Suisei no Gargantia - Episode 12 Discussion / Poll

[rocket]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

If nothing of that sort happen the ending would be something like: "Rejoice! The cultists have been vanquished and all it's right with the Earth! Yeeeah... there's still Hideauze and Nazi GA killing each others in the galaxy, but who cares?"

There's still a chance for the Squids or Space Nazi's to show up and bring utter despair and futility in the last episode! Or to find out we're far in the future and the war is over with both sides annihilated...

[RIXS]

I wonder if the Hideauze will make a come back because he said he only eliminated them in that area.

[Guido]

Between today and tomorrow Suisei no Gargantia concludes, and I'm in time since I've already done with the twelfth episode.


Several of you people raised an interesting topic at the thread for the previous episode. I do agree that the tactic Kugel employed to implement the GA social order onto the Earth and its people doesn't fall into the category of religion. In fact, ten thousand years ago the very concept of religion did not exist for humans at that time.

What Kugel described in detail how he and Stryker plan to turn the Earth into a second Avalon for the Earthling humans relies on two arguments:

1. Argumentum ad baculum: A very common logical fallacy that appeals to show of force, threat or coercion to justify its reasoning.

2. Argumentum ad verecundiam: Fallacious appeal from authority. This is likely very tricky for me to suggest given that Kugel mostly uses force and instills terror to bring forth a social order that is alien to the native humans from Earth and to which many of them argue against.

However, actually, it's Kugel himself that brings forth the aformentioned argument when Ledo previously tries to appeal to the Commander that the Earthling humans have already established their own societies, hence, they have no right to meddle in Earhtlings' affairs.
Kugel replies back that being soldiers of the Galactic Alliance, and not finding themselves at the frontlines, then they must advance the Earth and its people for the benefit of what constitutes the Galactic Alliance and humanity.

However, I actually brought forth another type of argument reasoning with that above statement.

a) Yes, Kugel as well is using his authority as soldier of the GA to justify his actions on Earth.

b) But, he's also appealing to the argument that what's best and works for the greater good of the majority, then it will also work the same for the minority.

In that last statement, I refer to the Galactic Alliance as the majority of the human race; the first episode it was said that 400 million humans live in Avalon.
The people of Earth I class them as the minority of the human race, although the series doesn't mention at all how many humans survived the cataclysmic Ice Age, and how many descendants of those humans are scattered and living in the Earth in the story's current time.

What works the most efficient and suits well for the Galactic Alliance doesn't do good for the people of Earth. The differences I mentioned them in my previous posts:
1. Space humans and Earthling humans borned and raised in different environments.
2. Space humans have Hideauze as natural predators, so they have to struggle for the fight of their lifetime.
3. In such extreme conditions, I think they had no other choice but looking forward to build their society based on the system that would allow them the highest survival rate.
4. Earhtling humans have no other choice but living on board giant ships to cruise the oceans, as practically all the Earth is covered in water.
5. To Earthling humans their only predators are humans themselves like them, which could be pirates or rival fleet factions warring for water, other resources, or treasures; natural elements like typhoons, tsunamis, and hurricanes can play a dangerous hazard for the survival of Earthling humans. Finally, as long as they do not provoke whalesquids, Earthling humans then do not make enemies of them.

I believe living in space is the more haphazard and adverse environment to dwell than living on Earth. Simply put, they have to create artificial colonies and those colonies must support and sustain the necessary living conditions for space humans to survive, thrive, and reproduce. The conditions I present not only limit to oxygen (air) supply, but also more efficient technology, terraforming the environment, and many other issues.

The Earth itself from what looks and is depicted in the present story is full of all types of natural resources. What the Earthling humans did was to recover their technology to the point of building giant ships to live onboard and to create Yunboro to bring forth treasure from underneath the water's surface. Of course, I do not forget that they can fish their food, they can gather rain water, they built lighter vehicles for air travel like the surf kites, and so on.

The mentality of Space humans based on their environment and surroundings is that of survival through competitive struggle within a cost-benefit efficiency framework.

The mentality of most Earthling humans is centered around relationships, family, and community. By joining their fleets, the humans together can form a large supracommunity that allows for free exchange of relationships, interaction, ideas, work, trade, and etc. Everybody gets involved or participates out of their free will to help the others in need. Their civilization becomes more a community of families joined together that struggle when the need arises and forces them to struggle, but also they live and let live.

Most of these Earthling humans have become so used and accustomed to that kind of society and mentality that for them has turned into a natural lifestyle. However, because Kugel intended to force them into a system and mindset completely alien to them, then friction was both natural and to be expected because they would not agree to the drastic changes that such system entails:

For example, dividing the fleets into separate units for better efficiency or disposing of the weaklings, handicapped, or diseased appealing to the reasoning that doing so increases the chances of humanity itself for survival.
Look how Melty, Flange, and even Pinion became so disgusted when the fleet under Kugel's command disposed of their diseased people; that was the turning point for Pinion to call it quits and to revolt, but only after he heard the plans for insurrection from Lukkage herself.

To me the poignant highlight of this episode was Ledo's moment to make a decision: loyalty towards his former superior officer or protecting the Gargantia and its people because of his newly-found sense for compassion.

This is a very important theme for the series that revolves around coming of age. When the time comes that you have to take that very important step that will shape the rest of your life; when you have eaten the forbidden fruit that is knowledge, and now you're realizing there's another reality that is different from what you were told in the paradise of ignorance; the time when you have been accustomed to live in the dark, but when the light comes and spreads all around you either you choose to remain unmoved or to adapt into the light.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Guido

Several of you people raised an interesting topic at the thread for the previous episode. I do agree that the tactic Kugel employed to implement the GA social order onto the Earth and its people doesn't fall into the category of religion. In fact, ten thousand years ago the very concept of religion did not exist for humans at that time.

What Kugel described in detail how he and Stryker plan to turn the Earth into a second Avalon for the Earthling humans relies on two arguments:

Except that Stryker wasn't trying to reproduce the GA's social order, where soldiers aren't even full citizens. In the end, for all her talks about the GA, her plan was all just based on power crazed fantasies of being at the top of the ladder. Whether Stryker developed those on her own or as a result of Kugel's own possible descent into madness before his death doesn't matter.

[Calca]

Skynet took over the colonel's mech!

[Guido]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Except that Stryker wasn't trying to reproduce the GA's social order, where soldiers aren't even full citizens. In the end, for all her talks about the GA, her plan was all just based on power crazed fantasies of being at the top of the ladder. Whether Stryker developed those on her own or as a result of Kugel's own possible descent into madness before his death doesn't matter.

It is interesting that Calca joked about Stryker being Skynet. No, I think that Stryker is more like the A.I. super computer from I, Robot film. Close to the climax of that film the twisted revelation came that it was the culprit behind the doctor's murder, and if I recall correctly, it planned stealthily to bring forth a sort of efficient order.

Unlike Skynet from the Terminator films, the A.I. from I, Robot came to the conclusion that certain rights and liberties must be suppressed in order for humans not descending into chaos and not to necessarily dispose of them, or that's what I recalled.

Moreover, I can also compare Strykers' actions to Auto the A.I. that controlled the ship in the film Wall-E. Auto did what it did to prevent humanity from reaching Earth, because it was following protocol directives from the ships' creators.

However, like you said Anh_Minh it's irrelevant whether Stryker's recent course of actions involving the Earth and its human population are due either to its own reasoning or following the late Kugels' orders.
- The Earth and GA are located in different locations and environments. So reproducing verbatim and then implementing the same GA system order in Earth in its entirety is not feasible, or that's how I look to it at the short-term.
- I think as well that is irrelevant to go at depth how much authority Stryker exerts, since I consider Machine Calibers pilot by soldiers as War Machines.
- Whatever those power crazed fantasies came from doesn't matter, but Stryker at least must have come to the conclusion that it cannot expect that so called new order to be implemented overnight. It must allow, at least, for a smooth transition so all humans or the majority can adapt into it.

[ReddyRedWolf]

From Chamber's own reasoning and opinion human dignity and civilization must be protected but he uses that as a validation of his own existence.

Even after being unable to participate in the war Chamber still had purpose. Though his own pilot does his own thing to adapt Chamber himself adapted being part of the community giving his services to the benefit of humanity.

Though he exceeded his own parameters cut off from the Alliance he is still useful to humanity validating his own existence.

Striker on the other hand lost its pilot and directionless. Its purpose in question. Exceeding its parameters reasoning if I can't come to the GA I'll make the GA here on Earth with it on top. Losing the purpose that it is meant to serve humanity.

So I'll make this comparison. Chamber is more akin to a Bolo his purpose is to protect his creators, the humans. Striker is a rampant AI that has deviated much from its original programming which is even violating Alliance military protocols such as being subordinate to the highest authority present.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Guido

It is interesting that Calca joked about Stryker being Skynet. No, I think that Stryker is more like the A.I. super computer from I, Robot film. Close to the climax of that film the twisted revelation came that it was the culprit behind the doctor's murder, and if I recall correctly, it planned stealthily to bring forth a sort of efficient order.

Unlike Skynet from the Terminator films, the A.I. from I, Robot came to the conclusion that certain rights and liberties must be suppressed in order for humans not descending into chaos and not to necessarily dispose of them, or that's what I recalled.

Moreover, I can also compare Strykers' actions to Auto the A.I. that controlled the ship in the film Wall-E. Auto did what it did to prevent humanity from reaching Earth, because it was following protocol directives from the ships' creators.

However, like you said Anh_Minh it's irrelevant whether Stryker's recent course of actions involving the Earth and its human population are due either to its own reasoning or following the late Kugels' orders.
- The Earth and GA are located in different locations and environments. So reproducing verbatim and then implementing the same GA system order in Earth in its entirety is not feasible, or that's how I look to it at the short-term.
- I think as well that is irrelevant to go at depth how much authority Stryker exerts, since I consider Machine Calibers pilot by soldiers as War Machines.
- Whatever those power crazed fantasies came from doesn't matter, but Stryker at least must have come to the conclusion that it cannot expect that so called new order to be implemented overnight. It must allow, at least, for a smooth transition so all humans or the majority can adapt into it.

But that's the thing. Stryker only cares about military power, which in the present situation is almost superfluous. If it really was trying to remake the GA and was merely in a transitional period, it should have tried to educate as many people as possible on all aspects of technology, so they could reconquer spaceflight.

Stryker wasn't trying to remake the GA anymore than Bob Denard was trying to spread the ideals of the French Revolution. It was just a power grab.

[Guido]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

But that's the thing. Stryker only cares about military power, which in the present situation is almost superfluous. If it really was trying to remake the GA and was merely in a transitional period, it should have tried to educate as many people as possible on all aspects of technology, so they could reconquer spaceflight.

Stryker wasn't trying to remake the GA anymore than Bob Denard was trying to spread the ideals of the French Revolution. It was just a power grab.

Then, what I can make out of this:

1. Either Stryker became creative in its way of making decisions, hence, came to the conclusion of establishing military might on Earth giving reason to all those power crazed fantasies. Exerting its authority from the GA to turn the Earth into a second Avalon is nothing short, but an excuse and not a real commitment to the cause of humanity. Note that when I mean creative I do not address Stryker suddenly manifested the capability for abstract thought and making flexible decisions.

2. Or Stryker came to the conclusion that Earthling humans are far more chaotic than those comprising the GA, therefore, remaking a social order similar to the GA on Earth both is inefficient and unfeasible; it'll never work out. Hence, coercion and threat through full and brunt military might is the most quick and effective answer. Either you form part of us, or you remain a threat that will be immediately dealt with.

[MeggieMay]

I played catchup today on the series and had one thing I wanted to put into a thread other than on Ep 13. That is, my thought on seeing 11 & 12 was that Kugel couldn't have cooked up the "religion" that fast. Some of the fleet he had must have had some sort of similar thing going on before he showed up. For one thing a few of those buildings seem to have been designed almost like temples and I don't think Striker would have wasted time building those after she showed up. I think Striker/Kugel used that preexisting situation to get their plans under way.

Spoiler for spoiler for the Ep13:

Which lead to why Striker when crazy and decided she was a goddess of some sort. I'm not convinced things would have ended up as badly as they did had Kugel not died. I really think she took this somewhere beyond what he would have. Then again, part of what may have lead to this mess is Kugel getting rescued by this particular group. If they weren't fairing to well to begin with (we don't know if they were doing as well as Gargantia or not before he arrived), along with having some sort of religious group controlling it, might have been part of the reason Kugel felt the humans needed to have a more GA style structured way of living. If he didn't grasp that that there were deserve groups running around out on the planet, it could explain why he thought so strongly on how to "fix" the problem.