In shoujo, why the girl ignores nice guys?

[Nightbat®]

Originally Posted by AmandaFields

I don't treat anyone like trash, regardless of gender.

Yet you blatantly state:

Originally Posted by AmandaFields

As far as I'm concerned, all men are just trash that want to hurt you.

And now back on topic please

[Byakou]

Having a bad opinion about men doesn't automatically mean that she goes around doing malicious things to them.

[Chiibi]

Originally Posted by Byakou

Having a bad opinion about men doesn't automatically mean that she goes around doing malicious things to them.

It's pretty sexist though and that's not good either. >_>

I don't think it's good to compare manga "nice boys" to "nice boys in REAL life". Because since they're human beings, nice boys in REAL life, are capable of being interesting people. Doesn't apply so much for nice boys in manga. >_>

But some shoujo do have that bad guys who tried to rape or even gang-raped the heroine and still the heroine is in love with him. I forgot the title of that shoujo, but those kinds to me should be burned in trash.

Agreed 100%! IT'S NOT ROMANTIC AT ALL!! It's really awful! In fact, fire is too good for those manga. People should just use them as toilet paper.

[judasmartel]

Originally Posted by Chiibi

It's pretty sexist though and that's not good either. >_>

I don't think it's good to compare manga "nice boys" to "nice boys in REAL life". Because since they're human beings, nice boys in REAL life, are capable of being interesting people. Doesn't apply so much for nice boys in manga. >_>

And that is why some women perceive"nice guys" in real life to be unmanly n despite the fact that they can be just as manly if given the chance. IMHO, that's unfair, because that would mean the nice guys have to jerk up just to get the girls they like.

Do remember that pretending to be someone you're not in the name of love is one of the most horrible experiences I have ever known.

Spoiler for Food for thought:

See that bully who used to pick on that scrawny, nerdy little kid in school? He now works for THAT guy as a SECURITY GUARD. How about that?

I think the third option for the "nice guys" in real life is to make yourself more interesting and challenging to the woman if you're in a relationship. Jerkassery is obnoxious, but being too nice makes you a piece of cake for the girls.

[DragoonKain3]

Originally Posted by sa547

Seems that we forgot to put the Japanese culture and social norms into account, as how men-women relationships are being depicted is probably different from elsewhere, especially in the West.

Iunno, even in the west there IS the saying that "Nice guys finish last". While I don't have a list to back it up (nor the drive to make one like my childhood friends list), but I reckon more often than not the 'bad boy with a heart of gold' wins over the 'nice guy' in western stuff as well.

Outside of the pseudo-rape stuff of course, but then again we're talking about a culture where their literature doesn't mind 'exploring' controversial stuff (incest being the biggest one that springs to mind)... so I don't count those.

Originally Posted by Chiibi

Except TWATlight does everything wrong.

Yeah I agree, I personally think Twilight is a piece of garbage, but whether it being good or bad doesn't really touch upon the current topic.

[judasmartel]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

Iunno, even in the west there IS the saying that "Nice guys finish last"

All I could say is that nice guys should not take this saying too hard. There's nothing wrong with finishing last. After all, there's a saying that goes, "The last trip is always the best."

[Chiibi]

Originally Posted by judasmartel

And that is why some women perceive"nice guys" in real life to be unmanly n despite the fact that they can be just as manly if given the chance. IMHO, that's unfair, because that would mean the nice guys have to jerk up just to get the girls they like.

Yeah, and it's not like I think being too nice is "unmanly" but sometimes nice guys (at least the ones I've met) go too far because they want to do EVERYTHING for you, including following you everywhere and constantly offering favors. It gets annoying!

I guess I don't want to be treated as a "poor delicate flower who can't open a door for herself". I mean, if you're offering to carry something heavy, that's very kind. If you get the door for me because my hands are full, that's fine too. But don't go overboard and pamper me like a tiny toy poodle. x_x I'm not helpless! I can do things on my own SOMETIMES!

And THEN there are the guys who are so needy; always calling you (I'm talking like SIX times a day!!) and they won't leave you alone! It feels very stalkerish, and I find THAT to be "unmanly", I suppose. But behavior like that from either sex ought to annoy anyone, right?

[judasmartel]

Ayt, now THAT is unmanly. Guys like me should remember that girls have their own lives, too. Worrying about them every goddamn day isn't gonna help. That just means you don't have a life. Girls would actually appreciate it if you get a life of your own and live it, too.

Being manly means you appreciate that girls have lives, too, and they must live it to the fullest before they're ready to give it to you.

I actually did just what was said above, and I have to admit, that was so horrible when she dumped me, but I got better after that, so I guess that's okay.

I get to learn new things everyday, after all.

[risingstar3110]

My apologise, but when i read the thread heading, this is what i thought

[Nightbat®]

Back to topic at hand

The basic idea in anime, that if it goes for the 'nice guy' route, it's actually a pretty non-adventures "Win/Win" situation, AKA BORING
Really, what thrills are there in getting what you can't lose anyway?

[Larthak]

Originally Posted by Nightbat®

Back to topic at hand

The basic idea in anime, that if it goes for the 'nice guy' route, it's actually a pretty non-adventures "Win/Win" situation, AKA BORING
Really, what thrills are there in getting what you can't lose anyway?

Thank you for making sense.

Stories are about struggles, hardships...and the ability to eventually overcome them. If those are not present, neither is content. That'd make an awfully short series, wouldn't it?

[Nightbat®]

Originally Posted by Larthak

Thank you for making sense.

Stories are about struggles, hardships...and the ability to eventually overcome them. If those are not present, neither is content. That'd make an awfully short series, wouldn't it?

I would like to add that 'uneventfull relationships' (for lack of a better term)
are still possible as long as there is other strife available

an actionseries can use threats and dangers from outside sources
for example: the fantastic four
take mister Fantastic and the invisible woman, boring couple, solid relation
(bare with me, I haven't read a US comic in around 20 years)
but since it's not about that there is no need to put it under scrutiny or strain

though ofcourse that can be used as plotdevice
and even then, it's the outside factor testing the relationship, not the relationship testing the relationship

Now take an action anime, with mystery and troubled love, and you have enough material to last yourself a few seasons


but lets continue on the matter

often if not always, romance series end when the main characters 'find eachother' (AKA "..and they live happily ever after")
and usually fans of such a series that get 'closure' do not often wish for an encore
There you can actually see it's the adventure, not the goal that keeps people entertained

(In real life you'll notice people start caring about the goal only when the time comes that they notice their youth is fading, and the thought of ending up alone and unwanted
starts creeping in
something you won't see in a media where the character usually never pass 25 -overstating since most animecharacters never reach their 18th birthday in a series- )

[Kameruka]

Most guys in shounen/seinen harems are nice, at least nicer than most shoujo ones. Tomoya from Clannad is a good example since he cares about the girls.

I also glad to see that no member actually talk about Ouran despite Tamaki is not your average "bad boy" in shoujo shows. It just a parody to begin with.

[DragoonKain3]

Originally Posted by judasmartel

All I could say is that nice guys should not take this saying too hard. There's nothing wrong with finishing last. After all, there's a saying that goes, "The last trip is always the best."

I personally don't see the saying's application in real life, becuase after all, my 'nice guy' best friend was the first to get a GF in our group of friends and was by far the most popular with the ladies.

But in fiction? I can certainly see how the saying is applied, whether it be originating in east or west. Jerks with a heart of gold certainly has more appeal than the typical nice guy, if a certain piece contains both.

[Chiibi]

Originally Posted by Kameruka

Most guys in shounen/seinen harems are nice, at least nicer than most shoujo ones.

I don't know which shoujo you are watching but I have to disagree. At least you're not going to find a shoujo guy who acts like women appall him. Guys like Tenchi really piss me off. Sure, he's a gentleman and all but it seems like he doesn't want to be in ANY relationship with ANY of the girls who like him and he acts like they're a burden to him.

And then there are the REALLY wimpy, dorky guys....who are also perverted, ugh, not my ideal man, that. And there are the shota ones who haven't gone through puberty yet, well, man, that's just wrong.

Tomoya from Clannad is a good example since he cares about the girls.

I have no complaints about the male leads of Visual Key series. They know how to make them! Actually they make them as appealing as shoujo guys. My Air TV guide plainly says the creator wanted to "make Yukito so he appealed to female viewers but cool enough to keep the male ones interested".

I also glad to see that no member actually talk about Ouran despite Tamaki is not your average "bad boy" in shoujo shows. It just a parody to begin with.

You had to bring it up. Interestingly, TamakixHaruhi was the first shoujo couple I shipped that doesn't involve the tsundere. In fact, I abhor the HikaruxHaruhi pairing. I hate that it's so popular! He's inconsiderate towards her. Tamaki treats her better!

What? Just because it's a parody means it shouldn't be taken seriously at all? Kameruka, I know you hate the series but it's not like the whole thing is just one big joke. There are certainly serious scenes that have heart in them.
Kinda like Gurren Lagann. The characters aren't just stereotype jokes on paper, they have feelings and personalities too.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

For me, the question is: “why nice guys in shoujo manga/anime rarely become the male main characters?”. Yes, the bad-boy male charas maybe more interesting than the nice ones most of the times, but I think those bad-boys have better characteristics partially coz they are the male MC, while the nice-guys are just side characters (or at least less MC than the bad boys). You have to admit, being an MC means getting special treatment and more focus from the author. It’s almost equal to better chara-development and more interesting characteristics than the side-characters. If those nice-guys became the male MC, they can be interesting too, I guess.

I wrote this being fully aware that relationship with nice-guys provide less “bumpy road” that many romance needed. Still, a little variation is nice instead of just straight to jerky-boy route all the time. Just a thought.

[Chiibi]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

If those nice-guys became the male MC, they can be interesting too, I guess.

Such as the case with Koko Ni Iru Yo and arguably, Ouran (Yes, I think Tamaki is a nice boy!)

When Tokyo Mew Mew did this though, I hated it. At least with the manga. I might like the anime better...but it's not really a series that focuses on rounded characters-they're all rather flat stereotypes. *sigh*

Anyone who wants to see the nice guy (not a flat Princely type) AND the tsundere win, should really look up Suki desu, Suzuki-kun by Ikeyamada Go-sensei.

Spoiler for plot:

No, the girl doesn't not two-time them. XD There are actually TWO girls. The main(ish) pairing is shy (extreme "moe stereotype!) meganekko Hoshino Sayaka with the nice (mischievous, energetic, "shounen hero"-esque) boy, Suzuki Hikaru who coaxes her out of her shell. But then Hikaru has a childhood friend, Chihiro who (of course) loves him but she's all awesome and uniquely wants to SUPPORT him and the girl he likes because that's f**king what love means and MORE childhood friends should be like that instead of acting like possessive bitches, dammit!! A tsundere, Suzuki Shinobu enters the picture too-he sees the childhood friend crying, learns about her noble feelings, and falls in love with her. Shinobu's actually a rather unique type himself, because though he's very arrogant, tsun-tsun, AND dere-dere, he's extremely honest with confessing his love to Chihiro and swears he just wants to make her happy and get her to smile instead of cry, even if he's just a rebound (!!). Chihiro wants to get over her crush on Hikaru, and after some wooing, and sweet moments between the two, she decides to give Shinobu a chance. So now we have two couples; shy girlxnice boy and osanajimixtsundere/bad boy. Oh yes, and the two girls become BEST friends! And the two boys fight a lot because they don't like each other's personalities but eventually kinda become a team to protect the girls they love.

It's a VERY cute manga!! I love it because it's very different and refreshing from the normal love tangle. All of the characters are very likable and everyone suits each other REALLY well. Even the relationship drama is handled well! And I think male readers could really get into this too because a good deal of the scenes are through the boys' points of view, not just the girls. Pretty cool, huh?

[kenjiharima]

tsunderes......
later they regret not paying attention to the good guy.

[judasmartel]

Originally Posted by kenjiharima

tsunderes......
later they regret not paying attention to the good guy.

OH SO MUCH.

But then again, it depends.

[kenjiharima]

Originally Posted by judasmartel

But then again, it depends.

True it does.
Whatever the author plot maybe it's up to her/him.