2009-07-13, 00:42 | Link #1201 | ||||
yare yare..
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Earth (:
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The only thing I remember from Kira was "Don't make me shoot, I don't want to shoot". =/ Quote:
Don't worry. I'm a bloody fan, but I listen to points and acknowledge them (although I too, play devil's advocate). Quote:
Of course Kira had to shoot it. They were aiming at Orb, and he's Cagalli's brother as well as Orb's citizen. "Continuing to attack all sides" - Yeah, he pwn'ed EA/Orb and ZAFT. Of course he had to.. Orb was being controlled by an idiotic authority, and that idiotic authority placed orders to kill his sister. He didn't really touch Minerva's side until Heine, Shinn and Athrun get all angsty about it and moves along to attacking him. So he wasn't attacking all sides, he was just defending. But if this isn't the example you are talking about, label them please. Increasing the number of casualties? Last I recall, Kira tried to minimize as many casualties possible. Shouting "Stop fighting", right? When? Quote:
No, no. This part is between you and 4Tran, I'm just asking.
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2009-07-13, 00:59 | Link #1202 | |||||||
Has a life IRL
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Somewhere in the Anglo-Saxon Sphere
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The only people for whom Orb is a priority is the ArchAngel and Orb itself. It is not ZAFT's priority, and attacking ZAFT for Orb put Kira and the AA against ZAFT. Quote:
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Still, he didn't call out for them to stop fighting, though I do love how his idea of how to disarm a ship is to blow out its engines while in a low orbit. Quote:
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2009-07-13, 01:20 | Link #1203 | |||
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Somewhere in the Anglo-Saxon Sphere
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Lacus's hypocricy of using force to fight force, waging war to end war, is something even she accepts. She has an entire monologue at the end of Seed, and it doesn't change after. Quote:
It's especially true in a battle when you prevent a decisive blow from being struck, and this is what really gets me about his actions. When Kira stopped the Minerva from firing, he allowed dozens of EA ships and squadrons of mobile suits to launch, which in the end caused many casualties for ZAFT. Even though Kira shot down missiles that would certainly have killed more, or even sunk the ship, from a ZAFT perspective those missiles would never have been fired had the EA navy been wiped out in a single blow, and the people who did die might have otherwise survived. Likewise, when the EA and Orb pressed the attack after Kira helped them, Kira turned his weapons on them. What could/should have been a victory was turned into a bloody stalemate as Kira nulled their attacks and disarmed their mecha, leaving them vulnerable to the Minerva and unable to support their allies. Orb especially suffered for this: the Orb pilots and military, who generally dispised Yuna and favored Cagelli, ended up throwing their lives away, literally in the case of the kamikaze grunt. And when Kira was no longer on the field, ZAFT (Shinn) wiped out the entire Orb task force, killing most of them. So even though Kira saved most of them initially, he also ended up prolonging the fight until most of them died anyway. And in the end, that's what both sides are going to remember. Kira didn't change the battle; ZAFT eventually won, and the EA fleet was devestated. But it was bloodier and harder on both sides for his intervention. Quote:
Again, you're simply justifying the action, not even denying them. From Kira's perspective, it certainly was the right action. I can commend him for sticking to his beliefs. But no one gives a damn about Kira's perspective. Orb cares about Orb's perspective. The EA cares about the EA's (many) perspectives. ZAFT cares about ZAFT's perspectives. And all of them agree: Kira attacks them all, and in the end it's only made the battle worse for them. |
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2009-07-13, 02:20 | Link #1204 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Ep 42. Cagalli says "try to negotiate a ceasefire with Zaft" AS SOON AS SHE TAKES COMMAND. We then cut to a Zaft commander saying "This annoying nation should just let us take it already" And outright refuse even after their target has already escaped until Talia takes over. Then of course in 48 Durandal is annoyed that Orb is refusing the Destiny Plan and his aides comment that if only Kira hasn't shown up and Orb had been more devastated during that battle they would have had no choice but to give in which suggests that Durandal had also ordered his personal troops to cause damage to Orb so it wouldn't be able to resist the DP. It isn't until Talia takes command (who isn't under Durandal's thumb) that Zaft withdraws, even though Djbril had already left.
Also at no point had Orb decided to attack Durandal prior Requiem being fired. They were prepared for it (as they didn't trust him) but at no point does anybody say "we will attack Durandal" before than. You are paying more attention to Astray and interviews than the actual show itself. The evidence is there. I've pointed it out several times but you keep ignoring it. |
2009-07-13, 06:24 | Link #1205 | |
As I make you stop, think
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Europe - The Netherlands
Age: 34
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2009-07-13, 06:35 | Link #1206 | ||||||||||
yare yare..
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Earth (:
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Nevermind, whatever you say then. Quote:
How does accepting to use force to fight force constitutes the hypocrite trait in her? Yes, she wants peace. No, she never said anything about not using force. Quote:
I didn't morally justified him either, at least in that particular point of mine you chose to quote and write this wall of text for. Quote:
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Also remember that when he stopped Minerva's Tannhauser, Kira and Cagalli's motives were for the current war between EA/Orb and ZAFT to end. So, if there was no idiotic authority (Yuuna) at scene in command of Orb to deny Cagalli's identity, there will be no further casualties at all for either sides. But then again, following your point, how does accidentally forming casualties for ZAFT makes Kira a hypocrite? Did he planned for ZAFT's casualties from the start? Quote:
About Shinn going crazy, that wasn't in Kira's control. So you're gonna put all the blame on Kira now? Awesome. Quote:
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2009-07-13, 07:12 | Link #1207 | ||||||||||||
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Location: Somewhere in the Anglo-Saxon Sphere
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I mean, she had an entire monologue on the matter at the final episodes of Seed. It's pretty clear she considers herself hypocritical. What most people don't realize is that hypocrisy isn't an end-all trait that invalidates everything. Lacus is hypocritical: so what? For her, it generally means she does what she thinks is best at any given situation, even if it compromises her stated ideals. If that works out for the best, it's actually a good thing, because the opposite end of hypocrisy is ideological lockstep. I just have the opinion that it doesn't work out for the best, and the naivite of her faction drives me up the walls and aggravates my opinion for it. Quote:
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If you want to get real "what if", if Cagelli's father hadn't crisscrossed his own ideals and then let his country burn, Cagelli wouldn't have assumed a position she couldn't handle. Quote:
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Alternatively, of course, he's also responsible for people who survived the battle but would have perished from the Tanhauser blast, but that's harder to quantify and I don't remember the post-battle well enough anyway. Quote:
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Besides, it was a perspective counterpoint to the argument that Kira should have been liked because he was protecting and defending: from the views of those involved, Kira wasn't protecting anyone and making the battle less intense. He was attacking all sides, including Orb. Quote:
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2009-07-13, 07:29 | Link #1208 | |||
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Somewhere in the Anglo-Saxon Sphere
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Of course Durandal is annoyed that Orb is refusing the Destiny Plan and is mobilizing; it's his dream. And iff Orb had been more devestated it would have capitulated. But that doesn't imply that Durandal ordered explicit infrastructure damage (nothing in the series or side material showed, mentioned, or implied it, making it entirely an outside insinuation created by you), and the fact that Durandal's most trusted officer takes command from the made-to-hate officer and pulls back from Orb after Djirbil's exit is pretty contrary to your argument that Durandal was out to conquer Orb using Djirbil as an excuse. Quote:
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It was whether the Destiny Plan would actually work, and if it was a dystopian police state for all time, ala 1984. The anime didn't say it wouldn't work. It didn't say it was miserable. Lacus argues that there not everyone would be content, and that it wasn't worth the trade of freedom. All the side material and interview said was that it does work, it isn't a miserable oppressive existence, and that the unsatisfied can leave. None of that contradicts the anime, where the reason for opposing the plan was just that it required the freedom tradeoff which Lacus and co. found unacceptable. So, yeah. You keep pointing out that Durandal was going to use every means he could to convince and make everyone join. That's pretty much a one man argument. (Or woman, as the case may be.) |
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2009-07-13, 09:17 | Link #1209 | |||||||||||
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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Moreover, there really isn't much hipocrisy in fighting for a better peace - that's pretty much the fundamental principle behind military philosophy. Quote:
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2009-07-13, 11:02 | Link #1210 | |||||||||||||
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Somewhere in the Anglo-Saxon Sphere
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Durandal's Destiny Plan doesn't depend on Mars in any way, and I'm not sure where you ever got the idea that it did. Mars is relevant to this discussion because it serves as proof that the Destiny Plan does work at what it sets out to do. Quote:
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Well, yes, that is what I've been saying for awhile... Quote:
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Kira intervened to try and stop the fighting by means of having Cagelli get Orb to pull out, which would also leave the EA fleet in the lurch. He was trying to stop the battle so Orb forces wouldn't fight. Quote:
No idea where you get the idea that people aren't responsible for their own actions. Quote:
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Side material isn't as strong as the anime, but it holds true as well. The only time side material is invalidated is when it is opposed by cannon, which isn't the case here. Side material is used by the franchise owners to flesh out the story settings, tell other tales that couldn't be included in the anime, and give technical/mecha information. These are understood to be true unless corrected later. If it didn't, then there would be no reason for side material in the first place, because it would be as acceptable as fanfics. But it isn't. So, pulling 'common marketing sense' I guess? Quote:
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2009-07-13, 11:33 | Link #1211 | ||||||||||||||||
yare yare..
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Earth (:
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A person who acts according to her thoughts, and not according to her previously stated ideals is not equivalent to a hypocritical person. Using your explanation and applying it to Lacus, she is merely acting out her "changing-over-time" beliefs. This does not, whatsoever, says that she is hypocritical. Perhaps she goes back on her words, but she does not pretend. Quote:
He wishes to stop that particular current war. He wanted to reduce EA/Orb's casualties because he believed that it would stop with his intervention. Therefore, how is he hypocritical? Quote:
I merely provided the point, that if no one from ZAFT actually bothered to attack Kira, they would not suffer casualties (Saviour wouldn't be destroyed too. Silly Athrun.), because Kira was only focused on protecting Cagalli. Quote:
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Spoiler for uh huh:
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So how does that make him a hypocrite? Quote:
Therefore how is that weak?
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2009-07-13, 12:27 | Link #1212 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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My whole arguement is that Durandal isn't an all holy saint, and that Kira and Lacus aren't evil demons that have doomed C.E. forever like certain people keep portraying them to be. That's really all I'm trying to prove, is that Durandal did immoral things to try to get everyone to use his plan.
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2009-07-13, 13:09 | Link #1213 | |||||||||||
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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Inciting a war by attacking a peaceful nation without provocation This is the responsibility of the ones giving the orders - most likely Djibril. use of mentally handicapped children as soldiers Responsibility of the ones who brought up the children. Note that the Extended don't really qualify as child soldiers by the time Mwu leads them. controlling subordinates through drugs, hypnosis, and other conditioning methods I'm unaware of this being a war crime; especially since indoctrination would also be considered a conditioning method, and all militaries use it. Do you have any other crimes to bring to the table? Quote:
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Don't lump me in with what someone else might claim. I would certainly maintain that Orb and PLANT were at war, and that the military conflict between the two are mostly justifiable. I'd even separate Cagalli's (and the rest of Archangel's) position in the matter from that of Lacus. As far as Lacus was concerned, she had been at war with Durandal ever since the assassination attempt on her. If it were up to her, I doubt that they would have been at Berlin.
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2009-07-13, 22:34 | Link #1214 |
Even in Death I Serve
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Beyond the Time
Age: 29
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even if he was a civilian he had Freedom in his hands >.>
I don't think he counts as a normal civilian, but then again, No one really knew that Kira was in Freedom except for a small number of people. So since he does have a powerful weapon in his basement, he would probably be a classified as a terrorist, even if he did do good things in the first war. Besides this IS anime not everything is going to be realistic
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2009-07-13, 23:04 | Link #1215 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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Nope. The weapon was entrusted to him by a lawful government; that would make Kira a government-sanctioned weapon wielder .
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2009-07-13, 23:12 | Link #1216 |
Observer/Bookman wannabe
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 38
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Well, according to the peace treaty after Jachin Due, all nuclear-powered suits are supposed to be gone. With such a violation, I guess you can say that he's a government-sanctioned terrorist.
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2009-07-15, 01:04 | Link #1218 |
Observer/Bookman wannabe
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 38
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Well, I'm not sure if Orb signed the treaty, but given the rampage through its land, it would be pretty hard to convince me that Orb wasn't there when PLANT and the EA signed the treaty.
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