[Manga] Naruto Chapter 596 Discussion Thread

[Sasukemaru]

Obito wouldn't know kakashi lived a life of regret, kakashi was just fine when obito was still alive. So tobi would be someone still apart of the leaf well after obito died.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Sasukemaru

Obito wouldn't know kakashi lived a life of regret, kakashi was just fine when obito was still alive. So tobi would be someone still apart of the leaf well after obito died.

its a moot point if tobi is partly obito, since that means obito never really died.

my question should be worded not 'how can tobi know kakashi and gai personally?' tobi can know anything thanks to zetsu's spying ability. but rather it should be asked 'why would tobi care about those characters enough to even have that knowledge and bring it up during this fight?' obito and obito's father are the only ones i can think of who would care. plus, they fit all the other clues.

[b1gdawg]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

its a moot point if tobi is partly obito, since that means obito never really died.

my question should be worded not 'how can tobi know kakashi and gai personally?' tobi can know anything thanks to zetsu's spying ability. but rather it should be asked 'why would tobi care about those characters enough to even have that knowledge and bring it up during this fight?' obito and obito's father are the only ones i can think of who would care. plus, they fit all the other clues.

This is exactly what Kishi wants. He wants to argue over how it is/isn't Obito. Tobi encountered Kakashi a few times, so what he said was irrelevant.

[Sasukemaru]

Exactly what b1gdawg said. Kishi is taking obito fans for a ride, he didn't hide tobi's identity to give it away at the very end before the mask comes off. It's quite obvious what kishi wants ppl to be thinking, which also makes it quite obvious that isn't going to turn out to be the case. It's a very simple techniques writers use to confuse and surprise. The fact few ppl are catching on to this is a bigger mystery then "who is tobi?"

[prakash123]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

how do you know he isnt using MS? we never see his eye close up when he uses kamui. the reason we dont see tobi's MS is because it would be a dead giveaway as to who is

let me stop u just right there.I THINK it's been shown up close when tobi uses kamui/whatever in the fight between himself and konan and it was in normal sharingan mode

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by b1gdawg

This is exactly what Kishi wants. He wants to argue over how it is/isn't Obito.

right. he obviously wants us to be debating it which is exactly what we are doing. i dont know about you guys but i find it fun, so i'm not complaining about kishi's writing methods at all.

Tobi encountered Kakashi a few times, so what he said was irrelevant.

and that tells us what? that he gleaned kakashi's and gai's personalities and now somehow cares about their idiosyncrasies? i dont see that for a character of tobi's caliber unless he once had a vested interest in a couple of konoha jounins. its not like he knew fuu and torune's or yamato's, etc... personal traits or gave a crap about them and their personalities and they are all on the same level as kakashi and gai pretty much

tobi: ah fuu, you just haven't been the same since your dog died. ...and torune, don't get me started on your daddy issues

those guys were just pieces of meat to tobi. kakashi on the other hand is continually getting spared by tobi and treated as a person of interest in conversation

Originally Posted by Sasukemaru

It's quite obvious what kishi wants ppl to be thinking, which also makes it quite obvious that isn't going to turn out to be the case. It's a very simple techniques writers use to confuse and surprise.

i totally agree about the writing technique stuff. but the problem arises that no other theories hold water. aside form obito's dad which as i stated many times that i like, but you continually ignore as if it doesn't even exist

The fact few ppl are catching on to this is a bigger mystery then "who is tobi?"

catching on to what? every other theory is either proven wrong or about a fluff character like rin or kagami. if it's someone like kagami then that would be sloppy writing since literally nothing suggests it is him and he was in the manga for about a page

Originally Posted by prakash123

let me stop u just right there.I THINK it's been shown up close when tobi uses kamui/whatever in the fight between himself and konan and it was in normal sharingan mode

well i dont think so. care to offer a reference page number on this one?

[Sasukemaru]

So let me get this straight....Kagami who had one appearance one one page is just fluff, and has no chance of being tobi, but "obito's dad" who has zero appearances on zero pages is a legitimate possibility? Let me know how that makes sense again.

The truth is, tobi has nothing to do with obito, not a relative, not a vessel, not obito himself, just no.....

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Sasukemaru

So let me get this straight....Kagami who had one appearance one one page is just fluff, and has no chance of being tobi, but "obito's dad" who has zero appearances on zero pages is a legitimate possibility? Let me know how that makes sense again.

the kamui technique similarity, knowing and caring about kakashi and gai, relevance to a character with a story arc, close relatives with someone who has MS potential

think about this from a writing perspective. if tobi is kagami, who will care or know who that is? nobody aside from the 2 konoha elders who haven't been present in the current story for years. not exactly impactful is it? kagami was never shown as anything but a normal uchiha. sarutobi and danzo were the standouts from that group. you might as well think tobi is the akamichi ninja

if tobi is a fluff character then it will just take a bunch of explaining and flashbacks to make it work since there have been no clues for them yet. not exactly impactful there.

tobi: it is I, uchiha kagami!

everyone: who?

tobi: let me explain for 7 chapters. excited yet?

The truth is, tobi has nothing to do with obito, not a relative, not a vessel, not obito himself, just no.....

oh so that's the truth...

[HiddenMessage]

Tobi would have to be someone who knows the past in great detail, to the point that he must have lived it. Why was Madara's brother written off as Tobi? He would have the knowledge Madara knows as they fought, lived, and competed. Faking one's death isn't difficult in the series. And the only ones who have said that he died was Itachi and Tobi. Tobi lies and proven that Itachi doesn't know everything about him. In conclusion, my vote goes to Tobi being Madara's Brother.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by HiddenMessage

Why was Madara's brother written off as Tobi? He would have the knowledge Madara knows as they fought, lived, and competed. Faking one's death isn't difficult in the series. And the only ones who have said that he died was Itachi and Tobi

well, madara himself says he's dead. check out ch577 p6 and on. of course he could be lying, but he has no reason to lie to the kages who he doesn't even remotely respect. it would be like tobi lying to konan before he killed her, which apparently a lot of people believe he did even though he had no reason to do it

[HiddenMessage]

A good poker player never reviews his hand. Madara is a smart man. He could be lying for insurance. But that page sure killed my theory.
The pieces fit though... =\
If Tobi is Madara's brother, that would explain why we never see him use MS, because the eyes were with Madara. And transplanting Sharingans is quite common.
Refresh my memories, does Madara know who Tobi is or does he give any faint gestures as to him knowing his true identity?

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by HiddenMessage

If Tobi is Madara's brother, that would explain why we never see him use MS, because the eyes were with Madara. And transplanting Sharingans is quite common.
Refresh my memories, does Madara know who Tobi is or does he give any faint gestures as to him knowing his true identity?

like I've been debating with some other people, just because we haven't seen tobi's MS doesn't mean that he doesn't have one. the reason kishi hasn't shown it is quite simple. because the design would give away tobi's identity to the readers, or at least the identity of whose eye he is currently using.

I assume madara knows who tobi is based on the moon's eye plan and history of tobi giving nagato madara's rinnegan, but there haven't been any crystal clear hints so far that he does in fact know it. of course, i also believe that tobi is in part madara, so given that, I obviously believe madara knows everything that is going on

[b1gdawg]

I think every1 completely forgot HOW Tobi was able to recover Deidera's arm (the akatsuki ring) after Kakashi used his Kamui on it. I never seen a post about it, but yah that woulda explained how they coulda fought Tobi before.

[xKeir]

Originally Posted by b1gdawg

I think every1 completely forgot HOW Tobi was able to recover Deidera's arm (the akatsuki ring) after Kakashi used his Kamui on it. I never seen a post about it, but yah that woulda explained how they coulda fought Tobi before.

Actually, Kakashi severed his arm. He didn't destroy the whole arm. I guess the arm was left falling down to some unknown forest/bushes, which was why he made his way there to find it.

For example, if

[------------------ ]this line was his arm, Kakashi's Kamui did this.

[--________ ------]the spaces being the part that was 'Teleported' to another dimension.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by b1gdawg

I think every1 completely forgot HOW Tobi was able to recover Deidera's arm (the akatsuki ring) after Kakashi used his Kamui on it. I never seen a post about it, but yah that woulda explained how they coulda fought Tobi before.

Kakashi only teleported Deidara's elbow.
Check out chap 355 page 8, Deidara replaced it with a wood/Zetsu thingy stitched by Kakuzu to connect the remaining parts of his arm.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

well, madara himself says he's dead. check out ch577 p6 and on. of course he could be lying, but he has no reason to lie to the kages who he doesn't even remotely respect.

He also could have told the truth considering he awakened the Rinnengan before his death. In this case Tobi would be Izuna raised -somewhat wrong- from the grave thanks to Rinne Tensei.

[Shining Celebi]

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

He had long hair at least up until 7 years after the 9-tails attack. We know this because of the flashback where Itachi meets with Tobi. About 6 years after the Uchiha massacre we see Tobi again with short hair and a new mask design when he was revealed as the behind-the-scenes leader of Akatsuki.

I think the long hair was just a way for him to look like Madara by giving himself Madara hair. When he adopted the persona of "Tobi", he went back to short hair. I don't think there's a lot going on with the hair. I mean it leads to the question of whether Tobi is two different people. But, I don't believe that's the case. According to the timeline, the original Madara was dead during any time in which Tobi was shown to be around.

Tobi and Madara were around at the same time.

Chapter 559, page 2: "So that little brat Nagato managed to grow...", believing he was resurrected via Rinne Tensei.

This means that Madara must have been alive at least a couple of years before Jiraiya found Nagato.

Chapter 460: "This is definitely his doing, but things don't seem to be going to plan."

Madara and Tobi definitely were around at the same time, communicated, and were working (at least at one point) toward a common goal which included the resurrection of Madara.

The question is when Madara himself died. One thought is that he died when he gave his Rinnegan to Nagato.

On the other hand, for me it is easier to explain the long-hair versus the short-hair as the long-haired guy actually being Madara.

At the same time, Kisame first saw the long-haired version reveal himself and the short-haired version, and recognized them both as Madara.

AND we know that Itachi figured out that Madara was alive, and met with him (the long-haired version) and sought his help in the Uchiha massacre. I think this is the most logical place for the real Madara to die.

I think Tobi is, among other things, a piece of Madara. I think his brother is also involved, and Zetsu material. Madara created him in part to keep his plans going and provide for his resurrection.

It strains incredulity to think that Itachi would be wrong, the Fourth would be wrong that "nobody but Madara could do this", and the Tsuchikage would know nobody but Madara who could have done this, and then that Kisame would recognize them as Madara when there are giant statues of Madara out there. Tobi/Madara also told Konan just before he killed her that he was Madara with Hashirama's power. He had no reason to lie.

EDIT: I like Hunter's suggestion that a Rinne Tensei of Izuna went wrong.

And I just realized that Madara cannot have used Izanagi to survive the battle with Hashirama, because assuming Nagato's Rinnegan is his, there are two of them. Unless Rinnegan removes the sacrifice requirement.

[itachi-san314]

I think long hair and short hair tobi have to be the same person since both kisame and itachi knew him at both times and didn't have any questions as to his identity.

I like the idea of izuna being resurrected by rinnegan by madara before madara's death, but a few things wouldn't add up in that case. it's of course possible that some things simply will not make sense when tobi's identity is revealed, like how Hunter pointed out recently that tobi not capturing naruto several times was 'just because...'

if tobi is izuna in any way, then ch 577 makes no sense imo since madara clearly states that his brother just left his ocular power after he died. if izuna is tobi then he's a lot more than just a pair of eyes to madara. and him not taking kakashi's eye after many opportunities. also tobi's speech to konan makes no sense. and it wouldn't even make sense for tobi to call himself madara. since it's a fact that izuna was just as powerful as madara (arguably slightly less powerful) wouldn't izuna's name carry almost just as much weight as madara's? it's the equivalant of sasuke masking himself and calling himself itachi, when sasuke is already known to be a force to be reckoned with. it's just like a mystery for the sake of having a mystery in that case

[MegaDarkly]

Everything that Kishimoto does in this series is vague. Since he hasn't given us enough information about who Tobi really is, he leads us on with many different clues that could lead us in any direction and leave us baffled for days because we overthink all of the possibilities. Anything can happen and with an earlier statement I saw, it's a possibility that someone is using Obito's body as a vessel for their own use.

I also believe that showing Tobi's MS would give everything away(What Itachi-san314 mentioned) so Kishimoto has kept that under wraps for now. I think we'll figure out pretty soon just who's under that mask and we'll all either do a double take or get mad about it. I just wish they'd break his mask already.

[MeroBAKA]

Originally Posted by Hunter

He also could have told the truth considering he awakened the Rinnengan before his death. In this case Tobi would be Izuna raised -somewhat wrong- from the grave thanks to Rinne Tensei.

I believe more that the failed attempt becomes Black Zetsu
I already posted about it here:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...01#post4051301
One of the reasons would be that since Madara knows about Nidaime's Edo Tensei, his brother would also know it, while we saw that Tobi had no clue about it before being explained by Kabuto.
It is still a possibility that Tobi is Izuna though. Nothing is really confirmed.

The fact that Tobi's techniques is actually only one justu is purely genius on different levels. The variations of the jutsu make sense and it serves the scenario in a tricky way. Well played Kishi.
Beforehand, I tried to think of his two techniques as one coming from Uchiha power and another one coming from Senju power, but I did not find this way coherent.
I am still a little puzzled about the dematerializing that can only go for 5 minutes, while he can project his whole body into this another dimension (for example when he spoke with Sasuke and Karin). Is there a time limit for him to be in this dimension?
I bet this dimension is inside the Gedo.
Now that they know the trick and can come up with a strategy to win against Tobi I assume the flow of events will be broken by the arrival of Madara and he will have his weapon back.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by MegaDarkly

he leads us on with many different clues that could lead us in any direction and leave us baffled for days because we overthink all of the possibilities.

And looking back at already revelead things we also see some plot holes. When the author makes things complicated he is also more likely to make mistakes, for example miscalculation of the timeline.

So i think that when reasoning about Tobi's true identity we can drop some "evidence" because it's a plot hole. The question is which part or parts could be these fake evidences. Even now in the debates here people prioritize evidences in a different way, for example one says that Tobi's words are more important and another says that Madara's words. But i think pictures should be always more important than translated sentences, which could also be mistranslated or simply misinterpreted when not knowing the exact context.

So for example if we take away from the evidences Madara's recent sentence about Izuna being dead then Tobi being Izuna seems to the best idea. Maybe Madara said this because he thinks Tobi betrayed him and he thinks Iznuna would have never done that.

Or maybe as Hunter said the rinne tensei that Madara used went wrong. Actually it could go wrong in a way that would bring in another idea described by Hunter: maybe too much time passed between the rinne tensei and Izuna's death and because of that the jutsu could not single out Izuna's soul from those surrounding it and accidentally brought back a mixture of souls of Izuna and other Uchiha and related (enemies, other clans) ninjas. In that case Izuna's mind would be dominating this mixture but his mind would be also filled with a lot of conflicting thoughts and feelings and hatred. And to bring peace to his soul which has all these conflicting feelings of past ninja who died in a world of hatred he found that the solution for himself and the whole ninja world is to be united into one singularity. Then to make himself "whole" he wants to unite in himself not only those few hundred souls but every human soul that lives. So for example Tobi is 40% Iznuna's mind and 1% for each of 60 other ninja, the knowledge being the combined knowledge of all these people would explain Tobi's vast knowledge and the strong feelings combined would explain Tobi's strange goal and attitude towards people. And most importantly it can explain why doesn't Madara regard him as being his real brother when he say Izuna is already dead.