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Old 2012-12-20, 21:12   Link #3301
Duo Maxwell
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Although I've notice Saki from the beginning, I must say her popularity after the main cast is surprising for a character without a single line. To me she actually has much more presence than the whole first year girls because I always try to see what she's doing when the first year group gets their screen time.

Another mystery is Saori's need to be popular. I mean, I thought from the beginning that she's must be one of those girl who's popular with boys. She has style, knows how to cook, is caring, has something that I'd call a mother figure, yet she's unpopular?
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Old 2012-12-20, 21:14   Link #3302
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiaki_chan View Post
this is true but good even if it happens it would be too much to hope that she speaks haha
Saki wouldn't be as interesting if she actually spoke.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FredFriendly View Post
but she should not have allowed her troops get so miserably depressed in the first place. If anything, she should have performed that silly dance much, much sooner, or at least given them a rousing speech, or something...
It's hard to keep people's morale up in the best of times, and they were in a real predicament. In real life, the German army faced similar conditions in Winter 1941, and their morale plummeted despite having the best and most experienced junior officers and NCOs in the world. I'd say that Miho did a great job given what she had to work with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panzerklein View Post
They're not real ammunition, they don't cause casuality for tank crew, they can't be killed by just shot, useless they fall to river or cliff (real world sport accidents can cause death too), but in that situation no matter you in bumper car or tank, you may be dead. So it is still sport, and girls are playing.
While your statement is mostly correct, it's more dangerous than it looks. The Type 89 was on fire when it was knocked out by the Sherman Firefly. Even the most hardcore tankers were terrified when that happened.

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Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell View Post
Another mystery is Saori's need to be popular. I mean, I thought from the beginning that she's must be one of those girl who's popular with boys. She has style, knows how to cook, is caring, has something that I'd call a mother figure, yet she's unpopular?
The answer is obvious - Saori has never actually met a boy.
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Old 2012-12-20, 21:19   Link #3303
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Lots of talking going on. I want to throw following fuels into the fire

1. Comparing this Girls & Panzer to movie "Top Gun" ?

2. If you study the best military leaders in the history, you will see that they all made plenty of mistakes. Their strength was that they were usually quicker than others to recognize their mistake and address it.

3. One of the mistake I like to point out for Miho is her not calling for aids and resources in her attempt to save the people in the tank sinking in the river. She dove into dangerous waters alone without telling anyone, which wasn't wise.

4. I do see many flaws with how many of the characters were designed. While these character and plot holes are evident, I am enjoying the whole series in spite of these flaws.
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Old 2012-12-20, 21:30   Link #3304
Kamui04
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
The answer is obvious - Saori has never actually met a boy.
Which poses some interesting questions. The ship as we know it, is dedicated to the Oarai Girls Highschool.

Do boys live and go to school in the same ship, or are there ships for boys and they are segregated?

Since Utsugi Yuuki (the 1st year radio comm) mentioned having a boyfriend in ep 1 and in ep 5 he dumped her. Was it a long distance relationship or was he living in the Oarai ship?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wontaek View Post

3. One of the mistake I like to point out for Miho is her not calling for aids and resources in her attempt to save the people in the tank sinking in the river. She dove into dangerous waters alone without telling anyone, which wasn't wise.
Well, that scene was shown as a flashback and between Miho reaction, a cut to the tank in the water and her jumping down, there's 5 seconds where we don't know if she said anything to her teammates or not and they stopped the tank anyways. So I give it the benefit of the doubt.

Last edited by Kamui04; 2012-12-20 at 21:40.
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Old 2012-12-20, 21:38   Link #3305
Duo Maxwell
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It'd be weird for a ship that has male civilian and there is no boy.
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Old 2012-12-20, 21:49   Link #3306
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Originally Posted by wontaek View Post
1. Comparing this Girls & Panzer to movie "Top Gun" ?
Spoiler for This won't make sense unless you watched the earliest subs:

Even then it might not make sense.
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Old 2012-12-20, 21:58   Link #3307
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Originally Posted by Panzerklein View Post
They're not real ammunition, they don't cause casuality for tank crew, they can't be killed by just shot, useless they fall to river or cliff (real world sport accidents can cause death too), but in that situation no matter you in bumper car or tank, you may be dead. So it is still sport, and girls are playing.
The ammo is stepped-down from the live rounds used in real tanks, and there is that mysterious "carbon-layering" underneath the armor, but those rounds are still no joke. Anyone outside the tank who took a round of that would die, and even on the inside the way the 38 (t) got flipped around when it was hit it not to be taken lightly, since they don't have seatbelts in those things. Falling wrong could result in broken bones or broken necks. Would result in them, if this were a darker show, but fortunately for us that's not the atmosphere they're going for. Still, those guns should not be taken lightly.

Quote:
Another mystery is Saori's need to be popular. I mean, I thought from the beginning that she's must be one of those girl who's popular with boys. She has style, knows how to cook, is caring, has something that I'd call a mother figure, yet she's unpopular?
Actually, I have a suspicion that she's insecure. She talks a lot about about boys and all the ways to impress them and tries to act like she's good with them, but when pressed we discover that she's never had a boyfriend? I suspect she gets nervous around them and hasn't actually been able to follow through. And being in a girls' school of course means there aren't enough boys around her normally for them to realize what a great catch she is and try confessing to her.

Quote:
2. If you study the best military leaders in the history, you will see that they all made plenty of mistakes. Their strength was that they were usually quicker than others to recognize their mistake and address it.
Indeed. A lot of the tactical mistakes people call Miho out on, folks should remember these are real tactical maneuvers that have been used successfully against against real tank commanders, colonels, even generals at times. Real people who have had real military training and experience have made these errors.

Quote:
Although I've notice Saki from the beginning, I must say her popularity after the main cast is surprising for a character without a single line. To me she actually has much more presence than the whole first year girls because I always try to see what she's doing when the first year group gets their screen time.
But... she never speaks. She has no presence at all. For me the girl with the glasses is the obvious iconic character for the first years, and I was astounded to discover that some spacey kid that I didn't even remember seeing on the team had somehow become the popular one.
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Old 2012-12-20, 22:01   Link #3308
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If you think about it, Miho isn't very strong as a strategic thinker. Most of her plans, while generally sound, tend to not work out very well.

That said, where her gifting lies is recognising that no plan survives contact with the enemy - I've seen plenty of anime characters shut down because their plans aren't working - and she can adapt, improvise, and overcome.

So, in conclusion: Miho is not so hot on strategy, but she is good at tactics and playing it by ear.
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Old 2012-12-20, 22:04   Link #3309
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Originally Posted by aldw View Post
One of the best historical examples of amateurs fighting as well as professionals is Nathan Bedford Forrest's Cavalry force during the Civil War, considering that he never served in the army prior to that (then again, the whole US Civil War was an example of amateurs becoming veterans).
Nathan's cavalry force in first battle is "green" because the first time they come to battle. But, most of they was learn to ride long time ago and was training at least many months before they were sent to battlefield, they're not amatuer but full trained cavalrymen, just "green" on battlefield. Nathan himself is a strongmen with 1.88m tall, he need lesser time to train to compare to other soldiers.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post


While your statement is mostly correct, it's more dangerous than it looks. The Type 89 was on fire when it was knocked out by the Sherman Firefly. Even the most hardcore tankers were terrified when that happened.
A tank in fire mostly dangerous because ammo, the fuel is rarely explose, thus tankers usually get out quick before the ammo explose, but Senshado's ammunition is special, I don't think they will got explose by fire, so the girls are calm and exhaust the fire.
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Old 2012-12-20, 22:07   Link #3310
LoweGear
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Panzerklein View Post
They're not real ammunition, they don't cause casuality for tank crew, they can't be killed by just shot, useless they fall to river or cliff (real world sport accidents can cause death too), but in that situation no matter you in bumper car or tank, you may be dead. So it is still sport, and girls are playing.
But they are live ammunition, as stated by Yukari in episode 2. However, the lack of casualties is due to two things (speculation unless otherwise stated):

1. The ammunition is regulated by the League to certain standards as implied by the official rules. This is likely to imply that the rounds are modified either in the actual bullets fired or in the propellant or both. The effect is to reduce the effective penetration value while still retaining most of their ballistic properties.

2. The stated "Carbon Coating", which is implied to provide a level of protection for the tank crew that can protect against lethal penetrations. Thus as long as the crew is inside the tank, they're safe from any weapon's fire coming their way.

While I don't think GuP is gonna go into the subject of death, the official rules mention that accidentally killing someone is grounds for disqualification (well obviously ), and there's nothing in the portrayal of the rounds in the anime that suggests that the tanks rounds they use are non-lethal. Miho's only response to Saori's query on getting hit is that she's unlikely to get hit; she doesn't mention what happens if she does get hit, which we assume to be particularly gory.

Besides, these are rounds that destroy buildings and can shatter steel, it doesn't take much to see that these rounds quite live and lethal. They even have actual High-Explosive (HE) rounds available to them - see that scene where Hana shoots that snowbank. (Note on that scene: HE rounds do contain fuses that can be adjusted for time to detonation. Thus the shell going into the snow and then exploding after a few moments later is actually correct).
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Old 2012-12-20, 22:08   Link #3311
Duo Maxwell
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A good team leader is someone who can adapt tactic based on situation. Miho is a good leader. We have strategist to worry about something bigger like strategy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Random Wanderer View Post
But... she never speaks. She has no presence at all. For me the girl with the glasses is the obvious iconic character for the first years, and I was astounded to discover that some spacey kid that I didn't even remember seeing on the team had somehow become the popular one.
That's the kind of presence I was talking about. For some reasons people are paying more attention to character that keep appearing but has no impact to the surrounding. I thought I'm just one of the few who took notice to something like that, but she's actually popular on /a/ and has quite a few fanarts on pixiv compare to other 1st year girls.
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Old 2012-12-20, 22:15   Link #3312
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell View Post
That's the kind of presence I was talking about. For some reasons people are paying more attention to character that keep appearing but has no impact to the surrounding. I thought I'm just one of the few who took notice to something like that, but she's actually popular on /a/ and has quite a few fanarts on pixiv compare to other 1st year girls.
The speculation is that she sees through the 4th wall. So she isn't staring at air, but at the outside world or the like. And that whenever she is in a poster, she stares at the background patterns
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Old 2012-12-20, 22:16   Link #3313
Chiaki_chan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Saki wouldn't be as interesting if she actually spoke.
this is true I find it cute and interesting precisely because it is always the head in the clouds
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Old 2012-12-20, 22:17   Link #3314
Panzerklein
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Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
But they are live ammunition, as stated by Yukari in episode 2. However, the lack of casualties is due to two things (speculation unless otherwise stated):

1. The ammunition is regulated by the League to certain standards as implied by the official rules. This is likely to imply that the rounds are modified either in the actual bullets fired or in the propellant or both. The effect is to reduce the effective penetration value while still retaining most of their ballistic properties.

2. The stated "Carbon Coating", which is implied to provide a level of protection for the tank crew that can protect against lethal penetrations. Thus as long as the crew is inside the tank, they're safe from any weapon's fire coming their way.

While I don't think GuP is gonna go into the subject of death, the official rules mention that accidentally killing someone is grounds for disqualification (well obviously ), and there's nothing in the portrayal of the rounds in the anime that suggests that the tanks rounds they use are non-lethal. Miho's only response to Saori's query on getting hit is that she's unlikely to get hit; she doesn't mention what happens if she does get hit, which we assume to be particularly gory.

Besides, these are rounds that destroy buildings and can shatter steel, it doesn't take much to see that these rounds quite live and lethal. They even have actual High-Explosive (HE) rounds available to them - see that scene where Hana shoots that snowbank. (Note on that scene: HE rounds do contain fuses that can be adjusted for time to detonation. Thus the shell going into the snow and then exploding after a few moments later is actually correct).
Ammunition is live but still not as same as WW2's real ones . If not, they never allow JagdTiger because it's 128mm can go through even King Tiger from "front door" to "back door" . If it use real ammunition to shoot Type 89, it will shred Type 89 and our Studen Councill girls will be "rest in pieces" .
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Old 2012-12-20, 22:17   Link #3315
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Regards amateurs, there's a report in Armor Magazine that in 1992, a Brigade that was victorious in Iraq (first Gulf War) went to the National Training Center and got their asses kicked...

Not by OPFOR, the best-trained and most experienced fighting formation in the US Army, but by a company of National Guardsmen. Weekend warriors. (To be fair, the NG boys had gotten an intensive training course from OPFOR, and the parameters of the excercise were simulating Soviet conscripts taking on experienced US Army vets.)
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Old 2012-12-20, 22:20   Link #3316
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Spoiler for Yukari:



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Old 2012-12-20, 22:29   Link #3317
Panzerklein
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Regards amateurs, there's a report in Armor Magazine that in 1992, a Brigade that was victorious in Iraq (first Gulf War) went to the National Training Center and got their asses kicked...

Not by OPFOR, the best-trained and most experienced fighting formation in the US Army, but by a company of National Guardsmen. Weekend warriors. (To be fair, the NG boys had gotten an intensive training course from OPFOR, and the parameters of the excercise were simulating Soviet conscripts taking on experienced US Army vets.)
Which brigade? Even if they're just National Guardmen, they're still trained despite can't be as same as Navy SEAL or Delta before they were sent. Not just find and pick up to the tank like B1 Chas, Chi-Nu and Tiger P team.
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Old 2012-12-20, 22:35   Link #3318
Magewolf
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I think there are three problems that have undermined Miho leading her team.


One is that she lacks command presence.She lacks the force of personalty to control her team naturally. That is why Momo was able to take over at the start of their first match even though she is an idiot.


Another is that she lacks the will to enforce discipline on her team mates.And before someone starts talking about how this is just a game let me just point out that you would never see that kind of half-assed running around with any high school football,baseball, or basketball team and they are all games.


If you put her two first faults together you can see that they make it very hard for her to be any kind of effective leader.

Her last problem is the she is only a so-so strategist .All of her prematch plans that we have seen have been very basic and uninspired.


But she also has her strengths.She can lead from example and she is good at forming bonds with her teammates.And most importantly she is a great tactician.All of their wins have come from her ability to react to the fast changing tides of battle and chart out a way through them.

I think that she is more suited to being a second in command.She could be the mother figure for a more stern and imposing leader while keeping up team morale.And I think she would really shine at front line of battle carrying out her orders in her own way while having her commander in the back looking at the big picture.
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Old 2012-12-20, 22:42   Link #3319
Panzerklein
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Those very basic plans are actually were used by many real-life tank commanders. Because strategy is not something as god tier, most of them are very basic things but still many commander fail to used them or other commanders used them successful. In battle, most general set up basic strategy and depend on situations, they change strategy and tactics.
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Old 2012-12-20, 22:52   Link #3320
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In battle, most general set up basic strategy and depend on situations, they change strategy and tactics.
That's actually a misconception: Most military leaders do NOT change according to the situation, either because they don't recognize the situation, cannot react fast enough, or cannot think of the alternative strategies. The reason why we have "great" generals is because they are the ones that can overcome the limitation of ordinary generals.
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