AnimeSuki Forums

kitten320 · 2013-01-13, 20:56

^Doesn't matter if he is MC or not. Fact remains the fact that he was weaker but gradually became/becomes stronger than Erza.

Erza is also a main heroine who gets a lot of pluses that other charas don't.

Besides its a real life factor.

There are those who develop much faster and stronger than others. In my judo group there are two guys who are like killing machine. I barely ever see anyone give them lots of trouble yet they don't always have first places.

Great sport stars like Tyson. He is one of the greatest boxers yet he still lost several times.
There is no such thing as being invincible, Erza was meant to lose at some point.

Going by my own experience, when I was 13-14 I had to have a match against a student who was around 21. She won the match but I gave her very tough time and she was totally amazed and praised me. However, before match started she snickered at me for obvious reasons. What could a child possibly do to her?
In a year time I managed to get on equal ground with her.

Later I had massive injury and was out of proper training for around 3-4 years. When I began training properly again, I was over powered. My opponents/team mates were/are part of national team who train almost every day while I only trained about twice a week. However less than in a year I managed to catch up to some of them and even win and I'm not even a prodigy! And those people are strong who had won huge amount of medals.

If I could catch up in less than a year with small amount of training, imagine what a prodigy could achieve with proper training in that time?!

Saying that Kagura can't be stronger than Erza is a simple denial that you Erza fans can't seem to accept.
Just face it, Erza is not invincible, she is not a god!

Ryus · 2013-01-13, 23:57

I'm not an Erza fan.

I'm not denying Kagura can't be strong.

I'm denying that its likely based on all the previous statements and Hiro repeatedly giving Erza endless plot armor. He's always willing to beat her up for a chapter or two but never does he let her lose. In short we've seen this all before, so its a case of fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me.

IMHO it's you denying hiro hyping antagonists way too much then pulling the rug out from under them to make them shrubs all for the sake of Erza (hence why I'm not a fan of hers)

Let me repeat though, I'm only saying Kagura's back story is weak and kinda forced. As a result it seemingly flies in the face of logic of Kagura being from a weakly powered magic family, yet now beyond Erza level... also she traveled everywhere searching for her brother in her poor girl outfit and finds Millianna, yet somehow 6 and change years later they're in an all girl guild with Millianna being still kinda weak but Kagura being a beast yet both seemingly joining that guild for the sake of revenge against Jellal... yeah great writing Hiro... like most of us don't now suspect the sword being the reason for her power being as strong as it is as a possible explanation (not saying it is... could just be bad writing or something else)

And on another note... denying main Characters don't follow a different logic in a shojen

oh and the sports 'analogies' are really strawman arguments

Kaijo · 2013-01-14, 09:13

I'll repeat again, that I have a feeling Kagura's sword is a magic item that is enhancing her power. Given a world of magic, it is not unlikely to find a magic item that gives one a lot of strength.

I'll also warn against thinking there are hard and fast power levels in this series. If you want that sort of thing, check out Dragonball Z. While power does play a role here, so does circumstance, tactics, and plain ole luck. Whether Natsu, or Erza, or Kagura wins, depends on multiple factors; not just strength.

Ryus · 2013-01-14, 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I'll repeat again, that I have a feeling Kagura's sword is a magic item that is enhancing her power. Given a world of magic, it is not unlikely to find a magic item that gives one a lot of strength.

I'll also warn against thinking there are hard and fast power levels in this series. If you want that sort of thing, check out Dragonball Z. While power does play a role here, so does circumstance, tactics, and plain ole luck. Whether Minerva, or Erza, or Kagura wins, depends on multiple factors; not just strength.

Fixed the mistake in your post... Natsu's not participating in their fight

Other than that I agree, mostly, but nakama and feelings need to be mentioned to in this series too, since in this series they can raise or drop a character a tier in a moment. In the case of Erza vs Kagura, Erza seems to have dropped due to thinking of her past while Kagura's power rose due to Millianna's situation and seems to be rising again due to Erza's confession... so I'm suspicious of what base Erza really is vs base Kagura. Plus based on Hiro's track record of hyping things to an extreme, Erza could power up any moment now.

Kaijo · 2013-01-14, 10:55

I was more referring to the general idea of "If Natsu and Erza fought, who would win?" Not that Natsu will get in on this current fight.

Ryus · 2013-01-14, 15:55

Lolz at the misunderstanding

Right now, I'd say 50/50 circumstance would determin the winner. Neither right now is clearly stronger or weaker, even with LFD and Flame/Lightning Empress Armor thrown into the mixture

kitten320 · 2013-01-14, 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryus

Let me repeat though, I'm only saying Kagura's back story is weak and kinda forced. As a result it seemingly flies in the face of logic of Kagura being from a weakly powered magic family, yet now beyond Erza level... also she traveled everywhere searching for her brother in her poor girl outfit and finds Millianna, yet somehow 6 and change years later they're in an all girl guild with Millianna being still kinda weak but Kagura being a beast yet both seemingly joining that guild for the sake of revenge against Jellal... yeah great writing Hiro... like most of us don't now suspect the sword being the reason for her power being as strong as it is as a possible explanation (not saying it is... could just be bad writing or something else)

You are clearly not listening... just because their family didn't have strong mages it doesn't mean that she has to be weak too...

There are lots of famous people who come from normal families with no real skills yet chidren happen to be talented and become stars.

That especially is very common among musicians/artists.
Though same in sports, the family is normal but their kid is a karate champion or box champion or whatever!

Kids geniuses don't born in smart families, most of them are born in normal family like yours, mine and many others.

And there are cases when family is very talented but their child is hopeless.

Putting a mark on Kagura just because she came from weak family is totally ridiculous!

Whole Erza's gang is of approximately same age yet look how different their power levels are!

Seriously, people don't develop the same. Milliana is clearly a normal mage while Kagura has potential. Be it a sword or not, potential is still there.

And so what that we didn't hear about Mermaid Heel before? Sabartooth also did not exist 7 years ago and now it is the strongest guild in Fiore!

Ryus · 2013-01-14, 19:24

Wow... I'm not listening? Yet you pick only a single point in a long list of problems I saw in her back story to disprove all my points. Then bring up irrelevant points to support your hammering of a single point I made. I'm sorry but that is a strawman argument.

To be clear it was the accumulation of problems and weak back story that gave me pause, plus Hiro's history with Fairy Tail of doing exactly what happened with Kagura with other antagonists, only to 5 seconds later have Erza beat up said antagonist right after hyping them up to the heavens themselves.

If it makes you feel better, sure any joe could be strong if their parents where weak... but that doesn't prove it so either. I'm just looking at the accumulation of facts about her history and saying it still a bit pushing it since too many unlikely events need to be thrown in unles either Erza is holding back, or Kagura is getting a power up. Occum's razor is what my argument is going by, so I fully admit its not proof but imho just more likely. Take that as you will but I'm willing to bet you'll just read what I posted, still disagree, then rage if Kagura loses to Erza in the near future.

And Sabertooth isn't the stongest guild in Fiore, they're losing by a single point atm

Vmem · 2013-01-14, 23:54

Um, not to butt in on a perfectly logical argument guys, but @kitten, you realize that this is a shonen and there is such thing as "shonen logic" right? meaning:

1. almost no character, aside from MCs, are allowed the "rags to riches" road to fame/power/fortune. this means all other characters more or less stick to the state they're born with

2. MCs have infinite plot armor, and Mashima has more than once demonstrated this

Pinwheel10 · 2013-01-15, 02:03

What if Mashima does kill Erza? Or at least maim her. It's not totally impossible; 'cause even if Kagura slices her up this time, there is this time machine that we call the "Eclipse Plan" that could reverse things completely. Plus, it could lead to the unexpected result future Lucy was referring to. That is, if Mashima wishes to push things the extra mile and go completely unpredictable. Just saying

(it's highly unlikely, I know haha)

Taco Bell · 2013-01-15, 04:07

erza better be defeated if the attack hit her. I could understand Erza coming back from the Azuma fight because she needed to get the tree working, but in a tourney where there is still 4 other members and she got destroyed by kagura no way.

That said I still am going with the Minverva subbed in milliana theory.

Vmem · 2013-01-15, 11:52

Given that Erza has more or less replaced Lucy as Mashima's fan service favorite, I doubt he would dare to do anything to her. though I agree with you guys that it would be great story writing if he does

Fenrir_valindri · 2013-01-15, 13:35

I honestly would be quite annoyed if Erza let Kagura off her out of guilt, as this would effectively make her a gigantic hypocrite considering what she told Gerard, and her promise to Natsu back at the Tower of Heaven arc.

I think its fairly clear Erza hasn't gone all out, considering she hasn't even resorted to her best Ex-quips yet, and stopped fighting entirely once Kagura's identity was revealed.

mtgowns · 2013-01-15, 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

I honestly would be quite annoyed if Erza let Kagura off her out of guilt, as this would effectively make her a gigantic hypocrite considering what she told Gerard, and her promise to Natsu back at the Tower of Heaven arc.

I think its fairly clear Erza hasn't gone all out, considering she hasn't even resorted to her best Ex-quips yet, and stopped fighting entirely once Kagura's identity was revealed.

I wouldn't say it's necessarily hypocritical but I think it would be out of her character. She's resolute and has the ability to accept that past deeds can't be undone; plus she's already had her episode of giving up without much of the fight (beginning of the Tower of Heaven arc).

Fenrir_valindri · 2013-01-15, 15:35

Yes, but that episode happened before her character development. The end of the Tower of Heaven arc was very much focused on Erza never doing something as foolish as giving up her life again.

Tempest35 · 2013-01-15, 19:59

Yes, Fenrir, but remember, Erza holds a gigantic Idiot Ball named 'Jellal'.

Anything concerning him lowers her IQ by at least a third so she ends up doing stupid things if she sees no immediate way out.

Natsu, punch some sense into Erza again... Please.

mtgowns · 2013-01-15, 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Yes, but that episode happened before her character development. The end of the Tower of Heaven arc was very much focused on Erza never doing something as foolish as giving up her life again.

I mean, I used the example to say that Erza wouldn't do the same thing in the future because not only her outlook has changed, but the consequences of giving up are ingrained in her.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tempest35

Yes, Fenrir, but remember, Erza holds a gigantic Idiot Ball named 'Jellal'.

Anything concerning him lowers her IQ by at least a third so she ends up doing stupid things if she sees no immediate way out.

Natsu, punch some sense into Erza again... Please.

Jellal is very slack-jawed, but I can't really fault him. All the "evil" he did was not his conscious doing and he likely still can't comprehend how could he driven to do all these things.

..although after hanging out with Ultear for six year, you'd think he would've learned a thing or two about accepting losses and moving on. He needs to make an appointment with Kenshin Himura!

Pinwheel10 · 2013-01-15, 22:46

The thing about Jellal is that he is Erza's weakness. After all the evil that that guy did Erza was still willing to forgive him. Remember that episode in the Tower of Paradise arc, when she finally had him pinned on the floor? Just a little self-pity talk from him and then next thing you know she's hugging him already. Seriously? And in her fight with Kagura, I find it illogical that she claims it was her weakness that killed Simon, that weakness being the fact that she couldn't kill Jellal earlier in their encounter. So it makes it seem that she regrets not killing Jellal back then, but then she's also very glad that he's with her right now. I don't get it. The things love can do to your brain :/

kitten320 · 2013-01-16, 19:09

When exactly did I say that Kagura will win?

I said like 10-20 pages ago before this and other chapters were released that Erza will kick everyones' butt for she is invincible Erza who can't lose. I've raged about this predictable fact many times and still can't believe that authors keep following same cheap logic.

However, just because main characters win does not mean that their opponent is weak. By that logic none of antogoists ever present was strong.
So if a Fairy Tail member is to beat Jura, does it mean that he is weak? Even though all of you are screaming that he is strong now.

And why would I quote and argue on something I agree with?

ReinhartX · 2013-01-16, 23:20

i suddenly thought about this regard kagura and her sword

Spoiler for Comparison to RAVE:

2013-01-13, 20:56	Link #10381
kitten320 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007	^Doesn't matter if he is MC or not. Fact remains the fact that he was weaker but gradually became/becomes stronger than Erza. Erza is also a main heroine who gets a lot of pluses that other charas don't. Besides its a real life factor. There are those who develop much faster and stronger than others. In my judo group there are two guys who are like killing machine. I barely ever see anyone give them lots of trouble yet they don't always have first places. Great sport stars like Tyson. He is one of the greatest boxers yet he still lost several times. There is no such thing as being invincible, Erza was meant to lose at some point. Going by my own experience, when I was 13-14 I had to have a match against a student who was around 21. She won the match but I gave her very tough time and she was totally amazed and praised me. However, before match started she snickered at me for obvious reasons. What could a child possibly do to her? In a year time I managed to get on equal ground with her. Later I had massive injury and was out of proper training for around 3-4 years. When I began training properly again, I was over powered. My opponents/team mates were/are part of national team who train almost every day while I only trained about twice a week. However less than in a year I managed to catch up to some of them and even win and I'm not even a prodigy! And those people are strong who had won huge amount of medals. If I could catch up in less than a year with small amount of training, imagine what a prodigy could achieve with proper training in that time?! Saying that Kagura can't be stronger than Erza is a simple denial that you Erza fans can't seem to accept. Just face it, Erza is not invincible, she is not a god! __________________ My anime list

2013-01-13, 23:57	Link #10382
Ryus The One Eyed King Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Lurking Up Ahead	I'm not an Erza fan. I'm not denying Kagura can't be strong. I'm denying that its likely based on all the previous statements and Hiro repeatedly giving Erza endless plot armor. He's always willing to beat her up for a chapter or two but never does he let her lose. In short we've seen this all before, so its a case of fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me. IMHO it's you denying hiro hyping antagonists way too much then pulling the rug out from under them to make them shrubs all for the sake of Erza (hence why I'm not a fan of hers) Let me repeat though, I'm only saying Kagura's back story is weak and kinda forced. As a result it seemingly flies in the face of logic of Kagura being from a weakly powered magic family, yet now beyond Erza level... also she traveled everywhere searching for her brother in her poor girl outfit and finds Millianna, yet somehow 6 and change years later they're in an all girl guild with Millianna being still kinda weak but Kagura being a beast yet both seemingly joining that guild for the sake of revenge against Jellal... yeah great writing Hiro... like most of us don't now suspect the sword being the reason for her power being as strong as it is as a possible explanation (not saying it is... could just be bad writing or something else) And on another note... denying main Characters don't follow a different logic in a shojen oh and the sports 'analogies' are really strawman arguments __________________ Last edited by Ryus; 2013-01-14 at 00:39.

2013-01-14, 15:55	Link #10386
Ryus The One Eyed King Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Lurking Up Ahead	Lolz at the misunderstanding Right now, I'd say 50/50 circumstance would determin the winner. Neither right now is clearly stronger or weaker, even with LFD and Flame/Lightning Empress Armor thrown into the mixture __________________

2013-01-14, 19:24	Link #10388
Ryus The One Eyed King Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Lurking Up Ahead	Wow... I'm not listening? Yet you pick only a single point in a long list of problems I saw in her back story to disprove all my points. Then bring up irrelevant points to support your hammering of a single point I made. I'm sorry but that is a strawman argument. To be clear it was the accumulation of problems and weak back story that gave me pause, plus Hiro's history with Fairy Tail of doing exactly what happened with Kagura with other antagonists, only to 5 seconds later have Erza beat up said antagonist right after hyping them up to the heavens themselves. If it makes you feel better, sure any joe could be strong if their parents where weak... but that doesn't prove it so either. I'm just looking at the accumulation of facts about her history and saying it still a bit pushing it since too many unlikely events need to be thrown in unles either Erza is holding back, or Kagura is getting a power up. Occum's razor is what my argument is going by, so I fully admit its not proof but imho just more likely. Take that as you will but I'm willing to bet you'll just read what I posted, still disagree, then rage if Kagura loses to Erza in the near future. And Sabertooth isn't the stongest guild in Fiore, they're losing by a single point atm __________________

2013-01-15, 13:35	Link #10393
Fenrir_valindri Miria's #1 Disciple Join Date: Apr 2007	I honestly would be quite annoyed if Erza let Kagura off her out of guilt, as this would effectively make her a gigantic hypocrite considering what she told Gerard, and her promise to Natsu back at the Tower of Heaven arc. I think its fairly clear Erza hasn't gone all out, considering she hasn't even resorted to her best Ex-quips yet, and stopped fighting entirely once Kagura's identity was revealed. __________________

2013-01-14, 09:13	Link #10383
Kaijo Banned Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.	I'll repeat again, that I have a feeling Kagura's sword is a magic item that is enhancing her power. Given a world of magic, it is not unlikely to find a magic item that gives one a lot of strength. I'll also warn against thinking there are hard and fast power levels in this series. If you want that sort of thing, check out Dragonball Z. While power does play a role here, so does circumstance, tactics, and plain ole luck. Whether Natsu, or Erza, or Kagura wins, depends on multiple factors; not just strength.

2013-01-14, 10:55	Link #10385
Kaijo Banned Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.	I was more referring to the general idea of "If Natsu and Erza fought, who would win?" Not that Natsu will get in on this current fight.

2013-01-14, 23:54	Link #10389
Vmem Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2012	Um, not to butt in on a perfectly logical argument guys, but @kitten, you realize that this is a shonen and there is such thing as "shonen logic" right? meaning: 1. almost no character, aside from MCs, are allowed the "rags to riches" road to fame/power/fortune. this means all other characters more or less stick to the state they're born with 2. MCs have infinite plot armor, and Mashima has more than once demonstrated this

2013-01-15, 02:03	Link #10390
Pinwheel10 WHOOSH! Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: A Yellow Submarine Age: 29	What if Mashima does kill Erza? Or at least maim her. It's not totally impossible; 'cause even if Kagura slices her up this time, there is this time machine that we call the "Eclipse Plan" that could reverse things completely. Plus, it could lead to the unexpected result future Lucy was referring to. That is, if Mashima wishes to push things the extra mile and go completely unpredictable. Just saying (it's highly unlikely, I know haha)

2013-01-15, 04:07	Link #10391
Taco Bell Gordita's for Everyone Join Date: Oct 2008	erza better be defeated if the attack hit her. I could understand Erza coming back from the Azuma fight because she needed to get the tree working, but in a tourney where there is still 4 other members and she got destroyed by kagura no way. That said I still am going with the Minverva subbed in milliana theory.

2013-01-15, 11:52	Link #10392
Vmem Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2012	Given that Erza has more or less replaced Lucy as Mashima's fan service favorite, I doubt he would dare to do anything to her. though I agree with you guys that it would be great story writing if he does

2013-01-15, 15:35	Link #10395
Fenrir_valindri Miria's #1 Disciple Join Date: Apr 2007	Yes, but that episode happened before her character development. The end of the Tower of Heaven arc was very much focused on Erza never doing something as foolish as giving up her life again. __________________

2013-01-15, 19:59	Link #10396
Tempest35 Awe of She Author Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Orlando	Yes, Fenrir, but remember, Erza holds a gigantic Idiot Ball named 'Jellal'. Anything concerning him lowers her IQ by at least a third so she ends up doing stupid things if she sees no immediate way out. Natsu, punch some sense into Erza again... Please. __________________ "Focus entirely on me, you ordinary soldier."

2013-01-15, 22:46	Link #10398
Pinwheel10 WHOOSH! Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: A Yellow Submarine Age: 29	The thing about Jellal is that he is Erza's weakness. After all the evil that that guy did Erza was still willing to forgive him. Remember that episode in the Tower of Paradise arc, when she finally had him pinned on the floor? Just a little self-pity talk from him and then next thing you know she's hugging him already. Seriously? And in her fight with Kagura, I find it illogical that she claims it was her weakness that killed Simon, that weakness being the fact that she couldn't kill Jellal earlier in their encounter. So it makes it seem that she regrets not killing Jellal back then, but then she's also very glad that he's with her right now. I don't get it. The things love can do to your brain :/

2013-01-16, 19:09	Link #10399
kitten320 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007	When exactly did I say that Kagura will win? I said like 10-20 pages ago before this and other chapters were released that Erza will kick everyones' butt for she is invincible Erza who can't lose. I've raged about this predictable fact many times and still can't believe that authors keep following same cheap logic. However, just because main characters win does not mean that their opponent is weak. By that logic none of antogoists ever present was strong. So if a Fairy Tail member is to beat Jura, does it mean that he is weak? Even though all of you are screaming that he is strong now. And why would I quote and argue on something I agree with? __________________ My anime list

2013-01-16, 23:20	Link #10400
ReinhartX Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006	i suddenly thought about this regard kagura and her sword Spoiler for Comparison to RAVE: any1 else thought that kagura's sword is RAVE's ten commandments word 8 or 9th form the dark gravity sword sacrifar? i mean if its related to zeref thus an evil sword that would fit...it would explain her gravity powers as well as her strength because sacrifar give immense power at the cause of your sanity....that might be the case for kagura