[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Dr. Akagi]

Spoiler for Re: Higurashi:

You won’t believe me, but I had Takano figured out by the end of episode 4 of the first anime season.

And I’ve never read no VNs.

Not that I’m that smart it’s just I honestly couldn’t find anyone more fitting with such a limited cast of characters. Besides, I’ve heard the anime version was oversimplified / not that huge of a mindscrew compared to the VNs.

R07 has definitely done his homework for Umineko, though (which was a pleasant surprise for me). Either that, or he is just gently caressing with us (which makes me a saaaad panda).

[MeisterBabylon]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

I highly doubt that the pieces are incapable of such a line of questioning. Such a line of questioning is the nature of the metaphysical inquiry itself. Given the fact that they are experiencing events that from their POV are almost unreal and unimaginable they would be expected to react in ways real people would.

This is how metaphysics was born: the inquiry into the nature of our current reality and it's possible links to any meta-reality that may be possible. In more detail, when one finds current reality to be insufficient, man points is questions to a possible other reality that may hold the answers that he seeks, thus a meta-reality because it is a reality he cannot exactly access. At least as far as we know.

The characters are put into a problem that makes them question just WTF is going on. They are arguably pieces in the game of Rokkenjima held by Beato and Meta-Battler. While their consciousness are limited to their own world, it does not mean they cannot question the possibility of a higher world or a higher power at work. Same goes for Battler and Beato: who knows if they are thinking that a higher power lording over them may exist (Ryukishi).

I've kept you're and Chaos' ideas in my mind for a while after completeing Ep4 since I had come to the conclusion that we have become bound to Ryukishi and have entered the arena of perhaps reaching the conclusion before even he does. If that's possible anyway.

The problem I approached however is this: which are clues and which are red herrings? To this day, even with red text, there is still the matter of ironing out what to consider as empirically valid and which can be taken with a grain of salt. As you have said, we must dance to the tune of Ryukishi's clues, but that's more of necessity than habit or somesuch. As of Ep5 I still have no idea which to take as trues clues and which must be tossed out. With that in mind, I still find it difficult to seek the implications of his clues when I still don't know which are clues with vital implications.

This is why I'm willingly letting myself be led by the nose. As it stands I find that there is still not enough to go on, very few clues who's validity can be ascertained. I cannot as of yet seek the overaching implications of current information because we'd have an assload, then the problem of sorting them out from the false ones. With what we have we still need to stick to our metaworld assumptions because that is all we have to go with as of now.

In my opinion, seeking the implications of what Ryukishi is giving us is premature because... well he hasn't given us enough to work with yet. We are still dependent on what he brain produces, and we haven't been given enough definitive content to work it out.

I totally agree with this. I forgot that the pieces, when they aren't that caught up in their situation, have the power to question the metaphysical.

But that's not the point of my post. I merely wanted to start a new line of thought, look around the chessboard rather than always from the sides, and see what bears fruit. The goalposts may yet change still as we have about 2 more episodes to go? There's so many holes that we can arrange the facts to form part of one picture and rearrange them to form part of another, and they both look equally probable at the moment. My actions would be to propose yet another arrangement to put the facts we now have in and fit more puzzle pieces as we go along.

Still, thanks for pointing it out.

Originally Posted by ChaosDimension

Hey someone agrees with me for once! I also like your thinking Meister, it gave me new ideas.

But, I guess we're in a big dilemma here. By what you say, and in reference to episode 5, he is a Game Master. And we are not Battler, he is Battler.

Battler has a chance to win, we, the player, have NO chance of winning at all. We are Beatrice. *cackle* Huge mindfuck huh?

Still not getting it? What do most visual novels have in common?

Spoiler for answer:

Branching storylines/different paths

There is a reason why this game and Higurashi is a linear storyline. It's his device for winning each and everytime time! Technically Ryukishi has already made up thousands of kakera aka possible outcomes(but to due time constraints its possible it's just a few. ) All Ryukishi has to do is go up google "type in _____ is the culprit killer" If there theories on the outcome then, he goes "I didn't trick em enough. They were able to figure it out." So he goes "NEXT! and then searches for ____ is murdered by ____ with a plot twist of ______. No results? Bam! A winner is me!" He elaborates that outcome on his next episode and we all make the Battler face and go "What the heellllllll is that?" Then Ryubeato goes "*cackle* *cackle* I'm in your VN trolling your uminekos *cackle* *cackle*"

How's that for a mindfuck?

Very good point, I cannot deny that either. However, as I said, Ryukishi has to abide by some rules or Umineko would be one big farce, and he still loses. Off the top of my head:

A) He cannot create a scenario that results in a retcon of any episodes up to date, whether by purposeful writing (which would turn the game into a farce instantly) or by accident (where us Battlers find it). This is especially true for dictated-in-canon indisputable Truths of any color.

B) The answer must not be so absurd that it reduces the game to a farce as well.

C) He has a limited number of games left, as I believe there's been only 7 confirmed episodes?

D) As the game ends, all of the clues must have been in the game thus far.

E) His mind is still going to be limited when compared to the collective power of thought of his audience when it comes to shifting goalposts without contravening any of the above rules.



Something about your post caught my eye. One moment we are Beato, the next moment we are making Battler faces! As I've already mentioned, Ryukishi controls both Meta-Battler and Beato. I guess the more accurate designation for Ryukishi is RyuBattleBeato who has the better bargain in both roles, and the players of this game are BeatoBattlers doomed to getting the short end of the stick in both roles?

The naming reminds me of a super robot anime now. Ni-paa...

[ChaosDimension]

The problem I approached however is this: which are clues and which are red herrings? To this day, even with red text, there is still the matter of ironing out what to consider as empirically valid and which can be taken with a grain of salt. As you have said, we must dance to the tune of Ryukishi's clues, but that's more of necessity than habit or somesuch. As of Ep5 I still have no idea which to take as trues clues and which must be tossed out. With that in mind, I still find it difficult to seek the implications of his clues when I still don't know which are clues with vital implications.

But that's the beauty of this game, no theory is exactly the same as another person. Ryukishi is basically telling us, "tell me and everybody else what you think." Share and figure this out together. I think Ryukishi believes that there no wrong answer here, everyone has their viewpoints. Some people trust the red other people think its a tool that's advantageous to the witches. Myself, I believe the red is all a sham, language is pretty easily manipulated and with the right amount of word-twisting it can easily mean something different than what it really is trying to convey. Not to mention lost in translation(no offense to the translator).

This is why I'm willingly letting myself be led by the nose. As it stands I find that there is still not enough to go on, very few clues who's validity can be ascertained. I cannot as of yet seek the overaching implications of current information because we'd have an assload, then the problem of sorting them out from the false ones. With what we have we still need to stick to our metaworld assumptions because that is all we have to go with as of now.

So what you're basically saying is that you want the picture to on auto-mode and put it self together piece by piece then when it gets to about 90% then we should start theorizing? Isn't the whole point of the mystery novel getting clues and clues and trying to put it all together even if you only have 1% of the puzzle to work with? Sure the difficulty is about 7 episodes long but that's just an analogy for a huge ass puzzle. I think instead of holding back and waiting for your theory to be proven/disaproven(then reveal it or not) you should just throw it out there anyway. Who cares if you're wrong, I mean I had crazy ass theories every episode and they were disproven on the next one. But who says that I can't have a new theory when episode 6 hits?

In my opinion, seeking the implications of what Ryukishi is giving us is premature because... well he hasn't given us enough to work with yet. We are still dependent on what he brain produces, and we haven't been given enough definitive content to work it out.

See I thought that before pre-episode 5 but now, he's definitely giving us hints, real hints. By using Dine,Knox he is referencing great mystery authors, that probably means this story would be of the same caliber as theirs. And by referencing their commandments he is saying this will fullfill mystery fan's expectations. But technically saying that there's too little information to deduce the real culprit from what Ryukishi has given us is like looking down on the Ryukishi himself. Here Van Dine's #15

The truth of the problem must at all times be apparent — provided the reader is shrewd enough to see it. By this I mean that if the reader, after learning the explanation for the crime, should reread the book, he would see that the solution had, in a sense, been staring him in the face-that all the clues really pointed to the culprit — and that, if he had been as clever as the detective, he could have solved the mystery himself without going on to the final chapter. That the clever reader does often thus solve the problem goes without saying.

Basically what you're saying is Ryukishi is showing us a picture of a duck for 6 Episodes then bam Ep7, it really was a cow. I do not think Ryukishi would do that. So have more faith in the guy, the story could be solvable at episode 1 as it can be on episode 5, we don't need epsiode 7 and a half before we can truly know the culprit. We knew it from episode 1, he just threw some crazy shit at us to throw us off but he includes factual stuff too. It wouldn't be a mystery novel if he just gave us true facts and not throw curveballs at us wouldn't it?

[MeoTwister5]

But that's not the point of my post. I merely wanted to start a new line of thought, look around the chessboard rather than always from the sides, and see what bears fruit. The goalposts may yet change still as we have about 2 more episodes to go? There's so many holes that we can arrange the facts to form part of one picture and rearrange them to form part of another, and they both look equally probable at the moment. My actions would be to propose yet another arrangement to put the facts we now have in and fit more puzzle pieces as we go along.

I got what you meant and I understood it. It's just that, for me, it's hard to look around the chessboard when I don't exactly know the exact contours of this chessboard. Or should I say umm there's isn't enough chessboard yet to know how to go around it.

Argh nosebleed.

What I mean is that it's hard to check around the facts when there isn't enough facst to go around on. I find doing it difficult right now because there isn't enough definite substance to measure.

Jebus I need a better analogy give me a moment.

I'm a medical student so let me use a tumor as an analogy. A tumor is hard to detect because you sort of need a certain physical size before it is realistically detecable. Before you reach this point, usually 10^9 cell mass, it's useless and difficult to ascertain the nature of this tumor because there is not enough cell mass to find it. However once you reach about this mass of cells you can finally see and detect the tumor and learn about it. At this time with boundaries set you can see if it is benign or malignant, a myoma or sarcoma, etc.

Ok that was needlesly convoluted metaphoric point.

So what you're basically saying is that you want the picture to on auto-mode and put it self together piece by piece then when it gets to about 90% then we should start theorizing? Isn't the whole point of the mystery novel getting clues and clues and trying to put it all together even if you only have 1% of the puzzle to work with? Sure the difficulty is about 7 episodes long but that's just an analogy for a huge ass puzzle. I think instead of holding back and waiting for your theory to be proven/disaproven(then reveal it or not) you should just throw it out there anyway. Who cares if you're wrong, I mean I had crazy ass theories every episode and they were disproven on the next one. But who says that I can't have a new theory when episode 6 hits?

That's relative. It really depends on the mental capabilities of the player. The ability to theorize depends on your own abilities, it's just that in my case I can't make valid hypotheses as it stands. Ep4 blew out 75% of my theories and I intend to stay away from too many theories.

It's more part in parcel of my education and training. As a biologist and medical student it is dangerous for me to make too many thoeries, even the crazy ass ones, because we go by the belief that Ocham was right. Too many theories bog down the thought process especially the ones that aren't very much backed by data. Too many theories can block out your views that may be closer to the truth than the rest. The scientific method extends to my appraoch to Umineko. Likewise I make the minimum number of theories, back them up with data I learn, and toss them to the shredder if they are wrong or misdirected.

[MeisterBabylon]

Ah another rule!

E) RyuBattleBeato cannot completely contravene the precedents of the great mystery authors. It would do him better to come as close to one as possible.

The old rule E) becomes rule F). Ni-paa...



*hi fives fellow medical student*

And I think I got your analogy, don't know if any others got it...

[ChaosDimension]

That's relative. It really depends on the mental capabilities of the player. The ability to theorize depends on your own abilities, it's just that in my case I can't make valid hypotheses as it stands. Ep4 blew out 75% of my theories and I intend to stay away from too many theories.

It's more part in parcel of my education and training. As a biologist and medical student it is dangerous for me to make too many thoeries, even the crazy ass ones, because we go by the belief that Ocham was right. Too many theories bog down the thought process especially the ones that aren't very much backed by data. Too many theories can block out your views that may be closer to the truth than the rest. The scientific method extends to my appraoch to Umineko. Likewise I make the minimum number of theories, back them up with data I learn, and toss them to the shredder if they are wrong or misdirected.

I think you have misunderstood me. What I'm trying to say is that theories evolve. I'm not saying that since episode 3 disproves this part of your theory you should scrap the whole theory altogether. I'm saying you should work around the curveballs that were thrown at you and instead revise that part. Sure you might be revising the 3 AND 4 but you still have ep1&2 part that are still holding ground, so you can go on from that. I too agree that too many theories is just going to hold you back but if you got one strong one, then you're on the right path even if you think Episode 5 will disprove the whole thing. Which I highly doubt.

Also I don't think the scientific method work well against mystery novels. Especially since we are up against witches after all

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by ChaosDimension

I think you have misunderstood me. What I'm trying to say is that theories evolve. I'm not saying that since episode 3 disproves this part of your theory you should scrap the whole theory altogether. I'm saying you should work around the curveballs that were thrown at you and instead revise that part. Sure you might be revising the 3 AND 4 but you still have ep1&2 part that are still holding ground, so you can go on from that. I too agree that too many theories is just going to hold you back but if you got one strong one, then you're on the right path even if you think Episode 5 will disprove the whole thing. Which I highly doubt.

Also I don't think the scientific method work well against mystery novels. Especially since we are up against witches after all

That is, of course, if witches DO exist.

DUNDUNDUN!!

[MeisterBabylon]

And as the absolute devil's advocate, I'm still trying to build a case where both are correct.

Because sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic, and the present time of the meta-world is oddly unstated.

[Rias]

Recently read about this on 2ch discussion thread...Ryukishi07's mistake #3? Real confirmation of Shannon=Kanon theory? (I'm actually not a huge fan of this despite always talking about this )

Spoiler for ep5's autumn card:

It's nothing new for the trick behind the card; a traditional trick that has appeared in some famous detective novels. However, the interesting thing is the red text that accompanies:

紗音にしか、秋が好きだと語ったことはない。
([Natushi] only spoke of liking autumn with Shannon)

We all have seen that Natsuhi told the mysterious man the same thing. Therefore, it's a contradiction to the red text as Natushi told "Shannon" and "mysterious man" the same thing. Therefore, either "Shannon = mysterious man = Kanon" (since Kanon is one of the prime suspect of "mysterious man), or "mysterious phone call scenes are fantasy scenes"

Q&A for this:
Q: There should be no problem if Shannon told others about this
A: Doesn't matter if Shannon told hundreds of people, Natushi only "told" this to "Shannon, including the mysterious man"

Q: Isn't this a time senstive thing?
A: The red text popped up when Natushi was hiding inside the closet, way after the phone call. Of course, it's up to your interpertation, so no need to over discuss this.

Q: Probably just Ryu-chan madfe a mistake?
A: Currently, there are no signs of corrections. Again, no need to over discuss this.

Q: I think "spoke of" and "told" is different.
A: It's true that "spoke of" and "told" is different, but strictly speaking it's the same thing.

[marebito]

Originally Posted by Rias

Recently read about this on 2ch discussion thread...Ryukishi07's mistake #3? Real confirmation of Shannon=Kanon theory? (I'm actually not a huge fan of this despite always talking about this )

Spoiler for ep5's autumn card:

It's nothing new for the trick behind the card; a traditional trick that has appeared in some famous detective novels. However, the interesting thing is the red text that accompanies:

紗音にしか、秋が好きだと語ったことはない。
([Natushi] only spoke of liking autumn with Shannon)

We all have seen that Natsuhi told the mysterious man the same thing. Therefore, it's a contradiction to the red text as Natushi told "Shannon" and "mysterious man" the same thing. Therefore, either "Shannon = mysterious man = Kanon" (since Kanon is one of the prime suspect of "mysterious man), or "mysterious phone call scenes are fantasy scenes"

Q&A for this:
Q: There should be no problem if Shannon told others about this
A: Doesn't matter if Shannon told hundreds of people, Natushi only "told" this to "Shannon, including the mysterious man"

Q: Isn't this a time senstive thing?
A: The red text popped up when Natushi was hiding inside the closet, way after the phone call. Of course, it's up to your interpertation, so no need to over discuss this.

Q: Probably just Ryu-chan madfe a mistake?
A: Currently, there are no signs of corrections. Again, no need to over discuss this.

Q: I think "spoke of" and "told" is different.
A: It's true that "spoke of" and "told" is different, but strictly speaking it's the same thing.

Spoiler:

I agree to the points where you think there's no need to over discuss, but I find the whole theory itself to be a bit too focused on the red text. As you said Shanon could have told that to ANY other person and furthermore I don't really see why Shanon or Kanon would threaten Natsuhi with those calls. They are both 16 years old so I can not think of any relation to the actual child from 19 years ago. The only reason I could think of is that they want to make her feel guilty and admit that she was hiding tha fact that Kinzo is already dead, but then again... why would they use such a cruel method. Supposedly the person on the phone even holds Krauss captive and kills him in the progress...

I understand you're not a fan of this theory either. I just wanted to second this.

[Kitsu]

Spoiler for Ep 5:

They are both 16 years old

Can you repeat that in red?

I don't really see why Shanon or Kanon would threaten Natsuhi with those calls.

Maybe they don#t have a relation to the baby but to the servant who was with the baby or something

why would they use such a cruel method.

Hatred for her

[Volcanic]

Spoiler for EP5:

Like Kitsu said- was it ever fully confirmed that Shannon and Kanon are 16? Shannon, at least, should be a little older if she's going to accept George's proposal. He's 23 after all

I don't think Shannon is hateful enough to set up the calls, but Kanon could have done it. Remember in EP1 when he told Shannon "They can all go to hell"? The kids (especially Jessica of course) seem to be the only Ushiromiyas Kanon likes or even gets along with.

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

Maybe they don#t have a relation to the baby but to the servant who was with the baby or something

Incidentally, wasn't Shannon described as "the maid's stepdaughter"?

[Klashikari]

If you REALLY want to go this way, NO character are ever confirmed, age, relationship or even gender.
I understand some information can be doubted, but at some point, if you break some premises, just do for everything then...

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

Spoiler for Ep 5:

Maybe they don#t have a relation to the baby but to the servant who was with the baby or something

Originally Posted by Volcanic

Spoiler for EP5:

Like Kitsu said- was it ever fully confirmed that Shannon and Kanon are 16? Shannon, at least, should be a little older if she's going to accept George's proposal. He's 23 after all

:|

Spoiler for EP 5:

Shannon started working for the family at the age of 6 and has been working for 10 years by 1986. This is confirmed in EP 1.

Shannon is 16. Kanon is unsure, but Shannon is definietly 16. Although it is implied Kanon is younger than she is. As far as the servant goes the servant died a year before Jessica was born. Shannon and Kanon weren't even alive yet, so how can they have a relationship with her?

[Kitsu]

If you REALLY want to go this way, NO character are ever confirmed, age, relationship or even gender.
I understand some information can be doubted, but at some point, if you break some premises, just do for everything then...

Well we are already doubting Kanon/shannon's gender and existence so doubting their age isn't that out of place is it?

Incidentally, wasn't Shannon described as "the maid's stepdaughter"?

The reason I thought of it

[Klashikari]

Doutbing the presentation of 2 characters is fundamentally different from doubting the premise and confirmation from the knowledge of a character.
Battler and even Gohda mentioned about Shannon's "career" which isn't even subject to interpretation, but pure knowledge.

Absolutely not the same as people claiming Kanon = Shannon thing, especially they generally admit the two of them exist, but one died at some point before/during the plot.

[Rias]

While it's plausible to doubt all the info we are given, especially some that are easily to manipulate (ie, who can be sure that Sayo was 6 when she started working? Maybe she faked her age? They are all orphans anyway, not like they have birth certificates), I have got to agree that we should really not go overboard with the claims, or once again, we would become all paranoid like back in ep2.

Rule #9 sure opened tons of room of manipulation.

[marebito]

I also think that if we begin doubting fundamental things like these we can just claim about everything as ambiguous, fake, false oder whatever and if anything is possible there would be infinite possibilities for the whole outcome of the franchise and where's the fun for the readers then? I know that the meta-world works this way to a certain extent but if it was intended to work in the same way for the readers then there would be no point in creating theories at all since there would be too many possibilities and therefore your own theory would even more likely turn out as false.

Spoiler for EP5:

Which reminds me of the talk between Battler and Vargilia about Beato setting the game up as something which can be solved and that it's comparable with the premise of detective fiction which makes someone want to continue reading and to solve the whole thing. Beato's intend that she wants her game to be solved by Battler was even stated in red so I think ryukishi-san's message is quite clear here.

[liia]

This is my first post here, eep. H-hello forums~

I've been lurking for a while and just now got up the courage to post. So here's my long and rambling theory, or collection of related theories, on the identity of Beatrice and the existence of the game world. EP5 may deny/confirm this theory, no idea since I've only glanced at a couple spoilers. Spoilers are so tempting .___.

It's riddled with holes and doesn't explain everything, and some of the ideas in it have been repeated already... so sorry if there's something I didn't think of that can easily disprove all of it T_T

I'm terrible at coherent thought so it's in bullet form; some of the listed items may contradict one another because of the non-coherence.

Spoiler for eps 1-4, WARNING TEXT WALL:

-All the game boards after EP1 are not real and are only 'simulations' of sorts. EP1 depicts the real events that occurred on October 4th and 5th of 1986 on Rokkenjima. However, these 'simulations' are real in a way, because they are alternate worlds showing possibilities of what could have occurred.
-'Beatrice' is a person connected to Battler's past. She may have also had some connection to Maria and Ange.
-She realized the truth about the murders on Rokkenjima, but everyone was dead and there was nothing she could do. In desperation, she made a wish that she could show the truth to Battler and have him uncover the culprit for the murders.
-Seeing the potential for an interesting game, LD gave her the powers of a witch, and Bern let her travel through kakera (?). They would let her repeat the events of October 1986, each with different circumstances that hinted at the truth.
-However, there was a condition. She had to pretend to be Battler's enemy, the cruel Endless Witch responsible for all the crimes, and could not reveal her true identity or motive to him. Also, until the game ended, both she and Battler would be trapped inside the endlessly repeating world.
-'Beatrice'/Beato is now separate from the person connected to Battler's past, taking on the persona of the Golden Witch. Judging by some of her actions later, she gets very into this persona.
-After the events of EP1, she pulled Battler (well, Battler's soul, or whatnot) aside into the 'meta world'. The red truth is actually to help Battler and help him distinguish lies from truth.
-The 'real world' of EP1 is now indefinitely paused until their game ends.
-Beato's purpose for the game was to show the truth to Battler so that he could solve the mysteries, while Bern/LD's was for their own amusement. Beato wants Battler to expose the truth behind everything.
-Beato is always helping Battler: whenever he's about to give up she provokes him, so that he won't lose his fighting spirit and give up, leaving them both trapped in the repeating world.
-Battler's sin is related to his past and the person who became 'Beatrice'. His sin is not between Battler and Beatrice, but that person, so red text still applies. His sin also indirectly caused the events on Rokkenjima. Beato was genuinely disappointed when Battler couldn't remember his sin, because in all likelihood if he couldn't, they would both be trapped in the game world forever. She didn't want that, because it was endless torture for both of them: torture for her to have to be cruel to Battler and pretend to be his enemy, and torture for Battler never to save his family.
-She lost her spirit to play and disappeared from the board after the whole 'Battler is not Asumu's son' discussion. Battler's entire concept of his existence was crushed, so he disappeared too.
-Bern was not pleased, wanting Battler to win. However, she'd thought this might happen and had searched the kakera for a perfect piece, finding Ange. She brought Ange back in, who restored Battler's fighting spirit and proved that he was qualified to be Beato's opponent, etc. And then exploded.
-At the end of EP4, Beato was in so much despair that she decided having Battler kill her might be the only way to leave the game; thus she didn't try her hardest to deny his theories.
-Battler (and Beato)'s win condition is not to deny witches, but to find out the truth behind the events of October 1986. He can't just explain everything away with small bomb theories, but must find out the absolute truth. Eventually he'll realize this and try to free himself and Beato from the game.
-However, if Battler or anyone else denies Beatrice, she'll die, and everyone else will still have died regardless of whether humans did it or not.
-Lambdadelta doesn't want the win condition to happen: she wants an endless tie. Bern doesn't want it either: she wants Beato to be defeated. So both of the witches will work against Battler's discovering the truth.
-I'm not sure what happens to Meta-Battler or Piece-Battler after Meta-Battler and Meta-Beato are freed from the game world, or who Piece-Beatrice is and what she has to do with it.

And that's it, feel free to comment or tear apart as you will.