Maria-sama - Spoilers & Speculation (for experienced Maria-samas only)

[agila61]

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

... I don't believe that reason ever got revealed in the Anime. I always thought it was weird that the anime skirted that issue. The novel makes it clear quite early.

The anime does strongly imply it when Sei says "birds of a feather", but only for those who have worked out how what kind of bird Sei is.

[cynicalicious]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I've been on a bit of a shoujo anime binge (30 episodes of Utena in three days) lately, but Marimite still hits a high note relative to that. I'm really quite pleased with the way Touko dug herself deeper into a hole before realizing just how self-destructive she's been. Her reasons for turning Yumi's offer was what I thought, but the creators did a very nice job of putting that into words and pictures. It's nice to see everyone - Sachiko, Suguru, and especially Yumi - finally get angry at her for how she's been behaving. I imagine that Touko is going to feel obligated to do a bit of grovelling to get back into Yumi's good graces; and given what we've seen with the "count to a hundred", it's pretty clear who's going to be figuratively wearing the pants in that relationship .

I had to respond here, because if I respond in the episode forum, it'll most likely get dinged, so I'll just post my reply here.

Just be warned that my answer is going to be somewhat spoilery. I'll even do it this way... I'll leave out the really egregious stuff, but anyway, here goes.

Spoiler for reply... spoilery, so just in case...:

Touko is in a lot of pain, because something very dear to her has just been taken away from her. I'm not going to go into too much detail about it, but it has to do with the reason she ran away from home. You'll find out about it in 2 weeks. But it also ties into her feelings about being adopted, too, and it reflects on her feelings of self-worth, which are in a bit of a mess.

Right now she's in the middle of an identity crisis, so when Yumi, whom she both adores and fears, reached out to her in what looked like pity, it made her flip out a bit. The one thing she hates is pity. (Just like Sachiko, lol. "Sachiko-sama hates Ginkos, Sakuras, pity, and boys.")

I'll just say that when Touko's father tells her in episode 11 that she has her life ahead of her as a blank canvas, that was probably the one thing that hurt her the most. He sees it as setting her free, but she doesn't see it that way. She sees it as her family totally disregarding everything she had been working towards ever since she was little, and just chucking it out the window.

But of course she loves her parents deeply, so when she realized what her running away did to her mother (brought back her nightmares from her stillborn baby because of the trauma-- her mother screams a lot more in the book), she tries to punish herself by trying to sever her ties to Yumi and Yamayurikai (by running in the election and purposely losing) and by quitting (or rather trying to quit, and failing) the other thing she loves, the Drama Club (which is also important to her for another spoilery reason, which you may hear about in episode 13.)

Sachiko is upset with Touko for hurting Yumi's feelings in the first place, but Sachiko doesn't *hate* her. Sachiko is very forgiving, so long as Touko realizes her mistakes and does something about it. Remember, Sachiko's the kind of person who, if she really didn't like you, wouldn't even bother to give you the time of day. And as Sachiko has said before, she sees in Touko (and before in Yumi) what she saw in herself before-- someone who was full of emotion, but unable to convey it to the person they care the most about. That really drives Sachiko up a tree, because she hates seeing how she used to be. So she'll come right at you with her emotions, straight up.

She's going out of her way to give Touko some tough love. And, of course, she's also doing her best to try to stay out of it, too, because she realizes that Yumi is protecting Touko (Yumi didn't tell her that Touko ran away and stayed at her house), so Sachiko won't interfere, because Yumi is trying to become Touko's onee-sama.

(Also, Sachiko is the one who, if I remember correctly, gave Noriko a push to go after Touko... I can't remember for sure... need to reread that sometime. I know Noriko saw soemthing from one of the hallways...blegh. Bad memory.)

Yumi isn't mad at Touko at all, because Yumi loves Touko. You never hear her say she's mad at Touko at all about that. She's mostly confused as to why Touko exploded again, but she's just going to be patient and wait for Touko. Yumi is being patient in the relationship, because that's what she thinks she should do. Touko won't have to beg or grovel, but she will have to take the first step. It'll be fun to watch. (And that will be episode 12.)

Touko's friends, like Kanako, the Drama Club president, etc., will figure out that she's been in a lot of pain, and has been trying really badly to cover it up. (And hasn't done a very good job it.) So they'll all forgive her, too. (Well, in various ways. Especially the Drama Club Prez.) But again, she has to take the first step.

Oh, and it's obvious that Sei goes that way. She wanted to run off with Kubou Shiroi, and it wasn't to do some sightseeing. There's no puzzle to unravel there.

[golthin]

Originally Posted by cynicalicious

I had to respond here, because if I respond in the episode forum, it'll most likely get dinged, so I'll just post my reply here.

Just be warned that my answer is going to be somewhat spoilery. I'll even do it this way... I'll leave out the really egregious stuff, but anyway, here goes.

Spoiler for reply... spoilery, so just in case...:

Touko is in a lot of pain, because something very dear to her has just been taken away from her. I'm not going to go into too much detail about it, but it has to do with the reason she ran away from home. You'll find out about it in 2 weeks. But it also ties into her feelings about being adopted, too, and it reflects on her feelings of self-worth, which are in a bit of a mess.

Right now she's in the middle of an identity crisis, so when Yumi, whom she both adores and fears, reached out to her in what looked like pity, it made her flip out a bit. The one thing she hates is pity. (Just like Sachiko, lol. "Sachiko-sama hates Ginkos, Sakuras, pity, and boys.")

I'll just say that when Touko's father tells her in episode 11 that she has her life ahead of her as a blank canvas, that was probably the one thing that hurt her the most. He sees it as setting her free, but she doesn't see it that way. She sees it as her family totally disregarding everything she had been working towards ever since she was little, and just chucking it out the window.

But of course she loves her parents deeply, so when she realized what her running away did to her mother (brought back her nightmares from her stillborn baby because of the trauma-- her mother screams a lot more in the book), she tries to punish herself by trying to sever her ties to Yumi and Yamayurikai (by running in the election and purposely losing) and by quitting (or rather trying to quit, and failing) the other thing she loves, the Drama Club (which is also important to her for another spoilery reason, which you may hear about in episode 13.)

Sachiko is upset with Touko for hurting Yumi's feelings in the first place, but Sachiko doesn't *hate* her. Sachiko is very forgiving, so long as Touko realizes her mistakes and does something about it. Remember, Sachiko's the kind of person who, if she really didn't like you, wouldn't even bother to give you the time of day. And as Sachiko has said before, she sees in Touko (and before in Yumi) what she saw in herself before-- someone who was full of emotion, but unable to convey it to the person they care the most about. That really drives Sachiko up a tree, because she hates seeing how she used to be. So she'll come right at you with her emotions, straight up.

She's going out of her way to give Touko some tough love. And, of course, she's also doing her best to try to stay out of it, too, because she realizes that Yumi is protecting Touko (Yumi didn't tell her that Touko ran away and stayed at her house), so Sachiko won't interfere, because Yumi is trying to become Touko's onee-sama.

(Also, Sachiko is the one who, if I remember correctly, gave Noriko a push to go after Touko... I can't remember for sure... need to reread that sometime. I know Noriko saw soemthing from one of the hallways...blegh. Bad memory.)

Yumi isn't mad at Touko at all, because Yumi loves Touko. You never hear her say she's mad at Touko at all about that. She's mostly confused as to why Touko exploded again, but she's just going to be patient and wait for Touko. Yumi is being patient in the relationship, because that's what she thinks she should do. Touko won't have to beg or grovel, but she will have to take the first step. It'll be fun to watch. (And that will be episode 12.)

Touko's friends, like Kanako, the Drama Club president, etc., will figure out that she's been in a lot of pain, and has been trying really badly to cover it up. (And hasn't done a very good job it.) So they'll all forgive her, too. (Well, in various ways. Especially the Drama Club Prez.) But again, she has to take the first step.

Oh, and it's obvious that Sei goes that way. She wanted to run off with Kubou Shiroi, and it wasn't to do some sightseeing. There's no puzzle to unravel there.

Ah was hoping that Touko never accepted the rosario. so it is a repeat of yumi refusing the Rosario the first time and then accepting it.

[cynicalicious]

Just going to put my answer in spoiler tags, because...

Spoiler for so nobody burns down my house for accidentally ruining something....:

Nah, why would Konno Oyuki do that after 10 books of tortuously stringing it out? She'd have thousands of angry readers banging on her door if she did it that way. Sachiko graduating, and Yumi without an imouto? Hardly. Touko becoming her imouto was a foregone conclusion. The only question was how it was going to happen. The ride is very much worth watching, though.

I've been reading ahead past Crown of Roses, and I have to say, there's still PLENTY of interesting stuff for another season, if they so choose to do it. Still plowing through Kira Kira Mawaru, and there are one or two bombshells that are definitely worth putting in a season 5, even if it was OVA style. (Although I wonder if that would be viable in this economy.)

Heck, so much stuff happens in Crown of Roses, that past Yumi slipping a rosary on Touko, I doubt that they'll animate anything else. That would leave a lot of the more interesting stuff (and the more dramatic stuff) for another season.

Either way, the drama definitely doesn't end when the Yumi sneaks up behind Touko, trips her, jams the rosary around her neck, and lets loose with her victory cry. (No, not really. It's actually a cute scene with few words. I wonder how they're going to animate it.)

[golthin]

Originally Posted by cynicalicious

Just going to put my answer in spoiler tags, because...

Spoiler for so nobody burns down my house for accidentally ruining something....:

Nah, why would Konno Oyuki do that after 10 books of tortuously stringing it out? She'd have thousands of angry readers banging on her door if she did it that way. Sachiko graduating, and Yumi without an imouto? Hardly. Touko becoming her imouto was a foregone conclusion. The only question was how it was going to happen. The ride is very much worth watching, though.

I've been reading ahead past Crown of Roses, and I have to say, there's still PLENTY of interesting stuff for another season, if they so choose to do it. Still plowing through Kira Kira Mawaru, and there are one or two bombshells that are definitely worth putting in a season 5, even if it was OVA style. (Although I wonder if that would be viable in this economy.)

Heck, so much stuff happens in Crown of Roses, that past Yumi slipping a rosary on Touko, I doubt that they'll animate anything else. That would leave a lot of the more interesting stuff (and the more dramatic stuff) for another season.

Either way, the drama definitely doesn't end when the Yumi sneaks up behind Touko, trips her, jams the rosary around her neck, and lets loose with her victory cry. (No, not really. It's actually a cute scene with few words. I wonder how they're going to animate it.)

I have always liked touko more than any of the other chracters in the series since she was introduced as a character because she doesn't take crap from anyone. I just can't see her acting in an obedient way toward Yumi once they become sisters. Will she obey Yumi's guidance or will she continue being the strong willed girl she has always been.

[cynicalicious]

Touko is much more complex than she appears to be on the surface (which is why I like her, too).

But to answer your question: yes.

[agila61]

Originally Posted by cynicalicious

Just going to put my answer in spoiler tags, because...

Spoiler for so nobody burns down my house for accidentally ruining something.... (snipped):

... and there are one or two bombshells that are definitely worth putting in a season 5, even if it was OVA style. (Although I wonder if that would be viable in this economy.)

Since Maria-sama ga Miteru 4th season vol. 1 DVD was among the leading anime series in pre-orders on Amazon JP (in a generally disappointing season), the economics for an OVA release are at the very least encouraging. I don't know anything about 4th season television ratings ... AFAIU, it was poor ratings for Season 2 when it was moved to a "better" time slot that pushed Season 3 into OVA release.

So reasonable hope for an OVA 5th, and one can always hope, even if its unreasonable, for a broadcast series.

[cynicalicious]

That's good to know. I read a recent article in the Japan Times about reduced revenues for animation companies in Japan due to the usuals-- poor ad sales on TV, poor sales on video, etc. So it would stand to reason that the market in general wasn't so hot these days. Ads aren't selling, people aren't buying, so it puts a squeeze on production companies.

Even Ken Akamatsu was wondering about the OAD market that Kodansha has been dabbling in. (He posted something about it on his online diary recently, wondering about the viability of that particular business model, just as they had released yet another Negima OAD. lol.) Granted, OADs aren't the same as OVAs, but the industry in general apparently ain't doin' so hot.

That said, I sure hope there's a 5th season of MSGM, where they go back and clean up the mess they left in season 4. (i.e., all of the great stories I want to see animated that they left behind, especially...)

Spoiler for rose mille-feuille:

The story of Yoshino and Nana's first date... and how they spent it trying to crash Rei's omiai. That was funny as hell.

Heck, if the 4th season can be spent on Yumi/Touko, why can' t they spend the 5th season on Yoshino/Nana?

[Man0warr]

No difference between an OVA and OAD. OVA used to be called OAVs but some reason OVA won out, OAD is the more modern and should be how it's said in the future, as seasons come out on discs now not vhs

[cynicalicious]

Because you keep asking...

Yumi's card is...

Spoiler for Where is Yumi's card?:

She's sitting on it. lol.

[inisipis]

Originally Posted by cynicalicious

Because you keep asking...

Yumi's card is...

Spoiler for Where is Yumi's card?:

She's sitting on it. lol.

Oh! for crying out loud! What is Yumi thinking.

[sleepyz]

HAHAHAHA You've gotta be kidding me?!?!! AHAHAHA

How did she come up with that??

ANyway, must thank cynicalicious for all your input!! I don't mind being spoiled!! haha I'm reading the light novels too but I'm only up to book 9!!

I've translated a small chunk before (the bit where Yumi farewells Sei just before her graduation in the classroom) and that was HARD!!! Took me like 5 or 6 nights to translate something like 10 pages!?!

Can't wait for episode 13! They so need to do a season 5!!

[cynicalicious]

I can tell you roughly what Yumi's thinking, (but it's been a while since I read the book, so pardon me if I don't recall her motivation completely) and that's...

(Also, Shimako's hiding spot is in here, too...)

Spoiler for Why Yumi hid the card where she did...:

All 3 of the soon-to-be-roses wanted to hide their cards someplace unique this year. The theme was 面白い, which is Japanese for interesting, amusing, funny (all at the same time, lol). Very much an Eriko theme. If it's not interesting, it's not worth doing. Yoshino and, oddly enough, Shimako are very much in on the interesting theme. Yumi, not so much. Yumi wants to make it somewhat challenging, but she's a straightforward and honest person, who wants the person who knows her best to find her card.

Yumi wanted to hide her card in the Rose Mansion, because it that's the place on campus that represents her the best. She also wanted to hide it someplace where people wouldn't think to look. If she hid it anywhere else in the Rose Mansion, the logic went that it would be found pretty quickly. She's honest, but she's not stupid.

She would have hid her card in the roots of the Rosa Chinensis plant if Sachiko hadn't done it last year. (In fact, the reason why the clue was put in the old greenhouse was to keep people from uprooting all of the plants there. Very considerate of them.)

Yumi wants *someone* to seek her out to get her card. I wonder who. *cough cough*.

Oh, and don't think Sachiko will just give in because it's Touko who's after the card. Sachiko HATES TO LOSE, especially when Yumi is involved. Sachiko has hated to lose ever since the very beginning over MSGM, and that still hasn't changed.

If you want to know where Shimako hid her card...

Spoiler for Shimako's hiding spot:

In the book, Shimako becomes intrigued with the idea of hiding the card in a place where the territory changes as the time of day changes. Sort of like how the tide comes in and changes a beach. She gets all obsessed with the idea of finding some spot on campus like that, so that during the treasure hunt, the card will be hidden by the terrain, and by the time the hunt is over, the card will be revealed by the terrain, if nobody has bothered to search for it properly.

Shimako, being frighteningly intelligent, realizes that nobody will find her card without help. So she agrees to put out clues in order to help protect certain parts of campus. (To keep people from pulling up all of the tatami mats in the budokan hall where the marial arts clubs practice, for example, and to protect the plants in the old greenhouse.) There are 6 hiragana "letters," plus the character for a rabbit.

Sadly, nobody figures out how to unjumble the 6 hiragana letters た　し　ま　る　く　の and nobody knows what to do with the rabbit. The think the rabbit should be worked in as part of the letters, but no, the rabbit is part of the clue, not part of the word.

Well, the rabbit is actually a reference to the middle school teacher who goes by "Mifi-chan," (totally forgot his name.) He's the one who returned Yumi's umbrella in Parasol wo Sashite. Don't ask me how you get Mifi from rabbit, because I don't know.

And the hiragana spells out くるまのした　or 車の下 which means under a car. The card is under Mifi-chan's car in the faculty parking lot. Shimako asks him to stay until 4:40 the day of the event, and he agrees, preserving her plan. The scenery will change with the time. When he leaves at 4:40, after the hunt is over, the card will be revealed.

And sure enough, nobody finds it, because she apparently made it too hard. Which makes it interesting, in a way, but also not, in a way. lol

Oh, and I feel your translating pain. My Japanese isn't quite up to snuff to translate. Or to put it another way-- I enjoy reading the books too much to translate them. If I had to translate them, I'm afraid that I'd start to hate them.

[golthin]

Originally Posted by cynicalicious

Because you keep asking...

Yumi's card is...

Spoiler for Where is Yumi's card?:

She's sitting on it. lol.

Spoiler:

Did Touko find the card?

[cynicalicious]

Originally Posted by golthin

Spoiler:

Did Touko find the card?

Spoiler for Answer, will spoil part of ep 13:

Yes. One small detail the anime left out-- Sachiko chases out all of the fangirls by telling them that she's figured out where Yumi's card is... and then promptly gives them a big hint to finding Shimako's card. (But they don't find it.) They all run off, thinking it's a clue to getting Yumi's card. lol. Sachiko is sneaky, and will do anything to get Yumi's card. (She hates to lose!)

Then Sachiko, who at this point knows exactly where Yumi's card is, waits until it's juuust about time for the hunt to end, and tells Yumi to stand up.

But Yumi can't move for some reason. She's frozen into place in her seat.

And that's when they hear a racket outside, and Touko bursts into the room, runs to Yumi's side, and asks her to make her her soeur. *Then* Yumi stands up, revealing the red card right as time expires.

After the big ruckus, Sachiko admits defeat. Yumi thinks it's because Sachiko was willing to let Touko win, but that's not it. It's because Sachiko couldn't make Yumi stand up. Touko was the one who made Yumi stand up. And yes, Sachiko still hates to lose, which she reminds Yumi of afterwards. lol. Sachiko was perfectly willing to take that card from Touko.

[inisipis]

My thinking was about Yumi's hiding place...

Spoiler for Just kidding...:

My thinking is.

Yumi want's Touko to find the Card. "But first, you gotta kiss my @$$ !, you brat!"

[sleepyz]

Oooh inisipis!! That's a touch rude!! hehe

Off the back of cynicalicious describing the "finding card" incident:

Spoiler for where Yumi's card is...:

I like how the story was written in that Sachiko lost because she couldn't make Yumi stand up. I would never have thought of it that way - at least not immediately but it makes perfect sense now.

Thanks again cynicalicious!! It'll probably be like another 2 years until I can get to the final volume. It takes me over a month to read one volume!! Oh and I'm reading the chinese one...but I shouldn't complain. At least I have the luxury of reading these missing details!!

[cynicalicious]

Well, if it's any consolation, I've been studying Japanese for a few years, and it has taken me a while to get decent enough to read the books in Japanese with my little electronic dictionary in my lap. Those are the best tools for reading Japanese books. They have a stylus that lets you draw the kanji you want to look up, and it will find the words it's in. They're a godsend, because half of the time, you don't know the reading you're trying to find, and paper kanji dictionaries are the devil's work. Sure, you could use your computer, but it's not as comfortable to draw kanji with a mouse. I used to use Kanji sono mama rakubiki jiten with my Nintendo DS, but the DS took too long to boot up every time I wanted to look up a word. But it's a good cheap solution if you don't have $200 for an electronic dictionary. (It was like 10 seconds vs. 1 second. It really adds up over time.)

I don't try to get it all 100% perfect, either. I just try to get it in the ballpark. If I can read a sentence and say to myself, "Yeah, I get the general gist of that," then I don't spend 30 minutes trying to figure out exactly what it means, because down that road lies madness.

You might miss a detail or two that way, but you're not going to miss the Big Stuff.

Also, I skipped ahead, to Blank Map of the Future, and just read from there. I had already read various English translations of earlier books, and I really wanted to know what was going on from there. I'll go back and read from the beginning when I finish up.

I've gotten to the point pretty quickly where I can finish a book in about 5-7 days, depending on how much free time I have. Given the way Konno Oyuki writes, once you get used to her style, you start seeing a lot of the same phrases over and over again, so it gets a little bit easier to read her books.

Some characters are easier to read than others. Yumi doesn't make me hit the dictionary a whole lot, but some of the other characters like to use the big words. For example, Noriko and Shimako's vocabulary involves the odd Buddhist term, and since they're both pretty smart (Shimako frighteningly so), they like big words and complex sentence structures.

Japanese sentence structure is evil, and will drive a lot of native English speakers mad at first. It takes a while to get used to it. Verbs are always at the end, so you never really know what all of the subjects, objects (direct and indirect) are doing in various places (or not doing!) until the very end of the sentence.

But Konno Oyuki does a really good job of giving each character a unique voice in the way she writes their thought, I think.

[Eleutheria]

Originally Posted by cynicalicious

.... Don't ask me how you get Mifi from rabbit, because I don't know.

YES! This is what I'm talking about. The other day my girlfriend told me about this charming "Miffy tie" a law tutor had on. I had no clue what she was talking about. It turned out Miffy = some sort of rabbit with an X for a mouth.

Sorry for the off-topic, just had to type this.

[cynicalicious]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

If they decided it made sense to do another season or OVA series, would there be enough material in the novels?

Yes. The story isn't over yet.

Theoretically, it's possible. Is it going to happen? Who knows? Business is tough these days, so only proven properties will get support.

But to answer your question:

There's definitely plenty of material of another set of 4-5 OVAs like "season 3." If they decided to cover the material they didn't cover in Anata wo Sagashi Ni, which they just left to the preview of episode 13 in episode 12, that alone would be one episode's worth. (And notice that they specifically avoided the details. Just sayin'.)

They could cover the White Rose and Yellow Rose dates from Anata wo Sagashi ni for sure. Both stories were great, and it's a shame they were dumped from season 4, but they had time/story constraints. They did what they had to.

After Anata wo Sagashi Ni, there's Bara no Kanmui, which is full of enough material that it could easily go two episodes or one 50-minute OVA. Lots of good stuff in there.

Kira Kira Mawaru is also chock full of good material, and would give you enough material for 2 eps/50 minutes. It follows up quickly on some of the threads in Bara no Kanmui.

Margaret/Ribon is a short story collection that takes place the day after that... dunno if they could or would do anything with that, as it's kind of all over the place. Maybe an episode or two, depending on interest. They could cherry-pick stories if they really wanted to, and make an OVA out of it, but I don't think they've turned previous short story collections into episodes before. They tend to skip those.

Oshaku-sama is the story of Yuuki and the Hanadera boys. I doubt they would do that, but you never know. (Haven't read it yet, so I don't know the details.)

I would assume that Before Graduation in Fine Scenery and Hello, Goodbye would also give you plenty of material. (I haven't read them completely yet, but I can't see how they couldn't get you at the very least the same 2 ep/50 minute bang for your buck.)

I would assume that both books would get the Heavy Hitter treatment, because they're building to/reaching the finale of the series.

I'm not so sure about a full 13-episode season. That would depend on who would produce it. If they decided to go back and pick up some of the stories they dumped to rush through season 4, you could make a 5th season of 13 episodes, filling in with some of the stories that got dumped. (Like Nana and Yoshino stalking Rei on her date with her 10 year old boyfriend, which was a hoot.) Or you could drag some books out, I suppose.

The thing is, there has been plenty of demand for the series-- enough for 4 iterations of it. If they think they can find enough demand to make a 5th season (either in OVA or 13-ep format) sell, they'll do it. If not, they won't. They're not dewy-eyed fanboys/fangirls, they're businesspeople.

And if not, hey, ep 13 is a nice way to go out. (But it's not by any means the end of the story.)