Morality in Death Note? Do the ends justify the means?

[ArrowSmith]

Kira - "I am Justice". 'Nuff said.

[SaffyC]

Hey- wait a second. If Light only kills criminals.. that's a fault of his method right there. Some countires have quite.. corrupted justice systems. So it isn't a given that the people he's killing are definitely evil. The Death Note can only be used to kill, not find out if a person is good. So, I guess he has a lot of faith in the justice system as well. (And what about the nationalities of his victims? Will he focus only he Europe, North America and Asia because those are the only countries being reported on his TV?

[GOP]

Originally Posted by SaffyC

Hey- wait a second. If Light only kills criminals.. that's a fault of his method right there. Some countires have quite.. corrupted justice systems. So it isn't a given that the people he's killing are definitely evil. The Death Note can only be used to kill, not find out if a person is good. So, I guess he has a lot of faith in the justice system as well. (And what about the nationalities of his victims? Will he focus only he Europe, North America and Asia because those are the only countries being reported on his TV?

First of I think the countries that is not showing criminals in TV, on the internet and so on is rather strict in their judgement anyway and it also kinda answers your second question as well. These countries have a verry currupt justice system and so it couldnt be used anyway.

Second it is a series, I think when he spends countles hours writing in that book inhis room finding criminals on the internet he also does some reseach on his victims. We dont see when they go to the bathroom or when they sleep, Im sure they cut out the boring part when he does his research as well... Atleast in the beginning, maybe not in the end were he is not even passing judgement but his followers are instead.

[kimchipride]

Death Note has some parallels with Watchmen with the sense that people are killed for a better cause. Except in Watchmen, Kira actually wins.

I think the ends do justify the means. Kill millions to save billions.

[Nevflinn]

Originally Posted by GOP

Second it is a series, I think when he spends countles hours writing in that book inhis room finding criminals on the internet he also does some reseach on his victims. We dont see when they go to the bathroom or when they sleep, Im sure they cut out the boring part when he does his research as well... Atleast in the beginning, maybe not in the end were he is not even passing judgement but his followers are instead.

To me, it's completely out-of-character for Light to consider that a criminal might not be a criminal - that would be giving them respect and thought, and it's evident throughout the series how little respect Light has for human life other than his own. He wouldn't give them a second thought.

Also in the beginning of the show L starts off probably by most people looking like the good guy by claiming that even though they are the lives are criminals, they are still human lives and that it is wrong to kill them so he will attempt to stop Kira. As the show continues L begins to show more of his personality in front of the Task Force and shows that he will do extreme methods just to obtain clues on Kira. Methods such as even in the beginning using Linder L. Taylor in order for L to confirm a hunch he had, he was willing to sacrifice a human life in order to get a clue on a hunch. Also when L first obtained the notebook he was willing to sacrifice the life of a criminal to test the powers of the notebook.

Taylor was going to die anyway, keep in mind - he was to be sentenced to death, anyway. Had Light not murdered him, Taylor would have been allowed to live instead of facing execution. So therefore, L was giving Light a chance to save that man's life - which he didn't.

There's no denying that L's methods weren't 100% pure. He does what he believes to be necessary, yet still within the restraints of morality. There's a massive difference between incarcerating someone for a number of weeks and murdering people in massive quantities, not only regardless of what they've done, but ignorant of it too.

On another note, I haven't really thought about this much because I take into account what the creators themselves intended to portray through Death Note. And they said- It's just meant to be a satisfying adventure, not such a huge debate topic. And that's fine with me.

It means less mental workouts.

I like to loopjerk that by using the methods and actions of the characters to help define their persona and the text as a whole - as any analyst should. E.g. Light's use of deceit to kill Naomi marks the point of no return for his soul (though it's probable that had been lost earlier), for one of many examples.

Not to mention the field day you can have with analysing the Shinigami world and Ryuk's current boredom with it.

[StevOmaru]

Originally Posted by Nevflinn

Taylor was going to die anyway, keep in mind - he was to be sentenced to death, anyway. Had Light not murdered him, Taylor would have been allowed to live instead of facing execution. So therefore, L was giving Light a chance to save that man's life - which he didn't.

There's no denying that L's methods weren't 100% pure. He does what he believes to be necessary, yet still within the restraints of morality. There's a massive difference between incarcerating someone for a number of weeks and murdering people in massive quantities, not only regardless of what they've done, but ignorant of it too.

First off, I don't believe that Taylor would have been released just because Kira didn't pass judgment on him, I am very sure that they would plan to execute him as before if Kira didn't kill him. The only difference would have been the time of death for Taylor.
Also just because Taylor was going to die from execution that day anyway, doesn't mean that killing him otherwise would mean that it was OK to murder Taylor. Even if a criminal is put on death row, it is still considered murder to kill that person otherwise.

[Nevflinn]

Originally Posted by StevOmaru

First off, I don't believe that Taylor would have been released just because Kira didn't pass judgment on him, I am very sure that they would plan to execute him as before if Kira didn't kill him. The only difference would have been the time of death for Taylor.
Also just because Taylor was going to die from execution that day anyway, doesn't mean that killing him otherwise would mean that it was OK to murder Taylor. Even if a criminal is put on death row, it is still considered murder to kill that person otherwise.

But L didn't kill Taylor - Light did.
Also note that L didn't actually believe himself that Light could kill people without actually being present.

That's a fine opinion as long as you can support it. It's an interesting question what L would do in the case that Light hadn't killed Lind Taylor (though anyone's fate was sealed from the moment they call Light's methods evil, even if they are. :V ). I personally believe L would urge him be let live, but there'd be a catch to it - perhaps life sentence or reduced sentence if Taylor survived. L can be many things, but the one thing he has never been is a backstabber - which to be honest, is more than what we can say for Light if you know what I mean.

[SaffyC]

The thing that bothers me most, however, is that the author was implying that all of humanity was basically "bad", not just our morals and justice systems. Let's face it. Not a single character acts on purely good motives. L's in for the chase/challenge (sorry, L!) Light's in for power, ultimately. Mello's in for proving his worth. Even Soichiro, who is the one "pure" character in the show, doesn't add much to the story development-wise.

I was reading this DN essay, and it struck a good point:

"Ultimately, the real cult of Kira, in Death Note, is society at large - as lacking in self-awareness and as desensitized to itself as the monster it created. In a postmodern world where good and evil no longer exist, we have no need for "real" heroes and villains, and indeed are happy to accept all substitutions. Light is frequently ridiculous, but his very sexuality, Obata's fanservicing of him, the way he is drawn, presents him to us as an idol: and we idolize him to our heart's content. We idolize him because we have no real, meaningful heroes to take his place; and our idolization perpetuates the shallow ideals that created him to begin with.

And that inescapable, bleak crux is where Death Note, at its blackest and most cynical, becomes truly terrifying: because through the very act of reading and enjoying the story, we, the reader, have become implicit, willing participants in the cult of Kira ourselves." -from http://deathnotes.kefi.org/

I mean, seriously. At least Lord of the Flies didn't have the boys killin' each other from the very start. It progressed from "oh this sounds plausible" to "this still sounds plausible but that's why it's scary!". That's what makes a true masterpiece. Because of the fact that it could happen, it places the story out of the range where you know that such evil could not exist (Voldemort stands firmly in this category), and, therefore, feel safe from what is happening because it will never happen to you/humanity. How Ralph and Piggy cling to morals even as the others start to feel the need to kill, is both appreciated and deappreciated.

But I'm getting off track. What I mean is, there was a certain point in the Death Note storyline when I felt that something was just wrong. I don't mean that I'm the incarnation of pure good, of course- but to have no characters who are even slightly pure-hearted (and I know quite a few people who would stand up for Kira in the name of societal justice and be willing to throw away their life for that justice) and with pure motives.. It kind of made me think that Ohba/Obata was going a bit TOO far with the cynicism thing.

Discussion appreciated. Especially from you, Nevflinn- I'm curious to hear what you think of this.

[Aquaman OS]

I thought the author said that he intentionally kept any pure good characters out of the series so readers would not worry about morals and just enjoy the plotting and plans unfolding.

Death Note was about the plot and plans. Not characters and who was right or wrong.

[Sinfully Naomi]

Originally Posted by SaffyC

The thing that bothers me most, however, is that the author was implying that all of humanity was basically "bad", not just our morals and justice systems. Let's face it. Not a single character acts on purely good motives. L's in for the chase/challenge (sorry, L!) Light's in for power, ultimately. Mello's in for proving his worth. Even Soichiro, who is the one "pure" character in the show, doesn't add much to the story development-wise.

I was reading this DN essay, and it struck a good point:

"Ultimately, the real cult of Kira, in Death Note, is society at large - as lacking in self-awareness and as desensitized to itself as the monster it created. In a postmodern world where good and evil no longer exist, we have no need for "real" heroes and villains, and indeed are happy to accept all substitutions. Light is frequently ridiculous, but his very sexuality, Obata's fanservicing of him, the way he is drawn, presents him to us as an idol: and we idolize him to our heart's content. We idolize him because we have no real, meaningful heroes to take his place; and our idolization perpetuates the shallow ideals that created him to begin with.

And that inescapable, bleak crux is where Death Note, at its blackest and most cynical, becomes truly terrifying: because through the very act of reading and enjoying the story, we, the reader, have become implicit, willing participants in the cult of Kira ourselves." -from http://deathnotes.kefi.org/

I mean, seriously. At least Lord of the Flies didn't have the boys killin' each other from the very start. It progressed from "oh this sounds plausible" to "this still sounds plausible but that's why it's scary!". That's what makes a true masterpiece. Because of the fact that it could happen, it places the story out of the range where you know that such evil could not exist (Voldemort stands firmly in this category), and, therefore, feel safe from what is happening because it will never happen to you/humanity. How Ralph and Piggy cling to morals even as the others start to feel the need to kill, is both appreciated and deappreciated.

But I'm getting off track. What I mean is, there was a certain point in the Death Note storyline when I felt that something was just wrong. I don't mean that I'm the incarnation of pure good, of course- but to have no characters who are even slightly pure-hearted (and I know quite a few people who would stand up for Kira in the name of societal justice and be willing to throw away their life for that justice) and with pure motives.. It kind of made me think that Ohba/Obata was going a bit TOO far with the cynicism thing.

Discussion appreciated. Especially from you, Nevflinn- I'm curious to hear what you think of this.

Hey, Sayu was pure! *shot*

I think DN had to just do with the fact that doing the right things the wrong way isn't the way to go. Of course that's probably nto what the author would've thought when making it. That was purely my own speculation of it, and that makes me think that Light was wrong, even if they were criminals, some of them got killed for very misdemeanor crimes. Light was far too harsh on things, and punishing people who were senetnced to death, and could've probably turned their lives around is what puts Light in the wrong.

And Light was wrong no matter what. He was killing criminals making himself a criminal in turn, no matter what the ends were, it doesn't justify the means in any way possible. As I said earlier, Light confused himself with a god. As intelligent as he was, he was wrong, no matter how you sugar coat it, try to back it up with your logic, it's wrong to kill someone, by other means than self defense. He lied to make it seem like he was right. When you kill someone you have to lie to yourself so much to justify it, to make it right in your own mind, Light must have had to do that a lot.

In short, my conclusion is there is no morality in Death Note, the ends do not justify the means.

[SaffyC]

I absolutely agree with you. I can't understand how some people "like" Light's methods, unless their lives had something to do with the kind of "unfair justice" Light was talking about. Then, maybe... (Like, if a loved one was killed by a criminal and they didn't go to jail or something...)

[ArrowSmith]

Soichiro yagami was a pure character.

[Scarlett_Rain55]

Why would light kill people in Jail? If I ever got sent to jail it would be a gift if I died. So he's basically freeing them, he should've made them suffer in jail instead and kill the ones that are roaming about.

[DeathZKID]

Originally Posted by Scarlett_Rain55

Why would light kill people in Jail? If I ever got sent to jail it would be a gift if I died. So he's basically freeing them, he should've made them suffer in jail instead and kill the ones that are roaming about.

But it would be easier to find photos and names as prisoners details are surely written somewhere, not like those who have yet to be caught.

Plus I take it as he wanted to prove a point to L at some point and prisoners dying in a cell are sure to be discovered right away.

[Aquaman OS]

He only seemed to do that at first, mainly because he was testing the DNs power and needed easy targets.

He seemed to do this less and less as time went on and his motives slipped from "Create a world where the bad people are dead" to "Create a world where I am worshipped as a God and everyone who doesn't fear and worship me are dead." and his targets shifted from criminals to people who had outlived their usefulness and people who were trying to get him.

Justice my ass.

On another note I can't understand how people can say that L is just as bad if not worse than Light? How? Because he's not a idotically noble self sacrificing hero with light shining out of every orifice on his body? Nobody's like that these days. He's without a doubt morally superior to Light in everyway.

He pretends to be Light's friend despite secretly hating his guts in order to trick him into revealing himself. And? Considering how right he was about what a monster Light was can you blame him? He made the right choice there. I give him credit for not just assuming that because seemed well mannered and was an excellent student and was all pretty and bishonen that Light was a holy and innocent man. Well met L. If only half the fanbase was as smart as you. Not to mention Light does the exact same thing to him while gleefully planning to murder him with a smile on his face and a song in his heart.

L sacrificed criminals in his quest against Kira. Harsh I admit but he did tell them the risks and offered them a pardon in exchange. Lind L Tailor knew what he was getting into when he showed up on tv. The supposed criminals that would test the DN would also know the same thing. If they valued their life more than a chance at freedom they could have opted out.

L was only after criminals because he liked the challenge rather than for the good of all. True but theres no rule that says all heroics must be done only for the greater good. L did seem to generally care about the people Kira was killing too. He wasn't happy about it at all. When that one member of their team died L was pissed. You can't say he doesn't care about them. Light on the other hand viewed himself as superior to every other single human being in the world and only saw others as tools. If they died for him he couldn't care less, and if they were no longer useful to him he would kill them himself. Real nice guy there.

And the number one reason I think L is by far the better man....L proved he was sincere and could walk the walk as well as talk the talk when it came down to it. Light on the other hand was all talk and despite his inner monologuing about how strong his will was and how he was only one who could make the decisions for a good world turned out to be a pathetic coward when his feet were put in the fire.

L was well aware of his possible death and made preparations for Near or Mello to take over. When he realized Light got him he seemed to calm down in death as if he accepted what would happen so long as his will would be carried out. He proved that he believed his ideals were more important to him than his life.

Now look at Light. He made no plans for any successors and only cared about ruling the world himself. When his plan came crashing down in the end he turned into a whiny baby crying for anybody and everybody to save him and how he didn't want to die because he was so awesome. The world of Kira could have very well lived on without him even if he did die there as Kira was already well known.

But no Light just cared about his own life beyond everything else. This basically proved to me that Light's ranting about justice and perfect world was either a final excuse in case he was ever caught (and when he said this it just made the Task Force view him as insane) or him trying to justify his own actions to himself, and Light was in fact just an asshole who got off on bullying people with his Death Note. A monster just as bad as the world he claimed to hate. Light was just a serial killer who was full of hot air. A demonstration of how given power and so called model citizen could easily turn bad perhaps?

[ArrowSmith]

But no Light just cared about his own life beyond everything else. This basically proved to me that Light's ranting about justice and perfect world was either a final excuse in case he was ever caught (and when he said this it just made the Task Force view him as insane) or him trying to justify his own actions to himself, and Light was in fact just an asshole who got off on bullying people with his Death Note. A monster just as bad as the world he claimed to hate. Light was just a serial killer who was full of hot air. A demonstration of how given power and so called model citizen could easily turn bad perhaps?

That's unfair! I think Light was brilliant and lost only because there too many forces arrayed against him. He defeated L which is proof enough of his greatness. That you hate him is irrelevant. He should go down as a Caesar.

[Aquaman OS]

Smart people can be evil too.

And Light lost because he was having too much fun and just couldn't resist taunting Near one last time. Had he kept his mouth shut he might have been able to talk his way out of it.

And he hired that psycho Mikami. Had he been a better judge of character maybe he might have won. Of course the fact that Light found any postive qualities at all in that other monster Mikami is just more proof of how messed up Light himself was.

Good prevails pal. The DN world is better off now that Light is gone.

[RDF2050]

Spoiler:

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Now look at Light. He made no plans for any successors and only cared about ruling the world himself. When his plan came crashing down in the end he turned into a whiny baby crying for anybody and everybody to save him and how he didn't want to die because he was so awesome. The world of Kira could have very well lived on without him even if he did die there as Kira was already well known.

But no Light just cared about his own life beyond everything else. This basically proved to me that Light's ranting about justice and perfect world was either a final excuse in case he was ever caught (and when he said this it just made the Task Force view him as insane) or him trying to justify his own actions to himself, and Light was in fact just an asshole who got off on bullying people with his Death Note. A monster just as bad as the world he claimed to hate. Light was just a serial killer who was full of hot air. A demonstration of how given power and so called model citizen could easily turn bad perhaps?

I support you 1000% with Light only thinking about himself instead of find a succesor and made a real better world. COOKIES!!!!

I just finished Watch it

[vedicardi]

Originally Posted by kimchipride

Death Note has some parallels with Watchmen with the sense that people are killed for a better cause. Except in Watchmen, Kira actually wins.

I think the ends do justify the means. Kill millions to save billions.

In watchmen, it was justifiable, but DN is totally different in that Kira doesn't save billions of lives, he just kills suspects of crimes and people already in jail.

[Aquaman OS]

I can't recall Light actually saving a single person that wasn't only in danger due to his own actions to be honest. If anything he just put more people in danger.