[Manga] Claymore Chapter 78 Discussion

[tunjee01]

They were trying to determine the difference in strength btw alicia and riful so i guess that was the best move. I'm sure if easley hadnt started his rampage in the north they would have done the same thing.

[Cyclone]

Originally Posted by tunjee01

I've been wondering about sumtin for awhile now but is it possible jean and her group where sent so as to help determine Riful's strength. If not why was alicia doing at that point trying to guage rifuls strength.

Interesting. Hadn't thought of it in that way before. It's possible I suppose.
There seems to have been a lot of youma in the area though - Clare killed what 6-8 outside, and was attacked by 4 more in the place she fought Duph. Assuming that Jean's group went through a similar style reception, that indicates some 20 or so youma in the area.

For groups that large, the organization often sends hunting teams. It could be that Jean decided to seek out and destroy all youma activity in the area and was unfortunate enough to notice either Riful's or Duph's youki. Don't get me wrong - I liked Jean - but I've always had doubts about her leadership abilities. Her group is the only one in Pieta to produce no survivors afterall.

[Sleepy Speculator]

That's if you don't count the #7 Eva's team that was also overwhelmed completley in the north just prior to the war.

[chibamonster]

It seemed to me like Jean's Claymores had been lured in not knowing what they were up against. If they knew an Abyssal was getting ready for a tea party I do not think they would have gone in. Good thing for Riful that she can cloak her youki pretty well for an Abyssal. It even seemed like Duff and Riful were working with the youma, but since youma are not really that reliable Duff was willing to kill them himself if they stepped out of line. The youma were actually trained and coordinated to take Claymores down, like when they get Clare to jump to get her from above. I am really curious how the one claymore got away in the condition she was in. I am not sure if it was battle wounds or if she escaped from torture. Either way it sucked for her.

I wouldn't count Eva's team as a leadership issue because they were the ones who found out that the AB's were gathering which really sucks for them. I was just thinking it would be really funny if the Male AB's organized themselves into groups of four with the highest number as their leader . They seemed to just be just a mob of monsters though. Although it seems they still have a ranking system with Rigard and Isley.

[Cyclone]

Originally Posted by chibamonster

I wouldn't count Eva's team as a leadership issue because they were the ones who found out that the AB's were gathering which really sucks for them. I was just thinking it would be really funny if the Male AB's organized themselves into groups of four with the highest number as their leader . They seemed to just be just a mob of monsters though. Although it seems they still have a ranking system with Rigard and Isley.

You know, now that you mention it, how did the organization find out about the multiple awakened beings sticking together? I mean Eva's group had no survivors. Do you suppose that for hunting missions there is always an eye that stays far back somewhere and monitors the situtation? (Galatea in Slashers, Alicia in Jean/Riful) I mean how else would do they find out when things go really bad like that?

And if that's the case - is there someone watching Rabona now?

[chibamonster]

Good point Cyclone. I have no idea how the organization found out about the AB's in the North. Raphaela may have been there to tell them or they might have sent someone up to see why Eva never reported back. It does seem that MiB are present to organize groups even though they do not stay close for the most part. A third party observer does not seem to be necessary as the death squad for Teresa didn't have one and no one was watching Ophelia. Well, Raphaela might have been around but then again she could be anywhere. Galatea figured Raphaela was up in the North looking for stragglers but when we saw her she was chasing down Luciella so she could have been anywhere at the time. Observers do not seem necessary for black cards either.

It seems the third party observer is there whenever the organization has alternative motivations. The Eye would have little to do with helping even struggling claymores. Although we have only seen a few real planned AB hunts so it is hard to tell. From Galatea's response to Orsay it seemed that it was not something she did often and was actually surprised at what she was supposed to do. As she would be the most qualified it makes me think they do not observe very often.

The organization seemed to know where Riful was to have Alicia scope her youki. Although they must have known that Jean's group had no chance of actually making Riful change to her awakened form. So maybe they were just waiting around anyway to see what she looked like. Although the two incidents could be related. They could have been there knowing full well what Riful's intent was, even sending Jean's team to feed her fire. I would not put it past them.

I am not sure how long Clare and Jean wandered through the woods, but I think it was not that long if only because Clare was wearing only 1 shoe. Even a claymore would get bothered by that. Since claymores seem happy to run around without shoes she should have kicked it off. Okay, I know that is not a solid theory , but Rubel and Raphaela could have been looking on as well.

One of my favorite speculations I have heard though is that Lune is watching Rabona from a nearby hill along with an MiB and Alicia/Beth. That would be such a kick in the gut. I think the next immediate problem is going to be Miata, but all I know for sure is Claymore is always impressive .

[hell88]

I think there should be a special chapter on when Clare and Jean were wondering around before Raphaela and Rubal found them. I'd like to know what they were talking about.

[Mikke]

Originally Posted by hell88

I think there should be a special chapter on when Clare and Jean were wondering around before Raphaela and Rubal found them. I'd like to know what they were talking about.

Clare: stop following me..

Jean: no

Clare: stop!

Jean: not gonna happen..

Clare: please..?

Jean: Ummm... NO!


Btw, I was kinda wondering why Clare was panicking when she woke up in Irene's house.... Was it because it's been a week and the orgs must be pissed at her for not reporting, or is it because of Raki? Btw, since when did Irene get an engineering degree that she can build houses..?

[hell88]

Originally Posted by Mikke

Clare: stop following me..

Jean: no

Clare: stop!

Jean: not gonna happen..

Clare: please..?

Jean: Ummm... NO!


Btw, I was kinda wondering why Clare was panicking when she woke up in Irene's house.... Was it because it's been a week and the orgs must be pissed at her for not reporting, or is it because of Raki? Btw, since when did Irene get an engineering degree that she can build houses..?

I can see Jean and Clare fighting like that. Lol

Anyways I hope they make a special chapter for Irene as well, because the way I think about it she probably got some guy's somewhere to build her that cottage.... I wonder how she paid them back, mabye she rewarded them in a special way. Anyways the special chapter would probably be on her reflecting on her past before she wen't to save Clare from Ophelia, that would seem like a perfect chapter for her.

[zato_1one]

Originally Posted by myshka

Alicia was not yet completed, nor have been battle tested, and here they are sending 4 claymores on a suicide mission. Rifful was already trying ot mibilize an army agains isley's 30 AB. So the org must have known the situation, so for them to send 4 to be slaughtered and another 24 as a bulwark against isely seems kinda illogical.

According to Galatea, the org does know the situation. That's why the org want to measure the strength of Abyssal so that they know how far Alicia has to be improved.

The org sends their warriors to the north just to buy time to complete Alicia. Because Alicia project is the most important. If they can complete her then they has no need to fear any Awakened Being. As you can see that what will happen to those who oppose the Abyssal level. The quantity means nothing. Even if they're an above average AB. They all are still like trash compare to Abyssal. So for the org, those Claymores are nothing compare to Alicia. If they can acquire the power of Abyssal by sacrificing their warriors. Then it's worth it in the org's point of view.

Also why hasnt Isley or Riful taken any action against the organisation while they were weak? I hope at least some of this will be explained soon.

If you means before Pieta incident then it's because normally all AB including Abyssal live alone. It seems that they just eat and sleep. They don't have any intention to dominate the world and they know that no ordinary warrior can match them. They were once Claymore so they should know that the org might has something to counter them. But the most important reason why they don't take any reckless action is because they know that other Abyssal will take advantage of this. Just like Riful try to go to kill Isley.

Originally Posted by Cyclone

You know, now that you mention it, how did the organization find out about the multiple awakened beings sticking together? I mean Eva's group had no survivors. Do you suppose that for hunting missions there is always an eye that stays far back somewhere and monitors the situtation? (Galatea in Slashers, Alicia in Jean/Riful) I mean how else would do they find out when things go really bad like that?

And if that's the case - is there someone watching Rabona now?

I think they should know because many town were destroyed. And Claymore in the north or in nearby region should at least sense the overwhelm of yoki. IMO.

[Cyclone]

Originally Posted by chibamonster

It seems the third party observer is there whenever the organization has alternative motivations. The Eye would have little to do with helping even struggling claymores. Although we have only seen a few real planned AB hunts so it is hard to tell. From Galatea's response to Orsay it seemed that it was not something she did often and was actually surprised at what she was supposed to do. As she would be the most qualified it makes me think they do not observe very often.

I re-read Galatea'a intro in the Slashers arc to have another look. Galatea arrives after the awakened being is already dead - the first thing she does is enumerate who's left (one storng youki, one average, one small, one possibly dead and no awakened being).

She goes on to say (English release):
"What is this about? What could be so important about the fate of a few warriors hunting an awakened being?"
In Japanese:
"okashina koto o saseru na. kakuseishagari no nakama no seishi ga sonna ni juuyou na no ka?"
I translate this to be:
"You're getting me to do something odd. Is the life and death of awakened-being hunting nakama that important?"

She says this after knowing the awakened being hunt is done (why else the injured person and no awkened being?). So I don't think we can draw any conclusion that being an eye on hunting parties not being part of her regular job (black cards and executions are probably different as you say). Spying on warriors after hunting is complete - that we can assume isn't.

Miria did try to scan the region for others before talking with the others, and that would be indicative that she suspects someone might be trying to observe, too.

Originally Posted by chibamonster

One of my favorite speculations I have heard though is that Lune is watching Rabona from a nearby hill along with an MiB and Alicia/Beth. That would be such a kick in the gut. I think the next immediate problem is going to be Miata, but all I know for sure is Claymore is always impressive .

Yeah, I heard this theory somewhere before too, but I'm not convinced about Alicia/Beth being there (Lune maybe). The whole point of the Rabona mission was uing youki supressants to hide the strike force. Having Alicia and Beth with their surging youki power close in tow would make the mission somewhat redundant.

Besides, stylistically speaking, what else can happen? I mean the Galatea execution has already been interrupted by Agatha, then that interrupted by the ghosts. A third wave of visitors might be a little too much. Besides - if there is a 3rd group of visitors, I think you know as well as I, that the first thing they'd do is lobb off Galatea's head to prove they are serious and to be reconed with. Since that MUST NOT be allowed to happen - there cannot be more visitors! At least I hope...

[kpshyazn]

Anyone find this funny?

Galatea lied to the org - yet she was spared (given dangerous missions). Raf. failed in her mission (soul-link arc with her sister) yet exiled, not executed, then recalled.

Teresa kills a few bandits - no mercy; rather death. And I strongly believe that the org were very tight on members. After 1-5 was wiped out (or awakened) raf. is seeked out to join the org as "they were short on members". If the death (and awakening) of 5 claymores had such an impact, you would think Teresa could've been spared as she is the "strongest creature" alive at that time. I'm very sure claymores dying or awakening is pretty common; so if 5 claymores gone makes the org "short on members" i'm sure a #1 executed would've almost made the org "short on members" if not already short.

I do know Teresa broke an "iron-clad-law" but raf.'s failure wiped half the org away. And Galatea was bound to leave.

I just feel like there was more to Teresa's death then meets the eye. A member of the org was watching from a distance and says: "you finally did it. i knew this day would come." (chapter 4, page 52)

Even if Teresa broke the "iron-clad-law" there were NO witnesses. It sounds as if Ophelia killed plenty of humans in the past: "that would only happen if you reported yourself.." "well, even if there were witnesses... the matter would be finished once i got rid of them" (chapter 6, page 140). The bandits killed all the common people, Teresa killed all the bandits; which leaves Teresa, clare & mr. spy alive. I doubt any of those three would spread rumors of a claymore killing humans around. And, it seems as if the common people aren't even aware of the "law": "how do we know she won't turn on us?" "we have to trust her..." (chapter 1, page 21); the bandit probably knew from traveling around alot or something crazy (a yoma who can surpress his yoki that even Teresa can't detect it). After all is said and done, Teresa's killing the bandit doesn't seem like it had any effect on the common people anyway...

and now to get to my real question (associated with this topic):
- i doubt miltia, galatea & clarence will die. and i really doubt miltia & #47 will join the ghost (altho galatea probably will). That means miltia & #47 failed their mission.

Will they:
- desert the org?
- return to the org as mission incomplete. depending on how they present their stories: 1) they may be executed (or at least one) 2) exiled 3) given more "dangerous" missions. I honestly don't know anymore due to my long writings above (all that was to lead to this short sentence).
- or will miria (being the most intelligent) prevent the two from reporting to the org in some fashion about the 7/8 ghosts

if miria lets them go back; that means the ghosts are declaring themselves to the org. a clear challenge.

[hell88]

If Miria lets them go back to the Org I think she'll get them to spy on the Org for her and the other ghosts.

Anyways I don't know if anyone else has noticed this but Irene's arm is shorter than Clare's, in chapter 39 page 30 panel 1 it shows Clare facing Ophelia and her right arm (Irene's) looks shorter than her left arm. Now I am looking for other pics to prove that it is shorter or mabye it was a mistake.

[Enara]

Originally Posted by kpshyazn

Anyone find this funny?


and now to get to my real question (associated with this topic):
- i doubt miltia, galatea & clarence will die. and i really doubt miltia & #47 will join the ghost (altho galatea probably will). That means miltia & #47 failed their mission.

Will they:
- desert the org?
- return to the org as mission incomplete. depending on how they present their stories: 1) they may be executed (or at least one) 2) exiled 3) given more "dangerous" missions. I honestly don't know anymore due to my long writings above (all that was to lead to this short sentence).
- or will miria (being the most intelligent) prevent the two from reporting to the org in some fashion about the 7/8 ghosts

if miria lets them go back; that means the ghosts are declaring themselves to the org. a clear challenge.

how would the org. know they failed there Mission? there are a few way's to get out of there little mess of galatea not being dead

If the org. has some one spying on them first they couldn't sence ghosts onless they could see them. If they could see them then galatea and the other ghost who's name I can't remember could 99% sence them to and shut them up if you know what I mean. If the claymore had taken a yoki suppressant pill then Galatea could sense them seance she could sense Matai and Clarice.


The org. said them selfs that they don't have a claymore who's Yoki has gone bye-bye.
but if Clarice they wanted to do a realy good job all they'd have to do is put a yoki hiding pill in Galatea's mouth and her Yoki goes bye-bye as well. for carice must have some left from when she was giving them to maita


the next Q&A is if the people of the town will tell the Org. what happened and I gauss no. Cid and the big guy who seem to have the most power in the gaurd can shut the other men up. the rest of the people of the town cant tell one AB from the next so the couldn't help the the Org. much


you may ask "what about the big AB corpse" all Clarice would need to say is Galatea ABed. ( If they burned the AB you couldn't tell if the corpse was a former Number 2 or 3)

If clarice play's her card's right she and Maita will both get a pat on the hear from the Org. and all the ghost's + Galatea will live to fight another day.

[chibamonster]

@kpshyazn: The organization may have wanted Teresa dead before the whole Clare incident. They seem pretty hard core about killing their warriors off anyway if they are problematic. We know from Raphaela's flashback that Teresa always was a problem child. She was probably just so useful that they had to wait for her replacement; Priscilla in the same way they waited on Galatea until Lune was ready.

Raphaela's mistake was made while she was diligently following the orders of the organization so it was not like she was doing it against the rules. She was following the instruction of a decision the organization made, being very obedient. There was even a schism between the MiB's as to whether or not a normal sister could soul link as seen during the MiB's conversation during the flashback of Luciella's awakening. So really it is their fault as much if not more than hers. She failed the experiment but was still obedient. But now that she is no longer around the organization I think she will be a very different flavor of woman. Or at least I hope so.

As for Ophelia, her handlers probably did not know that she killed people. We the audience know that she did, but Ophelia hid the evidence so the MiB's really might not have known. Rumors are just that. The only person who knew what happened to Hilda was Miria and it is not like she had any evidence against Ophelia. After all, it was Miria who went over her limit at that time which seems to be another sure fire way to get on the organizations black list. Ophelia was just a twisted case who probably got off on the danger of being caught but never was.

Galatea lied to the organization about what happened with Clare but the org did not have evidence of that until Rubel went and found Clare. That is why Rubel seems like a different cat to me. He goes and checks things out, deals with the troubled cases and almost seems to encourage them as he did with Galatea at Alicia and Beth's death fest. Breaking rules and not completing a mission is not the same even if both are frowned upon. They knew Galatea was a trouble case and were planning on killing her when she ran away and they decided to kill her anyway. I am guessing Teresa might have been in the same boat as she loved to rile up the organization.

It is interesting to me that Galatea tested Miata to see if she would hurt a human when she used Galk (or another soldier, I couldn't tell) as a shield. Galatea is a quick thinker. If Miata did attack the humans then Galatea would have reason to fight against her as well or something along those lines. Next she tested Clarice by throwing Cid to her. It seems to me Galatea is seeing if her attackers valued human life and would protect it. Since they did, she decided to jump right into fighting Agatha her real target. I think Galatea gets an award for thinking so quickly on her feet in such a difficult situation and she does it multiple times. She could be my leader.

[etothex]

They let Clarice go before, if they could avoid letting Clarice and Miata go, they would prefer it, but the ghosts are not gonna kill them to keep em silent. this is how i want things to go:

Helen makes snarky comment about Clarice's hair.
Clarice gets angry.
Miata reacts to Clarice's anger and attacks Helen.
Deneve steps in and chides Miata. (spanking maybe?)
Miata the wild beast has been tamed.
Deneve keeps Miata as a pet.
Clarice unwilling to return to the Org to report the failure of the mission and losing Miata, goes along with the Ghosts.

[kpshyazn]

@enara: valid points, but #47 strikes me as someone who is obedient and truthful to the org. chances are, she may not know of past failures & results. if #47 lies to the org, it will be because miria persuaded her - and galatea can then reduce her aura to nothing.

who know, only the next episode will tell

@chibamonster: i personally believe the org wanted teresa dead. for what reason, maybe what you mentioned. or it could be that the best claymore is "one who does not live long" theory. which is why they had no mercy for her.

regarding rafaela: the org aren't the nicest group alive. therefore the fact it was kind of their fault wouldn't have spared rafaela's life.

regarding ophelia: i only brought this part up to show that with no witness, claymores could get away with anything. teresa had no "human" witnesses. if teresa killed a human, no other humans would ever know about it - i used ophelia to prove that. i think you misunderstood that point - i do agree with your statements, though.

regarding galatea: the org knew before galatea arrived that she had spared them as alice was around the area measure her strength against riful. i think rubel was sent to jean & clare to prove the point that they could be found whenever and that give the mission sending them to the north. he also tells the two that the org did not believe galatea's lie. but i do agree about rubel. rubel is different from the other MIB.

your observation about the fight is very interesting. i had forgotten about that moment.

[Mikke]

Well, the deal with the discrimination I think is, of course, high priority. Galatea served as the eye of the organization.
Assuming that such a position means not only to gather information and be left in the dark about things like some lowly spy, but rather be a free thinking agent whom having access to nearly all of the information regarding the organization can that way operate more efficiently.

No doubt the organization wouldn't simply kill someone so special. Besides, there were no replacements for her if she was killed in battle or executed.. I'm sure that Galatea's disgust with the immorality of the organization wasn't the only reason why she left, but also the fact that a new eye was being trained, which would've legitimized any execuse to kill her with her first screw up....

The biggest issue with the org is of course "Control", so those who are easier to manipulate will most likely be given a second chance. The org knew Rafaela could be useful still, and now when she's filled with guilt and rage over what happened to her sister, she can be made to dance on all four and bark.

Teresa.... Well, she's just different.... she was problematic, intellegent, insanely powerful and overly cynical which doesn't hide her hate towards the org all that well. With that, the only thing that was of an issue to them was her position, because they didn't necessarily have to rely on the most powerful creature in the universe, only on someone powerful enough to be No.1. Such a successor happened to be Priscilla, who was even to surpass Teresa eventually..

Under those circumstances it wouldn't be surprising if the org would've decided on plotting Teresa's execution. They DIDN'T do it because she was the only one powerful enough to face the AO's in a case they suddenly attacked.

[myshka]

Maybe it's more simple than all this, most claymores are all about holding on their [I]humanity[I] and we as humans tend to get emotional over certain things. It's almost like the org is trying to keep claymores in a more yoma-like state: they are alone in their assigned area , they typically have few friends because they are in constant competition with each other and they are usually openly rude to each other. Yet they try to seek some sort of companionship eventually. I think this this type of a story reverberates throughout the series. Teresa, the loner, who doesnt have any friends among claymores gets attached to Clare. Clare in turn does the same with Raki. Miria gets a freind and is put in a position where she had to kill her, so on and so forth. Basically what I'm getting at is that is the longer a claymore lives, the more emotional situations she gets put through. So, it's no wonder that Miria went a little berserk and started digging through org's dirty laudry. Needless to say, if she found something really bad, which I think she did, it really made her go all out against the org. She essentially build a small army, same as Isely and Riful. Now imagine if Teresa was doing that? They'd be in deep sh**!
THis is just an idea, but if yoma-human mix makes a being more powerful than either human or yoma and when the yoma takes over they turn into very powerfull AB, maybe if they become more human something else happens as well?

[derelict88]

Rabona and the 7 former female warriors.

chibamonster
Nice topic, I did voice my opinion some time back regarding the above mention

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=415

Deep down i still think Rabona has a bigger picture to play still.

Cheers