[Manga] Chapter 399 Discussion

[Vindi89]

Originally Posted by kakashi-san

I don't see why he would have to work incredibly hard, especially if he were to joing Akatsuki. Right now no one in Konoha could stop Sasuke let alone Madara.

Why are you forgetting Tsunade?

[Kakashi]

Tsunade relies too much on power and Sasuke can easily out-manouver her. Also Tsunade is a medical ninja while Sasuke specialises in fighting and namely killing.

[HiroInazuma]

Originally Posted by kakashi-san

Tsunade relies too much on power and Sasuke can easily out-manouver her. Also Tsunade is a medical ninja while Sasuke specialises in fighting and namely killing.

With the two people that were with him I wouldn't be surprised if he picked up a thing or two because remember when Sasuke missed the vitals, even if it was genjutsu someone like Naruto couldn't be able to do something like that

[Goshin]

haven't been here for a while...

my thoughts on all of this.

I think the way konaha reacted to uchiha was realisticly normal. although not morally correct but they are a millitary government at all. I am sure if madara was hokage the senjus would have been in the same situation as the uchiha were. especially if shodai wasn't the only one who could control bijuu's the uchiha would have kept a close eye on them as well.

In a real world environment, after the kyubbi attack, the uchihas would have been put in sort of concentration camp. all every one of them would invistigated and questioned. so a spy was among them was just being nice.

whether madara is telling the truth idk. there is has been so many versions of the truth i don't know what to believe anymore

[james0246]

Originally Posted by kakashi-san

Sasuke is in a different league to Yamato. Even if he was about to get serious, Sasuke had yet to use his Sharingan. Sasuke is Kage level, he's beaten Deidera which Gaara failed to do, granted he was protecting the village, but at the very least Sasuke is around Gaara's level or higher. That can't be said for Yamato.

I think you are greatly overestimating Sasuke's powers. The loss of the CS was devastating to Sasuke, as well as the loss of Manda and potentially the Snake contract (it is unknown if Sasuke still has the snake contract considering the fact that he killed the Boss summon), and the loss of the White Snake abilities is also a monumental loss, considering that they gave Sasuke a partial healing and chakra regeneration ability similiar to Naruto's abilities. And, right now, Sasuke does not actually have an MS, rather he has a technique that only appears if it sees a Sharingan, MS, or EMS (and it could be set-up to only activate if it sees Madara's Sharingan, and no one elses). He is still strong, but unless Madara stabalizes Sasuke MS, then he is significantly weaker than he was before he confronted Itachi (that is still strong enough to defeat Naruto though ).

[Vindi89]

Originally Posted by kakashi-san

Tsunade relies too much on power and Sasuke can easily out-manouver her. Also Tsunade is a medical ninja while Sasuke specialises in fighting and namely killing.

Wow Uchiha fanboys are out and about today. Nice how you can make that prediction so easily even though you haven't seen Tsunade fight since the timeskip or even bother to mention her when thinking of challenges for Sasuke in Konoha.

[Blerghovic]

Originally Posted by james3wk

I think you are greatly overestimating Sasuke's powers. The loss of the CS was devastating to Sasuke, as well as the loss of Manda and potentially the Snake contract (it is unknown if Sasuke still has the snake contract considering the fact that he killed the Boss summon), and the loss of the White Snake abilities is also a monumental loss, considering that they gave Sasuke a partial healing and chakra regeneration ability similiar to Naruto's abilities. And, right now, Sasuke does not actually have an MS, rather he has a technique that only appears if it sees a Sharingan, MS, or EMS (and it could be set-up to only activate if it sees Madara's Sharingan, and no one elses). He is still strong, but unless Madara stabalizes Sasuke MS, then he is significantly weaker than he was before he confronted Itachi (that is still strong enough to defeat Naruto though ).

I agree with you there, technically that's what should happen. But the question is, with how much Kishi likes Sasuke, is it going to happen?

[Kakashi]

Originally Posted by james3wk

I think you are greatly overestimating Sasuke's powers. The loss of the CS was devastating to Sasuke, as well as the loss of Manda and potentially the Snake contract.......

I agree with you that Sasuke's loss of CS is a big one, but big enough to lose to Yamato, Kakashi, Naruto or Tsunade? I don't think so, but that's just me. Is it really overestimating him to say he's around or exceeds Gaara's level? He was before timeskip so I don't see why not now.

Originally Posted by Vindi89

Wow Uchiha fanboys are out and about today. Nice how you can make that prediction so easily even though you haven't seen Tsunade fight since the timeskip or even bother to mention her when thinking of challenges for Sasuke in Konoha.

I'm not an Uchiha fan boy I just think Tsunade has no chance in hell of beating Sasuke in battle. Way I see it is that there's a lot of Sasuke hate out there, and people refuse to acknowledge his strength. Sasuke beat Diedera and Orochimaru, Tsunade couldn't beat Orochimaru. Even if she could somehow defeat him I don't see Kishimoto writing such a battle. What would be the point because they have no emotional attachment, they've never even spoken. Which is why I left her out completely. If you choose to blindly believe Tsunade has a chance in hell of beating an Uchiha, go ahead.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by kakashi-san

I agree with you that Sasuke's loss of CS is a big one, but big enough to lose to Yamato, Kakashi, Naruto or Tsunade? I don't think so, but that's just me. Is it really overestimating him to say he's around or exceeds Gaara's level? He was before timeskip so I don't see why not now.

Gaara is Kage-level, so is Kakashi, Tsunade, and Naruto if he ever got his head out of his ass. Gai can be as well, and Yamato is great support. If you are only talking about a one-on-one battle, then Sasuke might be able to beat them all (not on the same day, of course), but if Kakashi ever teamed up with Gai or even Yamato, Sasuke could be defeated (I expect Tsunade to win by herself, but I say that partially because I firmly believe that a "weak" person would never be chosen to be Hokage).

Realistically, Sasuke losing the CS was used to undoubtedly make it possible for Sakura and Naruto, together, to defeat Sasuke. So, in the big attack (if there is one) Narut and Sakura will take on Sasuke, Madara will fight the older generation of shinobi, and Pein will wait in the background until everyone is finished slaughtering each other, and then swoop in to take the Kyuubi (at least that is how I am currently imagining the next big battles to play out).

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by james3wk

The loss of the CS was devastating to Sasuke, as well as the loss of Manda and potentially the Snake contract

We don't know yet what was lost and what was gained. Just look at Gaara, he supposedly lost the source of his power, but he remains the kazekage and his power was never questioned.
I don't think that Orochi's soul gave anything important to Sasuke apart from fast healing. If he does not have to fight 3 kage level ninja in one day (Orochi->Deidara->Itachi) he does not need such a fast healing ability. He actually needed some chakra to supress Orochi from coming out, Itachi did him a favor by killing that disgusting parasite. So what remains a loss is CS/CS2, but if he gains an MS that will be much better than any CS.
I don't think he lost a snake contract just because Manda died in one of his battles, surely Manda was the strongest creature but lets not overestimate these summons just because of their size: we see when Jiraiya was in real trouble he didn'r summon gamabunta but he summoned two seemingly useless frogs, but looking at the battle we can conclude that those frogs combined with Jiraiya's special powers were stronger than gamabunta.

[Kakashi]

I was talking about one on one, Kakashi & Gai would destroy Sasuke. But I don't see Tsunade beating Sasuke just because she holds the title Hokage. That would be admitting Tsunade is stronger then Kakashi which I refuse to believe

Ero-Senn1n I generally agree with you but it's fair to say loosing CS would be a pain for Sasuke, after all he's used it in every big fight to his advantage. But then gaining MS would more then make up for it like you said.

[Sabaku Kyu]

No way Sasuke will be weaker. The characters in this type of story never get weaker, they either don't change or get stronger. CS/Whitesnake powers were an advantage, but Madara's talk about whether Sasuke would become a snake or hawk gives the impression that they were in fact a crutch that on which Sasuke was becoming over-reliant. Sasuke's true strength was never about Oro's powers/jutsu, but Sharingan's powers. I think eventually he'll be able to control the MS that was given to him by Itachi and be able to use it at will, and maybe even gain new abilities for it.

Sasuke won't be watered down so that he's an easier match for Konoha that much is clear. That wouldn't be very interesting would it?

[reloaded]

I think Sasuke may learn a few things from Madara that might just make up for the CS loss.

[Vindi89]

Originally Posted by kakashi-san

I'm not an Uchiha fan boy I just think Tsunade has no chance in hell of beating Sasuke in battle. Way I see it is that there's a lot of Sasuke hate out there, and people refuse to acknowledge his strength. Sasuke beat Diedera and Orochimaru, Tsunade couldn't beat Orochimaru. Even if she could somehow defeat him I don't see Kishimoto writing such a battle. What would be the point because they have no emotional attachment, they've never even spoken. Which is why I left her out completely. If you choose to blindly believe Tsunade has a chance in hell of beating an Uchiha, go ahead.

I never discounted Sasuke's strength, I however don't see this being as easily decisive as you seem to think. Funny you are calling me blind when you're preaching against the same thing you're actually doing right now.

Originally Posted by Kakashi-san

But I don't see Tsunade beating Sasuke just because she holds the title Hokage. That would be admitting Tsunade is stronger then Kakashi which I refuse to believe.

Just as you're obviously refusing to acknowledge Tsunade's strength. So I guess you're just as bad as the Sasuke haters out there.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

We don't know yet what was lost and what was gained. Just look at Gaara, he supposedly lost the source of his power, but he remains the kazekage and his power was never questioned.

Actually, I have no idea why Gaara is still Kazekage. Can he even use his sand powers anymore? The manga never clarified that issue. Additionally, even if he could use the powers still, Gaara contained the Ichibi for his entire life, whereas Sasuke only had the CS for 2.5 to 3 years. So, I doubt there would be any care-over in terms of ability

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

I don't think he lost a snake contract just because Manda died in one of his battles, surely Manda was the strongest creature but lets not overestimate these summons just because of their size: we see when Jiraiya was in real trouble he didn'r summon gamabunta but he summoned two seemingly useless frogs, but looking at the battle we can conclude that those frogs combined with Jiraiya's special powers were stronger than gamabunta.

I completely agree that there are other large snakes that Sasuke could potentially use, what I was reffering to in regards to losing the contract was the fact that he specifically killed one of the summon, the Boss Summon at that, to save his own life. If I was a snake, I would never respond to Sasuke summons, because I would fear for my life

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

No way Sasuke will be weaker. The characters in this type of story never get weaker, they either don't change or get stronger...
Sasuke won't be watered down so that he's an easier match for Konoha that much is clear. That wouldn't be very interesting would it?

I agree with you that it would not be interesting, but as it stands, unless there is another time skip soon, Sasuke does not have enough time to train-up his new abilities. Most of his abilities, pre-Itachi fight, were supplimented or outright performed by or with the CS (i.e. Sasuke trained extensively in the CS, making the usage of said seal useable for all of his attacks). Now, he has lost that ability. And while the CS and White Snake were a crutch to Sasuke's true potential, there is absolutely no believable way he could unlock said potential in the few weeks or months of in-world time that is left for the Akatsuki storyline (this could be an indicator that there will be a time-skip soon, in which Madara and Sasuke train-up and re-create the Akatsuki in order to do...something, but I doubt this will happen).

And while he has a potential MS, it could be only one technique (the more damaging Amaterasu) and it will take more than a month to learn how to use than in non-Madara situations.

[Kakashi]

No I acknowledge her strength I just refuse to believe she would beat Kakashi or Sasuke in battle.

Reasons:

- Naruto and Sakura commented that Kakashi is smarter than Shikamaru (whose I.Q. is over 200), better at Taijutsu than Rock Lee (who is a Taijutsu master himself) and has a better Sharingan than Sasuke at the time of his betrayal.
- Kakashi has Raikiri.
- Kakashi has MS.
- Kishimoto loves Kakashi's character, he only looses to awesome people. Tsunade is not awesome.
- Tsunade is the best medical ninja ever and Hokage, that doesn't necessarily equate to great combatant. There's more to combat then just strength in Naruto. A lot more.

Can I see your reasons for why Tsunade could defeat Sasuke or Kakashi or are you just going to complain about Uchiha fan boys with no actual proof to back it up?

[reloaded]

If Tsunade had speed like Lee or had some kinda speed training like Sasuke did then she would be a formidable opponent because she will be more likely to land one of her killer punches. Since that isnt the case then I doubt she would be on the same level to compete as Sasuke or Kakashi, From the fight with Kabuto she had quite a lot of trouble...she would be in deeper trouble if she was to fight the two I mentioned earlier.
Tsunade is a medical ninja not really one for fighting top opponents certainly not opponents who are like prodigies in their own rights.

[Vindi89]

Originally Posted by kakashi-san

No I acknowledge her strength I just refuse to believe she would beat Kakashi or Sasuke in battle.

Reasons:

- Naruto and Sakura commented that Kakashi is smarter than Shikamaru (whose I.Q. is over 200), better at Taijutsu than Rock Lee (who is a Taijutsu master himself) and has a better Sharingan than Sasuke at the time of his betrayal.
- Kakashi has Raikiri.
- Kakashi has MS.
- Kishimoto loves Kakashi's character, he only looses to awesome people. Tsunade is not awesome. - Tsunade is the best medical ninja ever and Hokage, that doesn't necessarily equate to great combatant. There's more to combat then just strength in Naruto. A lot more.

Can I see your reasons for why Tsunade could defeat Sasuke or Kakashi or are you just going to complain about Uchiha fan boys with no actual proof to back it up?

You really expect me to have a serious arguement with those comments? I never discounted Kakashi or Sasuke, never once have I said oh well Tsunade wins end of discussion... That was the kind of reasoning you had going and so the burden of proof is on you not me.

Originally Posted by Reloaded

If Tsunade had speed like Lee or had some kinda speed training like Sasuke did then she would be a formidable opponent because she will be more likely to land one of her killer punches. Since that isnt the case then I doubt she would be on the same level to compete as Sasuke or Kakashi, From the fight with Kabuto she had quite a lot of trouble...she would be in deeper trouble if she was to fight the two I mentioned earlier.
Tsunade is a medical ninja not really one for fighting top opponents certainly not opponents who are like prodigies in their own rights.

First problem with your reasoning is you're comparing Jounin and kage level speeds to what you saw from Lee as a Genin.. Did you think Lee was faster than Kakashi during his fight with Gaara before opening his gates? Second, the fight she had with Kabuto was her FIRST real fight against a character who was said to be comparable to Kakashi. Even Kabuto was impressed at how well she fought even though she removed herself from battle for so many years. You don't know how well she would do now that she's brought herself back into the Shinobi world.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by kakashi-san

Can I see your reasons for why Tsunade could defeat Sasuke or Kakashi or are you just going to complain about Uchiha fan boys with no actual proof to back it up?

Honestly there are no real reasons, at least for me, other than the fact that she was elected Hokage (and partially because she has never fully fought in any battles). I simply can not imagine any military organization like Konoha electing a representative that can not fight the best that other villages have to offer. It literally makes no sense. The position of Kage should act as a detterent to other villages and missing-nin, i.e. I will not attack X Village because there is at least one member that I know is extrememly strong. It makes no sense to put a person in the position of Kage unless they can battle other Kage level and S-Rank opponents.

[reloaded]

Originally Posted by Vindi89

First problem with your reasoning is you're comparing Jounin and kage level speeds to what you saw from Lee as a Genin.. Did you think Lee was faster than Kakashi during his fight with Gaara before opening his gates? Second, the fight she had with Kabuto was her FIRST real fight against a character who was said to be comparable to Kakashi. Even Kabuto was impressed at how well she fought even though she removed herself from battle for so many years. You don't know how well she would do now that she's brought herself back into the Shinobi world.

I was comparing their speeds at both genin level, Lee and Sasuke before he left the village (had some speed training from kakashi), in addition this has nothing to do whatsoever with speed according to ranks...all i was saying is in short if Tsunade had better speed she would be able to land her killer punches more regularly and have a higher chance of hitting the opponent...simple thats the point I was making.

You dont know if its her first real fight, If im correct she did fight Hanzou back in a war who was seen as extremely powerful and at the time more powerful than the Sannin thats why all three couldnt take him down, I dont believe someone of Kabuto's calibur matches up to Hanzou. After 2 and a half years there might not be much difference...she rarely leaves the village and as far as I know I doubt shes been on the front lines yet.