theory though.

Originally Posted by Skyfall

Also my hopes for a Nayuki ending have gone down the drain after ep20 (Ya right, as if i didn't know that is not going to happen before that ) ... seems pretty impossible to have her "win" at this point ... unless she indeed gets hit by a car and is in a life/death situation, and Yuuichi goes trough some "most important person to me" crisis

I feel your pain. My Nayuki-ending hopes are dashed. ;_; I'd wager on an Ayu ending, though I'd be delighted if I lost that bet.

Although, if Ayu dies then I can see the other girls getting a chance. But after Yuuichi confessed to Ayu, I think his character has become too heavily committed for him to plausibly hook up with another girl during the series. The only way I can see a solid Yuuichi X [Non-Ayu Girl] ending is if they pull a 'years-later' epilogue. Otherwise, it's definitely not happening.

[Ascaloth]

Eh, heh, heh. As of this point onwards, watching the speculations of the first-timers is only going to get more and more interesting.

Eh heh heh.

[justinstrife]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

Eh, heh, heh. As of this point onwards, watching the speculations of the first-timers is only going to get more and more interesting.

Eh heh heh.

Agreed. I've not posted in this thread until now as I have enjoyed immensely all the theories that have grown from everyone in here. It's been rather fascinating really, and I encourage the posters to go back and re-read the earlier posts and see how much evolution their ideas have gone through. Very fascinating, and quite cool in my opinion.

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by justinstrife

Agreed. I've not posted in this thread until now as I have enjoyed immensely all the theories that have grown from everyone in here. It's been rather fascinating really, and I encourage the posters to go back and re-read the earlier posts and see how much evolution their ideas have gone through. Very fascinating, and quite cool in my opinion.

In fact, some of those speculations were so original, that IMO, whoever came up with those should consider a career move into the authorship of similar stories, using their own ideas. I would really love to see original works springing from these ideas.....as long as it's an original premise on their own part, and not just a "Toei-class remake" fusing an entirely different storyline altogether into a previous existing work.

That's why, to be honest, I really dislike Toei at this point; no matter how good the new storywriting, if it is portrayed through a previous title with its own premise, I can only see it as a ripoff. Toei Kanon was such an example, and it wasn't even particularly outstanding. Toei AIR was better, and I could see it being a good story if it used its own original premises......but since it was a hackjob onto an existing premise, it ended up only a hackjob in my eyes, to the point where I could only stand half an hour of it before I cut-and-ran on it. Therefore, even though I'm very interested in knowing CLANNAD's storyline, I'm not going to go near the upcoming TOEI CLANNAD with a ten-foot pole, because I know I'm not going to get the original storyline with it.

And.....I think I'm increasingly getting out of point here. Sorry, guys. Back to the main discussion.

[Grey]

Idea: Ayu is actually dead, and the doctor seemingly recognizing Ayu at the hospital really was 'nothing' (hey, maybe the doctor was just reminded of a niece of her's or something). No comatose Ayu. Instead, Ayu's actually dead and was searching for: (1) her grave, (2) her angel doll, or (3) something metaphorical (see below). However, now that she's recognized that she isn't 'real', the pull of death is strong and her spirit-form will soon dissipate. Also, perhaps if she doesn't find what she is searching for then her spirit won't be able to rest properly and enter the afterlife (i.e. her spirit simply vanishes, or goes to a realm of tormented souls).

Addendum to Idea: Ayu's school is in 'heaven'. Think about what she's said about it. She can go to school and leave whenever she likes, she is served taiyaki there, and she has friends there.... If Ayu died when she had the tree accident, then she thinks the school is over by the tree because that's where her 'portal to heaven' is. Of course, the 'heaven school' theory implies that Ayu can go back and forth from the afterlife. In this case, Ayu's missing item probably isn't her body/grave, but might be her angel doll.

Missing Item - Metaphorical?: maybe we've been on the wrong track, and what Ayu is missing is something more metaphorical like 'love' or 'contentedness'. She's not staying in the 'heaven' afterlife because she's not satisfied with how things ended in her earthly life.

Yuuichi suffering from trauma-based amnesia makes even more sense if Ayu actually died seven years ago.

I don't completely believe this, but wouldn't that be a kicker? 'False clues' like the doctor's recognition could result in really off-the-mark speculations. If we speculate that the doctor's recognition was really a 'false clue', then the Dead-Ayu theory suddenly becomes quite plausible. Moreover, it was noted earlier that there are some problems with the 'doctor recognizes Ayu because she's comatose in the hospital' scenario. The 'false clue' possibility fits with these objections.

So what do you guys think? Were Ayu's fear of hospitals and the doctor's recognition of her 'false clues'?

-----------

Come to think of it, I didn't speculate on why Ayu thought she didn't have much time left (i.e. she wouldn't be able to meet up with Yuuichi again). Here are some possibilities:

1. The hospital's going to pull the plug on comatose Ayu, hence spirit-Ayu 'sensed' that she will soon vanish too.
2. Spirit-Ayu won't be able to manifest because she's recognized that she's not real. Think of it as a 'law of the supernatural' (e.g. you don't fall until you recognize there's no ground beneath your feet). (Compatible with both 'dead-Ayu' and 'comatose-Ayu' hypotheses.)
3. Spirit-Ayu's ability to manifest is getting weaker. She needs to get back to her body soon (i.e. find her missing item?), and if she doesn't her spirit will dissipate and her body will die. (No guarantee that she'll wake up even if the spirit returns to the body).

What would be interesting of Spirit-Ayu starts thinking she's dead but doesn't realize that she's only comatose.

That's all I can think of for now.

[Richard 23]

Originally Posted by Dani Maxwell

Ah, a question that doesn't really belong here but it's related somehow... is "Air" any good at all? I remember watching 1 or 2 eps, falling asleep, and then deleting it... but it's a Key/KyoAni work... should I try watching it again?

Not out of place at all. I discovered Air by accident on one of those WinAmp anime channels. Since then, I've watched it every couple of months and it never gets old.

I suggest you brew some coffee or carmel ice mochas before you try again if it's too slow for you at the beginning. If you like Kanon, you should enjoy Air, or else!

I'd skip the movie for now. It was kinda meh, and a major straying from Air's story in my opinion. Be sure to check it out again and also get the 2 episode Air in Summer special if you like what you see.

You can pretty much skip episode 13. It's a recrap. I HATE recaps.

[FatPianoBoy]

Everyone's pretty much hit all my theories so far, but I'll just pull them all together anyway:

Second wish: Ayu wished to go to school with Yuuichi.
Where is she now?: Six feet under. We're looking at her ghost. I don't like the idea of the Ayu we see being the astral manifestation of her while she's in a coma because that's been used in another Key work.
How did she die?: Fell out of the tree. The tree was cut down after a ten-year-old girl plunged to her death from it.
What is she looking for?: The doll. Why would she care where her body was? She doesn't even seem to realize she's dead.
Cars: No comment. I got spoiled.

It also seems to me that Nayuki does remember everything and is being extremely cruel and manipulative right now. I seriously doubt she would have dressed up Ayu like that to give her competition moe points. Does she somehow know about the school and want Ayu to take Yuuichi there, knowing what kind of havoc it'll cause?

Edit: I just noticed something: Yuuichi is wearing Ayu's coat in that scene at the tree just before Ayu makes her second wish. Maybe her second wish is actually "catch me"

[Anacone]

After first scene of ep 6 I have been hoping that OPs Ayu with Angel wings won't be/came true.

[Riker]

Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy

Cars: No comment. I got spoiled.

Me too.

Sucks when you get spoiled while you're not seeking the spoilers. ;__;

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy

What is she looking for?: The doll. Why would she care where her body was? She doesn't even seem to realize she's dead.
Cars: No comment. I got spoiled.

maybe if she can find her doll she can also find either her 1) hospital ridden body or 2) coffin ~

i would think that its logical for ayu to have the doll in her pocket even after death or be that shes still holding it while in a coma or something

and the cars bit ~ its only speculation!! i find the tree theory more convincing anyway

[FatPianoBoy]

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

maybe if she can find her doll she can also find either her 1) hospital ridden body or 2) coffin ~

i would think that its logical for ayu to have the doll in her pocket even after death or be that shes still holding it while in a coma or something

and the cars bit ~ its only speculation!! i find the tree theory more convincing anyway

I like that idea. It would make sense, since she seems to have no leads on its location and is just looking in random places.

Cars: I know all about the cars. I know it's speculation

[Grey]

Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy

What is she looking for?: The doll. Why would she care where her body was? She doesn't even seem to realize she's dead.

At the same time, why would the doll be more important to her than Yuuichi? When she realizes that she's not real and that she might not have much time left (episode 20) she immediately feels that it's important to find her item...but wouldn't the natural response be to spend as much time with her loved one (i.e. Yuuichi) as possible?

If Real-Ayu=Comatose then: spirit-Ayu needs to find her body; if body and spirit are not united, then she certainly dies. If Body is found then: life, and maybe or maybe not recovery from coma.

If Real-Ayu=Dead then: no need to find the body/grave. Since I theorize that she's already made it to a 'heaven' afterlife in my previous post, she doesn't need to meet up with her body/grave to achieve a restful death. Instead, she needs to cut off what ties her to the earthly world (i.e. make a last wish on the angel doll?; achieve some state of contentedness that is metaphorized as a 'missing item'?).

[FatPianoBoy]

Originally Posted by Grey

At the same time, why would the doll be more important to her than Yuuichi? When she realizes that she's not real and that she might not have much time left (episode 20) she immediately feels that it's important to find her item...but wouldn't the natural response be to spend as much time with her loved one (i.e. Yuuichi) as possible?

At some point she says exactly that: whatever she's looking for doesn't matter, since she must not need it in order to be happy. It's only after she sees the tree stump and her empty backpack that she starts freaking out. Maybe she had a sudden urge to prove her existence after realizing that her school, friends, classes, and everything she thought she'd been doing every day for the last few years was all imaginary. Of course, she can't prove her existence, and realizing this, she vanishes.

If Real-Ayu=Dead then: no need to find the body/grave. Since I theorize that she's already made it to a 'heaven' afterlife in my previous post, she doesn't need to meet up with her body/grave to achieve a restful death. Instead, she needs to cut off what ties her to the earthly world (i.e. make a last wish on the angel doll?; achieve some state of contentedness that is metaphorized as a 'missing item'?).

I also suspect that Ayu never made a third wish, and that that's what's binding her to this world

[Grey]

Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy

At some point she says exactly that: whatever she's looking for doesn't matter, since she must not need it in order to be happy. It's only after she sees the tree stump and her empty backpack that she starts freaking out.

Hmmm. Do you think Ayu's thought processes are something like this?: (1) I've been searching for a missing item that is important, but I don't know what it is nor why it's important. (2) I found Yuuichi and have been happy, so maybe I don't have to search for the item. (3) I've suddenly learned that I've got screwed up memories and I may not exist. (4) I knew there was a reason I felt the missing item was important! It has something to do with this madness...I must find it!

I think I could buy this. Tying the urge to 'prove her existence' to 'finding the missing item' seems a bit tricky. However, if there was a mysterious thing that she always felt was important and that she had to find...and suddenly she realizes she's some supernatural, not-alive thing, she might suddenly pay a whole lot more attention to that strange urge to find the mysterious item.

Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy

I also suspect that Ayu never made a third wish, and that that's what's binding her to this world

I can see this being the case. There's still something that she wants to wish for, but she needs that doll for the wish to be 'right'. Maybe Ayu will simply tell Yuuichi the wish at near the finale, and that will allow her to depart (or she'll be miraculously revived?).


offtopic:

Originally Posted by Riker

Sucks when you get spoiled while you're not seeking the spoilers. ;__;

Yeah, I got burned by spoilers too. I mean, how many first-time viewers didn't know that almost everyone familiar with the series thought Ayu Route/Ending is/was going to be the main, canon Ending/Route? (No pun intended).

I almost was burned by a 'car' spoiler, but a lot of the posts surrounding it were ridiculous so I was still left not knowing what to believe. Still, I admit that even cruising the episode thread leave me with darned 'hints' which are totally spoilers insofar as they point your speculations in a rather specific direction.

[AvatarST]

You know, there's spoiler tags.

Spoiler:

Like these ones.

You use them like this: [ spoiler]text goes here[ /spoiler]

Remove the spaces of course. Dunno, thought you might want to know if you have to make another post like that.

See you 'round.

[Grey]

AvatarST: Eh? Use spoilers if who makes a post like what? As far as I know, everything posted has discussed only Kanon (2006) episodes that have already aired, or has been speculation and theorizing. Although if you're asking for episode-labelled spoiler tags, I suppose I could retro-actively label things. I'd forgotten to put them in since I assumed--and it seemed like--everyone reading the latest speculation would have watched the latest episode.

[AvatarST]

No, no...I wasn't criticizing you in the least. I wasn't saying you could spoil anyone, either, or that you needed to go back and mark spoilers.

I was referring to the fact that you made your last part of the post in a smaller font, so I thought perhaps you didn't know there were spoiler tags in case you wanted to hide something. I was just trying to be informative, you could say.

Seeing your join date, though, I imagine you already knew about this, so my apologies for sticking my nose into it.

[FatPianoBoy]

Originally Posted by Grey

Hmmm. Do you think Ayu's thought processes are something like this?: (1) I've been searching for a missing item that is important, but I don't know what it is nor why it's important. (2) I found Yuuichi and have been happy, so maybe I don't have to search for the item. (3) I've suddenly learned that I've got screwed up memories and I may not exist. (4) I knew there was a reason I felt the missing item was important! It has something to do with this madness...I must find it!

I think I could buy this. Tying the urge to 'prove her existence' to 'finding the missing item' seems a bit tricky. However, if there was a mysterious thing that she always felt was important and that she had to find...and suddenly she realizes she's some supernatural, not-alive thing, she might suddenly pay a whole lot more attention to that strange urge to find the mysterious item.

That's almost exactly what I think she was thinking.
As for "proving her existence," that would go something like: "The school isn't there, my books aren't there, but if I can find whatever I'm looking for then at least I'll know I haven't completely gone off my rocker."

Maybe Ayu will simply tell Yuuichi the wish at near the finale, and that will allow her to depart (or she'll be miraculously revived?).

Revived? We already got one "get out of depression free" card with Mai. I doubt we'll get another one.

Originally Posted by AvatarST

You know, there's spoiler tags.

Spoiler:

Like these ones.

You use them like this: [ spoiler]text goes here[ /spoiler]

Remove the spaces of course. Dunno, thought you might want to know if you have to make another post like that.

See you 'round.

But a problem arises when people tag things that don't need to be tagged and don't label them, so you get used to just clicking on tags that aren't marked. When someone doens't mark a serious bomb, it ends in tears because we think it's just an episode-specific comment or speculation.

[AvatarST]

But a problem arises when people tag things that don't need to be tagged and don't label them, so you get used to just clicking on tags that aren't marked. When someone doens't mark a serious bomb, it ends in tears because we think it's just an episode-specific comment or speculation.

I guess so. Since he used a smaller font, I just thought maybe he was new to the forum and didn't know of their existence, so I informed him. Like I said, I was just trying to be nice and ended up sticking my nose in, so ignore me.

Either way, I agree that labeling spoilers is important. Else you don't know if it's safe to click or not.