[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by zRyuu

Question: Is there any other interpretation than Shkanon that explains the reason why only Kanon or Shannon can become human and experience love?

Personally I don't see how it helps Jessica/Kanon. I mean it's not impossible, but it sounds like a long to make Jessica accept to develop a starting relationship with another girl.

[zRyuu]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

I know I'll be flammed and get neg - reputation but I hope with bittersweet ending he means. Beato will be finally put at rest. At Battler's hands.
It would be really sad because I think beatrice has grown on every fan but I still would find it the most beautiful ending there could be.

Sleep peacefully, my most beloved witch, Beatrice.

Shall be the last sentence.

But Beatrice is so popular I doubt R07 would kill her off for good...

The opening of Ep7 shows exactly this. Battler's expression at the beginning and end of the opening, Beatrice turning into gold butterflies and dissapearing, the gold butterfly leaving the island.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Personally, I think it makes for a much more interesting story if each player can control his or her own piece. It means there can be a meaningful conflict in choosing how the game plays out, gives us a clear way for Lambda to have controlled Beatrice in EP1-4 without being the Game Master, and maybe even shows us how the final game will be played. If the Game Master really does control everything, then all appearance of competition is false in the core arcs. I'd rather that not be false.

Of course, if Shannon is Beatrice, and Lambda's piece is controlling Beatrice... you know what you're implying...

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Renall

Of course, if Shannon is Beatrice, and Lambda's piece is controlling Beatrice... you know what you're implying...

That's one way to make it work. It'd mean that the question arcs not only have two separate culprits at work, but two separate meta-characters in control. I think EP6 Erika proves how much damage a non-detective meta-character can do. Things like the first twilight of EP2 seem like they might be a bit too overdone if Beatrice is just trying to help Battler find the answer.

[DaBackpack]

Question:

The condition for Battler's victory is to disprove that magic exists in each of the murder cases. In order to prove he understands Beato's game in EP6, he becomes the Game Master. This I understand.

His reward, as I understand it, is that Battler will be returned to a kakera where everyone survives (the Ushiromiyas reach the "happy end").

However,
in EP6 at the very end, he makes multiple references to him and Beato "being together forever."

So is it that in order for everyone to be happy on Rokkenjima, Battler will love Beatrice and be with her forever? So Beatrice must be a love interest of Battler's on the game board. So if Battler's words are to be believed, who could this be?

EDIT: Reading the end scroll of EP6, and there's something I don't understand. It says "Battler died on the First Twilight" and "Kanon died on the Second Twilight." Do you think this is to be believed? After all, it did say in EP4 that Ange died. Perhaps the endroll gives the "final information" from an objective voice?

But that would mean Battler died as soon as he exited the closed room, which would create more problems...

[Judoh]

Again this is the end roll. The same type of end roll that said Kinzo survived until the end in episode 2. We don't have to trust it it's not in red text. In fact if people are capable of faking their deaths as we've been shown we should never trust it.

[sacul097]

Originally Posted by zRyuu

Question: Is there any other interpretation than Shkanon that explains the reason why only Kanon or Shannon can become human and experience love?

The tests, remember? They had to choose to lose themselves, their love, or everyone else (I can't remember if this happened in more than one game but if it did...) If they chose themself and their love, that would mean the other couple would die.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Again this is the end roll. The same type of end roll that said Kinzo survived until the end in episode 2. We don't have to trust it it's not in red text. In fact if people are capable of faking their deaths as we've been shown we should never trust it.

Or... maybe... it's not that we shouldn't trust it but we should say that it's not indicating the real life and death status of the actual people.

That it may be indicating something else... 8)

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by DaBackpack

The condition for Battler's victory is to disprove that magic exists in each of the murder cases.

I believe Battler created that goal for himself. In arc 2 Beato tried to get him to name a culprit and he wouldn't, saying he only had to prove witches doesn't exist.

Originally Posted by DaBackpack

His reward, as I understand it, is that Battler will be returned to a kakera where everyone survives (the Ushiromiyas reach the "happy end").

We are truly told that Battler will be released once this is all over but we are never told that such a happy kakera is possible. Bern claims something like even in the best of case only a single person could come back when she talks to ange.

I wouldn't even be too surprised if "released" and "rest in peace" meant the same thing.

Still, I'd like to also believe in a mostly happy ending, but we do not have solid hints that such a thing is even possible.

As for being together forever, Battler said something about "taking her off the gameboard", so it doesn't imply that the gameboards will go on.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by DaBackpack

This, I believe, is the "true ending" of Higurashi.

Hmm... correct me if I'm wrong, but last time I read about it, I'm quite sure I read R07 didn't write Miotsukushi, but it was a project by Alchemist on its entirety.

[Pika_power]

Originally Posted by moichispa

I read about those theories,here (that link is on a animesuki user sig.) and I remember doing it before ep 6 release

In that case, I'm curious to know how that theory can hold itself only using EP5 truths.

Spoiler for EP5:

Firstly, At 24:00, only Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa existed outside the mansion

This can be shortened to At 24:00, Erika existed outside the mansion. A direct proclamation of Erika's existence. This may be able to refer to a corpse or even a ghost. Possibly. It's unlikely.

Erika was with Nanjo the whole time until 3:00 AM. Sounds like a pretty definite proclamation of existance, but sure, let's assume it's a corpse and/or a ghost.

It was impossible to reach the second floor of the guesthouse without passing through the lounge, and impossible to reach it at all without Erika, who was in the lounge, knowing about it! Corpses do not 'know' about anything. Ghost theory is all that remains.

This can be shortened to Erika was in the lounge. Again, assuming ghosts can 'exist', this does nothing.

As the detective, <Miss> Erika sealed all ENTRANCES. Can ghosts seal entrances? We conclude she must be a human.

Eva's seal was of the same type as <Miss> Erika's. That is because this method of sealing was one that <Miss> Erika and Eva conceived of together after DINNER. Interaction and influences of Eva, recorded in the red.

All of these prove Erika's existence and interference in the game. At BEST, one could devise a theory that Furudo Erika died in her sleep directly after 3:00 but before the bodies were discovered, and attempt to take it from there.

No EP6 spoilers please.

Originally Posted by Judoh

Spoiler for ep5:

In that trial there was a rule that humans were not permitted to use red truths unless they had tons of evidence supporting it, which was why Dlanor was able to counter Battler and boot him from the trial, but people like witches and Inquisitors like Dlanor had the authority to say anything in red that's true whether they had any evidence for it or not because of their status. In Erika's case she had her detective's perspective and Dlanor saying reds for her that allowed her to argue anything she wanted in the trial. When Battler learned the truth he gained the status of a witch and was able to say things in red all he liked with or without evidence backing it up. So rather than Battler's red about Natsuhi being false it was simply ignored because he was breaking the rules of the trial by saying it.

Spoiler for EP5:

Then when he was a sorcerer, why was he unable to say "This corpse is Ushiromiya Kinzo's corpse"? Dlanor somehow blocked him, which should be impossible.

Also, does Natsuhi's red text spoken while in the closet count as Red Truth?

[Judoh]

Spoiler for ep 5:

Nobody knows the reason Dlanor has the ability to seal the red truth she just can. Therefore it must be possible since she can do it.

And of course Natsuhi's red counts. Why wouldn't it? Again the red is still the absolute truth just in certain situations it was used in a way that it could be ignored by others. However that doesn't mean WE should ignore it too.

Also this is the wrong thread for speculations about how that certain theory can hold itself up.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

Or... maybe... it's not that we shouldn't trust it but we should say that it's not indicating the real life and death status of the actual people.

That it may be indicating something else... 8)

Exactly, the end rolls show the result of the "epitaph murder game".

[Winar]

Spoiler for Natsuhi red text:

I think this is an extra hint. The servants always knows more than the family members, especially to their "plays" in previous episodes (ep2 - evil_Kanon kill Kumasava and Nanjo, ep4 - Kinzo kill six peoples on first twilight). But we ignored this red, because culprit could use Genji's master key, no need to involve Shannon.

[ErenselTheJester]

Originally Posted by sacul097

The tests, remember? They had to choose to lose themselves, their love, or everyone else (I can't remember if this happened in more than one game but if it did...) If they chose themself and their love, that would mean the other couple would die.

That's the question he's asking. Why would the other couple fail when they can all be happy together? They answered that question by saying that furniture aren't completely human so they can't be with anyone else. I have an answer for it but I don't want to say it because one half of the answer is something I discovered while the other half is from someone else's idea and I don't know if its a widely accepted idea or something kept for himself.

[DaBackpack]

Originally Posted by Used Can

Hmm... correct me if I'm wrong, but last time I read about it, I'm quite sure I read R07 didn't write Miotsukushi, but it was a project by Alchemist on its entirety.

Well Miotsukushi-hen was created by Alchemist and not by Ryukishi. You got me there
The rumors on the internet led me to believe that it was the "true" ending, though, but I just realized that no reliable source declares it as such.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester

I have an answer for it but I don't want to say it because one half of the answer is something I discovered while the other half is from someone else's idea and I don't know if its a widely accepted idea or something kept for himself.

If your answer is something not widely accepted I believe it's a lot more welcomed then things that have been said over and over before. Any alternative to Shkanon theories will be likely well received by a vast number of people, including me.

If that theory somehow includes Genji's status as furniture as well in the explanation it'd be even better.

[chronotrig]

The problem with Shkanon is that it looks so ridiculous on the face of it that most people reject it when they first hear about it. Since the first version that comes to mind is probably something ridiculously impossible, people argue against the theory, and once you've started arguing against something, it's hard to admit you've been wrong. This is especially true if you've spent a great deal of time and effort into "disproving" or even insulting versions of the theory that are now obsolete. The reason we're playing this game is because we want to find the answers ourselves, not because we want someone else to tell us the answers, much less someone who we've been arguing against for a long time.

I know what it's like. I remember arguing against the explosion theory for the longest time. If I'm perfectly honest, I thought Jan-poo was a bit of an idiot for suggesting that alongside his volcano theory. Well, the volcano part is still up in the air, but I've been proven sadly and completely wrong on the explosion bit. Ryuukishi has now confirmed it, and the same evidence that Jan-poo showed me and that I rejected was mentioned specifically by Ryuukishi to be evidence that led to the answer. Jan-poo did manage to convince me, but it took a long time.

[Judoh]

Speaking of which. What do you think is closer to the heart of Beato's game? Shkanon or the explosion accident? I can't help, but think the explosion accident is the bigger of the two. It was hidden pretty cleverly in episode 6.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Speaking of which. What do you think is closer to the heart of Beato's game? Shkanon or the explosion accident? I can't help, but think the explosion accident is the bigger of the two. It was hidden pretty cleverly in episode 6.

Well, if we're talking about the "heart" that Beato figured out when she revived, that probably isn't the explosion. We're told that she understood the heart of the game and used it to create that final set of closed rooms. So far, I haven't heard many explanations for what that might be other than Shkanontrice, which by its very name, would obviously be Beato's heart if it was true.

I think the explosion was more of an added bonus at the end. Something small, since a lot of people already guessed it, but extremely significant to have it be proven true.