Another - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

The one issue I see with this though is the very first case when this happened - it's not like anyone would have suddenly assumed they have a dead person in the class, with no prior incident, yet that didn't stop the phenomenon from firing itself up anyway.

True, but the Class of 73 (or whichever was the first class to suffer deaths) would have to have been aware of an anomaly, that it somehow had one unaccounted student in the roster. That would be how the student body gradually put two and two together over time. The students must first be aware of the anomaly, otherwise the deaths over the year would just seem like a run of very bad luck with no supernatural cause, ergo, there is nothing that needs to be "countered".

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

True, but the Class of 73 (or whichever was the first class to suffer deaths) would have to have been aware of an anomaly, that it somehow had one unaccounted student in the roster. That would be how the student body gradually put two and two together over time. The students must first be aware of the anomaly, otherwise the deaths over the year would just seem like a run of very bad luck with no supernatural cause, ergo, there is nothing that needs to be "countered".

Thing is, the original class wouldn't be able to even tell they have an extra student in the class - that's a deduction one can only make after being aware of the phenomenon and it's basic functions. They wouldn't see it as "unaccounted student in the roster" - they would simply see it as "someone messed up and got the desk count wrong", after which they would haul in an extra desk and be done thinking about it. They have no reason to assume an anomaly of any kind at this point.

The anomaly is something that could have been noticed only with repeated pattern and someone keeping continuous tabs on the situation, ala Chibiki. The fastest they could have become aware of an anomaly would have been after the first year of deaths, after which a student would have disappeared, provided someone (again, most likely Chibiki) would remember about it. And even only one year wouldn't have been enough, it takes at least two similar cases to begin suspecting a pattern after all. The very first year it happened however no one could have possibly been aware of an anomaly at work, and would have no reason to consider such a possibility, and as such we can safely assume that the students being aware of the potential of that being the case isn't necessary for the anomaly to activate.

On another note, personally I think we won't ever receive any concrete answers about the inner workings of the phenomenon. As much as I'd like that (if for no other reason than to put all the speculations to rest ), I simply don't see where such an information could come from. It's an intangible phenomenon after all.

Chibiki is probably the closest thing to an "expert" we have on the case, and even then it's evident there's a lot he doesn't know. All his knowledge is based on observing patterns and drawing conclusions based on those patterns, and that's probably the best anyone can do - observe and note down that A, B and C is happening, and that action X might cause reaction Y, but actually determining why X triggers Y would be beyond their capabilities.

So ... yeah, when all is said and done, I don't think we will be any wiser about the phenomenon's inner workings. That's information that's simply beyond our cast's reach, unless Mei starts seeing visions with her eye as well, not only "death"

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

So ... yeah, when all is said and done, I don't think we will be any wiser about the phenomenon's inner workings. That's information that's simply beyond our cast's reach, unless Mei starts seeing visions with her eye as well, not only "death"

Well, we do have an idea of how the phenomenon works and I think we could work to an answer quite okay. The real problem is that the answer leaves us almost powerless against it.
Chibiki himself said that what probably startet everything was his and the students idea to deny Yomiyama Misaki's death and treat him as if he were still there. All because of their selfishness of being unable to accept death. That wish was so strong that it drew the dead Misaki back into class and even left an imprint on their graduation photo.
Now what does that tell us if we take Chibiki's analogy of the flood or natural disaster again? By denying one death and practically drawing a dead person back into class they are themselves placed nearer to death. It's like cementing in a river, which makes it easier to control but on the other hand makes it impossible for excess water to be lead into the ground.

Now what if not only the result remained but the cause as well? People are always unable to accept death and sometimes to the point of deying it happened in the first place. Now what if the dead one isn't so much chosen randomly, but is actually wished back into existence by their peers?

Thing is, the original class wouldn't be able to even tell they have an extra student in the class - that's a deduction one can only make after being aware of the phenomenon and it's basic functions. They wouldn't see it as "unaccounted student in the roster" - they would simply see it as "someone messed up and got the desk count wrong", after which they would haul in an extra desk and be done thinking about it. They have no reason to assume an anomaly of any kind at this point.

It probably went quite like this. When it first happened in '73 it was nothing more than an unlucky year...maybe some people remembered some funny business happening in the 3-3 last year, but nobody would have made a connection between those events.
Chibiki said that between '76 and '80 (when he quit) the 3-3 was already known as "the cursed class" as it had happened at least 4 times. He started making his theory in the mid 70's after teachers told him about vanishing students, but all he could do was go through different methods one after another.

And it's not like that is the only thing. Apart from that you have to explain this to every new person who comes into contact with the 3-3. The headmasters always seemed to be rather unwilling to believe in the supernatural...and isn't that just understandable? Or what if you were a student? Even if you heard from a teacher that your class is cursed, would you just believe that? It's a constant struggle against rationalism...which shows when even not all students of the current 3-3 believe in the supernatural per se.

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

The students must first be aware of the anomaly, otherwise the deaths over the year would just seem like a run of very bad luck with no supernatural cause, ergo, there is nothing that needs to be "countered".

It never were the students who got this idea. How would they? They graduate out of Yomi North once they complete the third year...some of them might even leave town completely. It was always Chibiki with the help of the odd student here and there, which is why many people still believe it to be nothing more than a string of bad luck.

[Hakuromatsu]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

Putting everything else aside (for good this time! ), a thought struck me while I was enjoying the shameless fun of Higschool DxD in a state of deep meditation - was there really no way to explain the situation to Koichi at start of the school year, in a roundabout way of sorts ? Tell him to sit down and listen to a story they want to share.

"Once upon a time there was a class. After a classmate who was loved by all died, they kept acting as if he was still there, thus making the mistake of inviting the dead in the class. Each following year a formerly deceased person would "revive" and enter the class, causing death to befall upon students and their families.

All forms of exorcism failed and bodies continued to pile up, until eventually they stumbled upon a solution - doing the opposite of what had invited the dead in the first place. They selected a classmate to be treated as non-existent, thus returning the number of exiting classmates to their original balance. And behold - when they did that, no one died from the "curse" that year. <Insert relevant details that I'm too lazy to type out>. Cool story bro, eh?"

Voila. Wouldn't this essentially accomplish the "cluing Koichi in" part ? Mei's name wouldn't even come up in the story. Neither an explicit statement that they are talking about class 3-3. Neither the fact that they are actually doing the same. Nothing of that actually needs to be mentioned, and should be more than enough for Koichi to understand those parts himself. That should sate his desire to chase down Mei and figure whether she's real or he's having illusions, clue him in that he shouldn't try to interact with her, and should be largely enough to sate his desire to understand what the heck is going on.

All without mentioning Mei's existence, or even the fact their class actually has such "non-existent" person. He would piece together that on his own easy enough. Sounds like a pretty safe roundabout way to explain the situation without actually invoking the sensitive information to me.

Yeah, we now know that Koichi not talking to Mei probably wouldn't have had any effect, because the phenomenon had already started, but still - seems like a fairly obvious way to get the message across while routing around the "must not mention/acknowledge Mei" rule.

Two possible explanations for why this didn't/couldn't happen:

1. The phenomenon wouldn't allow it. If someone connected to Class 3-3 tried to explain the phenomenon -- even indirectly -- they would be killed, just like Takabayashi was in episode 5. If someone not connected to Class 3-3 tried to explain the phenomenon, the phenomenon would find some way to prevent it (or at least postpone it), like the cassette tape being unraveled. The only consistent way for someone like Kouichi to learn about the phenomenon is piece-by-piece, as has been happening episode-by-episode.

2. The story would be really shitty otherwise. Stupid characters are a staple of the horror genre (and even the mystery genre at times), so I'm willing to suspend my disbelief for this one.

[Dengar]

By the way, after graduation the extra disappears, but the memories don't change for a little while. So they could've found out about the anomaly after graduation.

[klare]

twins sisters... ok now more clear about Mei

again just when Mei going to say the name, we have to wait one week to know it

[AC-Phoenix]

You could also rewatch the episodes from before, Episode 10 has made it pretty obvious.

[don_Durandal]

Aye, the culprit is obvious:
It's Haguruma with the candlestick in the lounge!


Jokes aside, quality control must be hellish when making those episodes. With so many people scrutinizing the show for clues, any error in the animation is bound to be noticed.

[Cosmic Eagle]

I swear the censoring of the Dead One's name is really funny when you keep repeating it...

[bleachnut]

Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity

Unlike the majority of the posters, I don't blame Akazawa for demanding an apology out of Misaki. Yes it wasn't Misaki's fault that the countermeasure failed, but only Misaki knew it for sure. From the perspective of the rest of the students, her talking with Sakakibara was clearly the onset of the calamity. As the voices before the opening suggest, there is much unrest about it among the class and Akazawa only provided a rational voice for it. It's much better to do it in public and have it cleared up rather than let the unrest continue.

Besides, from the point of view of someone who has a grieve responsibility and is sincere about her job, somebody who took an important role but didn't come through should at least apologize for failing her role. It would have been out of spite or jealousy and trying to shove responsibility onto Misaki only if Akazawa herself hadn't apologized for her failure in her role. And like I pointed out in the last episode, Misaki acts in a furtive manner that makes it really difficult for Akazawa to work with her. Give Akazawa a break, she has a stressful job that's destined for failure.

She didn't force the job onto Misaki. Misaki took it for herself. And she failed. From the PoV of Akazawa, a studious person, that deserves an apology. I am sure she realizes all too well herself that apologies change nothing. But a word of apology heals relationships. However, Misaki didn't seem keen to be social with her class at all. That is fine as it is her choice but when the calamity is still ongoing and there is high amount of stress in the air, an apology would have helped. I would have asked the same of Misaki or anybody who took the role knowing what they were getting into.

She may have gone a little overboard but like I was saying earlier, it's much better that a levelheaded person like her voices what everyone is thinking in public and clear it up. I would have thought worse of Akazawa had she continued to glare at Misaki and think ill of her in her heart instead of confronting her. And it's not a bad thing that she confronted her in public at all. It'd have been much worse had she confronted Misaki in private because its a public affair. This way, she asked Misaki to apologize to the class, not just her. And she acted on the behalf of the class, not just herself.

Misaki herself was much more unreasonable than Akazawa in the first place. She should have let the class know that it was her sister who had died and that the calamity had probably already started rather than take the role of the nonexistent and lead them into a false sense of security. Given that she actually withheld information from Class, she should have apologized not just for her failure but for taking a job that was only misleading the Class. I don't care how cute she looks or how little she cares for others, that was wrong of her.

However, I don't blame Misaki for doing what she did either because I would have more than likely done the same. I just think she should have come out clean and apologized and told the Class what was up after it became clear that the calamity was active that year and more than likely, began with her sister's death.

I do think Misaki's decision of not telling the Class about the another and her mystic eye etc. is wise though. It'd do more harm than good.

So all in all, neither Izumi nor Misaki are at fault and I don't think either of them was working for personal gain here. They both have a different modus operandi and stick with it. A difference of approach. I don't care if posters like a girl more than the other etc. but it's a little bit unfair to blame Izumi of trying to frame Misaki up out of jealousy or spite imho. What she did comes along with her job. I would do the exact same thing if I was in her position and in a much much more mechanical manner.

It was a secret that she was an adopted child, and Mei is obviously a pretty private person. She doesn't walk around blabbing all of her business to anyone that will listen. It took a LOT of relationship development for her to admit the truth to Koichi. She didn't volunteer for the job of the non-existent one, she was picked for it, as we see her wanting to reject that position but then accepting albeit reluctantly.

If Izumi was SOOOOO concerned about the safety of her classmates, perhaps instead of volunteering for the position she DID take, she should have volunteered to be socially dead. Apparently she thinks it's an easy job to do.

Your comment about how if you were in Izumi's shoes, you'd have taken a more mechanical route in asking for the apology...I'm concluding you mean under the same circumstances, where you failed at your job and you have the audacity to call someone else out for failing at theirs??? That's just absurd. You don't throw stones when you live in a glass house. Izumi LOST her right to say anything. I have to wonder if in the end if this will be a record year for deaths accredited to the phenomenon due to how EVERYONE royally screwed up. The one who should take the most responsibility was the one acting all high and mighty demanding an apology from Mei. Which is why it aggravated me to no end, until Koichi stuck up for Mei, so sweet.

Izumi got what she deserved with that, it bit her in the derriere, and Koichi told Mei she didn't need to apologize for any of it. Maybe he realized himself that he was the one who kept pushing the envelope to get closer to Mei. At the end of that little confrontation, Mei came out on top, which is why I'm glad Izumi did bare her fangs, even if I don't think she had any right to talk about someone else not doing their job. Pot, Kettle, Black as far as I'm concerned.

NOBODY told Koichi he couldn't talk to Mei, and Mei had no way of knowing (while grieving for her twin who JUST died) that the boy she introduced herself to was going to be the transfer student in her class. They already talked, thus he already "broke the rule" and so therefore it is NOT Mei's problem that Koichi became like a stalker to get closer to her. She agreed to take on the burden of being the ignored, so the classmates who get a social life should have taken on the responsibility of informing Koichi about the rules.

I think there's a good deal of apologizing to go around, and in the end, Mei is correct. It isn't going to help anything. You can say healing all you want, but none of these people did what they were supposed to do, and Mei had this cute transfer student chasing her all the way home! What's a chick to do? I can't blame Mei for this much less think she owes anyone ANYTHING in the way of an apology.

It appears that Izumi's little drama queen rant (and her own apology which she damn well owed if she wanted one out of Mei) seemed like nothing more than a jealous hussy showing her true colors.

Spoiler for WARNING! Manga spoiler:

It seemed to bother Izumi a great deal that Mei has emotional control over herself, and that she isn't a wigging out teen like the rest of the useless chicks on this show.

I don't see how Mei was unreasonable, she DID apologize to the class and the brat requesting it. Was she so wrong to speak her opinion before she did so? I don't think so. If Izumi can run off at the mouth, why can't Mei have her say too?

If you consider Koichi's personality (he's drawn to a mystery) the more Mei tried to avoid him without talking, the more he was going to be on her panty line with a dozen questions regardless of whether she answered even one of them. This was a HUGE miss, and NOT BY MEI. No matter what, he was attracted to her and couldn't treat her like she didn't exist. He's drawn to her like a moth to a flame. He chased her no matter where she went. Her home, the library, the roof, by the yellow flowers etc.

Once again I'd like to reiterate that Mei was not wrong to keep her private life private. She was within her rights to do that. Obviously it's not easy for her to share. Koichi probably shouldn't repeat it either seeing as how it was such private info, but he already went and hunted down the twin's name from the Mizuno and was trying to get info about Mei from anyone he could, but because his classmates acted so strangely, he was forced to go to the source.

Mei may well have completely ignored Koichi to the best of her ability if her twin hadn't been the victim of April. She already believed the curse underway and since all of her USELESS classmates didn't tell Koichi to stay away from her, at least she tried to get the message across. (Not that Koichi listened and I love him for that!)

As for Izumi's "so called stress" that you mentioned, don't you think Mei is suffering just as much if not more? Or is because she doesn't blubber like a whale she can't be distraught over the loss of her twin that you ignore the fact that she's probably crying rivers on the inside? People dealing with that sort of grief do NOT always make the most rational decisions, and it seems to me that Izumi has had far more time to adjust to her loss than Mei has had to adjust to hers. So why are you taking Izumi's side again?

I shouldn't get so worked up, but it's this type of thinking, that someone doesn't have a right to privacy for the greater good of the masses makes me feel like I've got lightning going up my rear end for pete's sake!

---

I just loved the Koichi/Mei interactions in ep. 10

They have so much chemistry!!