Fate/stay night Episode 24 Discussion thread

[Wandering_Youth]

Got to love bittersweet endings! This is great anime with a memorable ending, however the ending where you hear Mamiko Noto voicing Bedivere made it a little akward. She just doesn't sound right trying to voice for a guy.

[rpgman1]

Mamiko Noto was better off in Witchblade. I freaked out at Sir Bedivere because he looks like a much taller and masculine version of Saber (hurts to hear that his character is voiced by a woman). I hope the English dub will used a man to voice Sir Bedivere. Anyway what dubbing studio will be involved in Fate Stay Night? The same one that did Tsukihime?

[roan]

uh why are people saying saber goes to avalon?
she just dies, period.

avalon's completely different from the hall of heroes.

[Village Idiot]

Originally Posted by roan

uh why are people saying saber goes to avalon?
she just dies, period.

avalon's completely different from the hall of heroes.

When Saber died, her body was sent to Avalon to be layed to rest.

[roan]

that's the history we know. that's not what happened here. she's dead, not sleeping.

avalon is the sheath. it doesn't transport the user to avalon, it breaks apart and surrounds the user.

[Matt Soulblade]

Well, its was a very good ending
:sigh:, gonna miss FSN

[diopter]

Well, watched episode 24 twice more for better closure. I don't really get what is with these recurring themes that appear throughout the Fate Stay Night threads:

1) No UBW even though it's in opening credits.

It is fairly common for opening credit scenes to have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the anime storyline itself. Examples: Full Metal Alchemist, Full Metal Panic (second raid, whatever fancies you). Yes, it's a teaser. Yes, it sucks there wasn't any UBW action. But it was pretty obvious the anime was going to the Fate scenario as that is the real ending to Fate Stay Night (hence titled "Fate ending").


2) No happy/Sabersex (cybersex wha?)/Shirou harem action ending wtf!!!11

It's Type-Moon, and it's Fate scenario, don't expect a happy ending. I personally don't think a happy ending will do the series justice. Many people wanted Saber to stay or Shirou forcing Saber to stay, but that really kills the entire point of the show and the purpose it is trying to convey to the viewing audience. You want Saber to toss away her oath and live with Shirou? That'd kill what Saber stands for and tosses away the image of Shirou being selfless (ie., opposite of selfish). I won't even go into the Shirou Harem Brigade, because that's just plain retarded. Go watch Tenchi or something if you want it that bad .


3) The ending is ambiguous and we don't know what happened!

It doesn't hurt to use the big lump of tissue above your neck once in a while. Seriously, I'm trying really hard not to bash the haters, but it's difficult. I don't hate or love open-ended endings. It opens the door for interpretation, which is fine. I actually find it interesting that half the people I talk to say the ending means this this this and the other half says that that that. We got spoon-fed for a lot during the series of Fate Stay Night, so I'm not opposed to an episode where we the viewers draw our own conclusions based on our cognitive abilities and personal experiences.

Does FSN have its faults? Yeah there are some real ones like lack of development for certain characters and how the anime tried to half-ass their way of combining 3 scenarios into 1. I agree in that FSN could be way better, but this doesn't change the fact that it still had a very nice story and ended very well in my opinion.

[rpgman1]

The series seem to imply to those who have played all three paths of the game (not including Hollow Ataraxia). Is Saber really dead? From the looks of it, she gave up Excalibur (returned it to the Lady of the Lake by Bedivere) and wanted to take a long rest.

[Blizzer]

I thought the ending was good because many animes tend to have unsatisfying endings that either don't tie up loose ends or are just plain dissapointing, but this doesn't happen in FSN they definitely made an exciting conclusion.

I definitely don't want to see the other scenarios made.

Im not sure whether we will see anymore, after a succesful run of episodes they often make the series that happens in the future with a brand new enemy if that happens its fine with me as long as it isn't Fate/Hollow
(hmm Fate the Movie would be good right about now)

Hopefully, since the series has ended, the forum stays a place for good discussion and doesn't just become generic posts about who's stronger than who and fanboys/girls shouting about their love for a character.
(Rin rocks!!!!! )

[andiyar]

diopter++

Nine out of ten for this episodes. Teetered on giving it a ten, but the fight scenes were a little too... lacklustre? Anyway, not quite perfect. Second highest rating I've given F/SN, i believe, after episode 14.

Overall, by the scale that kj1980 has devised for rating Fate/stay night episodes, I'd give Fate around a 7 to an 8 rating, between Good and Very Good. The first half of the show deserves higher ratings than the second half, based on how well character development was progressing. It was when the 'main plot' kicked in that it started to be a liability in terms of time, and that time liability meant that the characters themselves, apart from Shirou & Saber, were shelved in order to push the plot. This really did detract from the potential that I thought Fate/stay night exhibited - it could have been much better.

How? Perhaps starting the plot of earlier. Originally, it was possible to understand what was going on in the show without game spoilers. This became close to impossible as we continued, as the shows became denser and faster. The obvious solution? If Studio DEEN weren't going to make it comprehensible in the first place, they could have kick started the plot a lot earlier. This would have led to a greater meld of character and plot pacing - although, in another sense, it would have made the show even more incomprehensible.

What Fate really needs is another four or five episodes, situated from episode twelve through to around episode twenty two. Extend the plot, continue with the characters they dropped, whilst still pushing the story. I'm willing to bet it could have been done, but the finances weren't there... and besides, who does two and a half seasons for a show, rather than either two or three?

That said - still buying the OSTs, still buying the DVDs, keeping eyes out for a nice wallscroll/poster or two and maybe a figurine. Highly appreciated the show, and very much enjoyed it, despite its ups and downs. Bravo, Studio DEEN - we got there in the end.


-Andiyar

[Demongod86]

How are people coming to the conclusion that Saber is dead? She began to take a nap under a tree. Long rest. Longer than the usual nap. Great. And then there's Avalon which protects her from dying, and since aging means dying, I guess Saber is in suspended animation...there is nothing that leads us to believe that she is dead. If she went back to her time, people believed she'd die because Mortred-Saber would come and give her a stabbity stab. No such luck. Saber went to catch Zs under some trees, end of what Type-Moon is showing us.

Of course, it doesn't help that Shirou is a dense idiot and thinks she's completely gone when she's just in another part of the world napping under a tree waiting for him to scoop her up.

[Decel]

Originally Posted by diopter

3) The ending is ambiguous and we don't know what happened!

It doesn't hurt to use the big lump of tissue above your neck once in a while. Seriously, I'm trying really hard not to bash the haters, but it's difficult. I don't hate or love open-ended endings. It opens the door for interpretation, which is fine. I actually find it interesting that half the people I talk to say the ending means this this this and the other half says that that that. We got spoon-fed for a lot during the series of Fate Stay Night, so I'm not opposed to an episode where we the viewers draw our own conclusions based on our cognitive abilities and personal experiences.

I actually partly disagree with this, probably because of the masses of open-ended series out there.

It's nice to have one's own opinion about how this and that should happen, but when I watch a series, I want to see the author(s)'s point of view on the subject. In many instances the ending is so open it's rather like a cop-out on the author's role to deliver a story and just avoids that burden by giving it to the audience.

Nothing prevents the audience from rewriting an author's view about a story. It's essentially what doujins/fan-fictions do. However if an author leaves a hole or open ending, you start with a gap that adds to the ambiguity.

In FSN however the ending is rather conclusive. Of course I'd like to have a peek about what happens 5-10 years down the line but what was delivered was worth to be called an epilogue. As far as Saber's condition at the end, you have a rather detailed legend backing up what happens after if you discard the rather minor fact that the gender was switched. Besides, no matter which version of the legend you follow, you are essentially led to the same destination/conclusion.

Imo she died. You could see in Bedivere(sp?) reaction, and his last line was more of a farewell than anything.

Also, Imo the bittersweet ending goes a level further and mirrors Tsukihime: I don't believe Shiro will end up with either of the other female co-stars, the same way Shiki turned down Satsuki's feelings at the end. That was how strong his love for Saber was. Shiro and Rin's last discussion gave that impression; it felt more like a friendship dialogue than anything else.

[roan]

the game epilogue, from the pov of bedivere, was clear about it. avalon didn't travel back in time with her. she DIED. end of story.

[andiyar]

In regards to Avalon, and the end of Fate/stay night.

After the battle of Camlann there are three major possibilities as to what happens to Arthur. Two of them involve his death. Basically at Camlann, Arthur's forces face and defeat Mordred's forces, and Arthur defeats Mordred. However, Arthur loses as well as gains victory - Britain is shattered by the loss of so many knights (basically his entire army is destroyed) and Arthur himself is mortally wounded by Mordred.

Now, Arthur lies dying after the battle. There are three branches the legends now take - down one, Arthur is taken, grievously injured on the boat to Avalon, where he will be tended until his time comes again. Down another, Arthur dies, but his body is taken to Avalon, where he may yet rise, or where he is interred. And finally, Arthur still dies, and his body remains in mortal lands. In almost all versions, Excalibur is given back to the Lady of the Lake - almost always by Bedivere, rarely by Lancelot - the chosen knight casts it into the lake as Arthur lies dying.

Now, why is Arthur dying? In the legend, Arthur possessed a scabbard for Excalibur that meant that, no matter how much he was wounded in battle, he could never lose enough blood to imperil his life. This scabbard was stolen/reclaimed by Morgaine (for a variety of reasons, depending on the story) before Arthur's battle with ninja-edit Accolon. Thus, at the final battle at Camlann, Arthur didn't have his magical scabbard, so he was able to die.

On to Avalon. Avalon is... very, very complex. Often sited at Glastonbury Tor, it was often an island dedicated to nature and the faerie, which slowly retreated from the world of men into the mists. It is supposedly reachable by those who know how to travel there - but time and reality themselves are different in Avalon then in the real world, thus, Arthur could still be alive in Avalon today, slowly healing of his wounds.

In Fate/stay night, the legend of Avalon has been melded with that of Excalibur to create the Noble Phantasm Avalon - the sheathe which protects. It does so in the sense of Excalibur's sheath, but instead of physical protection (yes, yes, I know it heals, continue on!) it provides rather the protection of Avalon from the outside world - removed from reality and time, as it were. So it is kind of like a projection of the ideal of Avalon onto the real world, wrapped around the user. The distant world of Avalon has been made all that encompasses the wielder, shielding them from the real world.

Now, just a brief thought on Saber/Arthur. I come down on the side of 'she is dead.' Bedivere's reactions make this somewhat plain, when he hopes that she continues her dreaming, her own words when she says that she thinks this sleep will be a bit long are a touch of ironic humour at her situation. Perhaps she is then put into the boat and sent to Avalon, perhaps the faerie will be able to revive her there. But Arthur is definitely gone from this world, one way or another; either into the paths of death or the realms of the fay. Perhaps she is still dreaming, perhaps she is not. Either way, she is no longer here.

All is a distant utopia indeed.


-Andiyar

[rpgman1]

So this series leaves us with an epilogue, not a conclusive ending then? I saw Gargoyles and liked the idea of the island Avalon existing beyond the realms of space and time, then riding a boat where Avalon will send you to different locations around the world.

[cloudninja]

Originally Posted by roan

that's the history we know. that's not what happened here. she's dead, not sleeping.

avalon is the sheath. it doesn't transport the user to avalon, it breaks apart and surrounds the user.

In most of the legends, King Arthur is dead before being being sent to Avalon. Since they stop showing Saber after her eyes close there is nothing to say that she did'nt go there after death. It does'nt mean they just left her there under the tree because the show stops there. As the Once and Future King, Arthur is supposed to return again at some point in the future to lead Britain. So if you follow the legend, even death is not permanent.

Avalon is the utopia that the king enters after death. That's what Gilgamesh said to Saber after his defeat, which matches what the common legends say Avalon is. Shirou also referred to Avalon as the utopia that Saber saw in her dreams. The sheath is probably just a representation of it, allowing Saber and Shirou to use its power to help them fight. Just like a normal sheath is the resting place of a sword, the Avalon they saw in the form of a sheath probably represented King Arthur's utopia, her resting place after death. If it was only a sheath, why would Gilgamesh, Shirou, and Saber refer to Avalon as a utopia?

[MarcusG]

I gave it 1 out of 10 because it was painful.

[diopter]

Decel, I agree with pretty much what you said. Even though you disagreed with my former statement, it doesn't seem like much of a disagreement as much as a misunderstanding of what I said. In my opinion, FSN's ending was rather conclusive, but not a completely solid one. And we all know people with fairly imaginative sides (*points to Higurashi threads*), so anything that is not completely solidified result in an open-ended series, no matter how miniscule. I think it's great because it creates a better conversation then "I'm right, pwned."

Like I said, I agree that I think Saber died, but I also do not oppose those who thinks she's just sleeping in Avalon waiting for Shirou/Rin/Barney the Dinosaur to wake her up. I can see where they draw the conclusion from, and it can be as valid as the former reasoning for the conclusion. I just think it's silly for people to say this is the right ending, period, when it is obvious the ending can be construed with another interpretation.

Overall, I'd give FSN an 8. If the anime is going to combine 3 scenarios into 1, they better be able to touch all bases rather than just giving glimpses of each scenario's uniqueness. It makes it a sloppy anime. When the anime was on track in the Fate scenario, it was a trend for the forum-goers to give higher ratings on the threads for each episode (namely the earlier ones and ep 14). Fortunately, FSN gave a good ending and wrapped up the series well despite the many loopholes during the series. I don't "hate" the anime like some of the others for Studio DEEN to drop the ball, but rather disappointed because the show really did have a high potential and become a definitive "classic" for years to come.

[The Stig]

When the episode started with all the Death words floating around I thought of Evangelions last episode. I watched ep24 about 3 times so far, one time was the raw, second time the sub and skimmed various parts that if you add it up amounts to a third time. Initially I didn't this the was a satisfactory finale. After the third time through, I realized that its because its just too hard for me to isolate the episode. For this episode I gave a 9/10. The Gilgamesh fight could have been a bit better, something more like the Assasin fight. The Gilgamesh fight was just a bunch of kamehamehas being thrown around. Other than that, and the effects of the plot holes in earlier episodes, it was a pretty good episode. Still with all that, I am sad to see FSN end, but atleast it redeemed itself slightly. I also found myself a bit choked up during the episode which is usually a sign theyre doing things right.

Overall for the series, I am deeply sad to say I would only give it a 7-7.5. The second half of the series really didn't serve it well and if not for this forum, I'm sure many people would be scratching their head more because they wouldn't have benifited from the knowledge of people that played the game. If I had actually played the game and understood the parts that were left out of the anime, I would say my rating would be 8.0-9.0 range.

One last thing, whats your guy's favorite moment of the episode? I would say most would go with Saber admitting she loves Shirou or Shirou saying he'd never forget that he loved Saber. Personally I would go with the later, everything about it just felt so sincere.

[Hemisphere]

Originally Posted by stormy001_M1A2

Hmmm

The only True Magician I remembered are

1. Touko, Aoko's sister, master of puppet who build Shirou's susbstitute body in HF after his original body was destroyed in the last battle in HF route.

2. Aoko Aozaki, mentor of Shiki Nanaya Tohno in Tsukihime

3. Zeltrech, Headmaster of the Sorcery Guild in London and mentor of Tohsaka clan.

There is supposed to be another 2 True Magicians....or am I wrong? I thought Zouken Matou is not one of the True Magicians. He is powerful but not to the sublime level of True Magicians.

Hmmmm, perhaps a TYPEMOON expert can step in and clarify this?

Zouken isn't on the level of True Magicians. He's just some weird-ass vampire who uses worms to "ressurect" himself time after time.

The other two True Magicians are either dead or long gone. By that I mean, these are the magicians who can use the five magics.

Overall, I'll give the anime a 7. It's god, great on episode 14, but gets dull after that. The last two ending episodes were nice, but that's about it. Sadly, this series showed potential, but I guess it was never realized.

And I was so hoping on a kickass Lancer-Archer battle right from the get-go. ;_;