Fate/Zero - Generic Discussion Thread

[Shiroth]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

I hope there are plenty of tracks though. I didn't like how we had the same music from the beginning of the anime series in the end.

Even though there was a soundtrack and a half full of material, i found the music placement in the F/SN TV series to be pretty decent, especially during the key scenes. It was certainly one of the best parts of the adaptation by far. Same can be said for the UBW film as well.

[applejuice]

I'm reading things that people are very anticipating to see newer appearance of Saber.

Problem is... (*cough)....... You will have to call 'fuck you urobuchi' like million times.

[RRW]

just curious how gen writing style compare to nasu

[Reckoner]

I personally don't like Kenji Kawaii that much. UBW had 1 good song, and that was it. Just added to the shit fest that was DEEN's slide show of a movie.

[applejuice]

Originally Posted by rrw

just curious how gen writing style compare to nasu

It's way, WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better. Although he sometimes go Nasu during gun-description (he is gun-taku...), you cannot compare his writing with other generic/shitty LN/VN writers.

First, writing style itself is different. Nasu makes infinite lines on single description, (like NisioisiN does) when Urobuchi is much more concise and calculated with details. Second, Urobuchi is, really, REALLY good at complex plot. Nasu failed to that and created millions of plothole, which is known as 'NASU-HOLE'. Urobuchi filled most of those holes during the writing of Fate/Zero and made even more complexed and stunningly good revelations.

Urobuchi's strength is not just simple ideas and descriptions on goer or temporary shock-and-awe effect. It's about his plot that 'naturally' creates an environment that needs despair and shock.

[Haak]

To be honest I'd have to agree. Whilst I quickly got used to Nasu's style, Urobuchi's is simply better. He puts in a lot more depth to each plot element. For example, the reason why none the innocents notice what the hell is going in in their town when they really should is actually explained very early on. There are still times when I'd just ask Nasu to get on with it, but I never got that once with the first novel or with Saya no Uta.

[hoarfrost]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I personally don't like Kenji Kawaii that much. UBW had 1 good song, and that was it. Just added to the shit fest that was DEEN's slide show of a movie.

I though the tv soundtrack was pretty good itself, though the UBW soundtrack was pretty weak I agree.

And while I wouldn't totally trash Nasu (He often gets blamed for plot-holes and retconning, but whenever a writer creates expansive universes that spans multiple titles, I tend to believe that some amount of lapse in logic is inevitable), Gen is on a whole other level than LN/VN writers, even among the ones typically considered to have actual literary talent.

[Haak]

I think Kenji Kawai makes good soundtracks. I liked the FSN soundtrack and Serei no Moribito especially.

[hoarfrost]

I don't think we have to worry in the sound department. Type-Moon adaptations across three different studios with varying budgets have for some reason or another all had great composers, even when it's just about the only redeemable quality...

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Haak

To be honest I'd have to agree. Whilst I quickly got used to Nasu's style, Urobuchi's is simply better. He puts in a lot more depth to each plot element. For example, the reason why none the innocents notice what the hell is going in in their town when they really should is actually explained very early on. There are still times when I'd just ask Nasu to get on with it, but I never got that once with the first novel or with Saya no Uta.

I find it hard to compare since they are really two different style writers. Nasu will re-define words so that he can express what he wants to get across and his plot holes aren't normal plot holes since you can find some round about way to fill them. And Urobuchi... I haven't read anything by him but going on Madoka and Phantom, I have to say he can weave an excellent and compelling story together.

Either way, they are both excellent writers.

Is this going to air yet!?Agh.

[applejuice]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

I find it hard to compare since they are really two different style writers. Nasu will re-define words so that he can express what he wants to get across and his plot holes aren't normal plot holes since you can find some round about way to fill them. And Urobuchi... I haven't read anything by him but going on Madoka and Phantom, I have to say he can weave an excellent and compelling story together.

Either way, they are both excellent writers.

Is this going to air yet!?Agh.

I will never say Nasu is excellent writer... ^_^;; There are simply too much plot screw ups and critical nasu-hole to call him that name. Only thing he is really good at is creating very appealing 'situations' and 'concept', but that's pretty much only thing I can say good about Nasu.

Making things 'cool' never correlates with being 'quality' writer.

[Vicious108]

Please list some of these alleged plot holes there are to be found in FSN then. If they're as abundant as you claim, it shouldn't be very hard.

[DragoZERO]

To the game thread we go!

[applejuice]

Spoiler for Don't attack me. I'm doing what is asked:

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

Please list some of these alleged plot holes there are to be found in FSN then. If they're as abundant as you claim, it shouldn't be very hard.

... if you want, I will pleasantly do...>_>... I will state one the biggest ones;

- Rider says; "1000 Human cannot win against spirits (魔), in order to defeat us, they need 'hero'. However, human can defeat heros"
: This is one of the crucial element that balances the power of entire nasu-verse, but known as one of the biggest nasu-hole, due to the fact their 'TOO MUCH EXCEPTIONS'. There are actually way around to fill this hole... somehow, but we always see nasu going 'Normally this shouldn't happen, but this guy is exceptionally ... etc. etc...

*list of exceptions:
Emiya Shiro, Toono Shiki, Nanaya Shiki: 'becos tey are protagonist, they hav special, exceptional power that can fight spirits!'
Bazett Fraga Mcremitz
Siel, Totomine Kirei

*list of exceptions that is 'SAID' to be breaking the concept:
Sasaki Kojiro: ...is NOT a spirit.
Ryougi Shiki
Kuzuki Soichiro
Aozaki Aoko, Aozaki Touko

basically anyone who is major character but human can fight spirits.


- Status problem: Berserker's status is all A except luck, so it was known that he was always 'playing' with Saber most of the time. But at the end of fate route, he says he wasn't in berserk mode all the time, which is known to lower the status to about all B... (...) It's very ambiguous if Berserker was strong enough to play saber with this status.
- Assassin's agility = A, Saber's agility = C, but nasu says SABER IS FASTER THAN ASSESIN. Rider, who is also agility A, was able to avoid every attack from Assassin by SPEED ALONE.


-Gilgamesh: was known to have 'body', obtained from 4th HGW. However, when he was attacked by Excalibur, he 'evaporates' instead of remaining his body. This seems to be created by Nasu who wanted some 'dramatic effect', but the problem is its breaks the entire logics of him having real figure.

many many more...

tl;dr.

[LostHanyou]

Gen is a better writer. However Nasu's writing in fate/stay night is for a visual novel while Gen wrote for a light novel which is completely different and demands a more professional style in comparison. I don't like comparing the two.

@applejuice, the first one is taking a character statement as fact which is flawed in itself in any fiction unless it is credible. Half those you listed have never killed a servant. The stat sheet is not a part of the plot and Nasu himself stated that agility takes into account different things such as max speed, acceleration, and maneuverability. Anyway the stat sheet is unreliable, yes. Third is incredibly minor but one could easily make the argument that Gilgamesh is still a servant and his spirit is taken in by the Holy Grail when he is killed as has been constantly shown.

[DragoZERO]

I'm glad I gave a link to the game thread.

Originally Posted by LostHanyou

Gen is a better writer. However Nasu's writing in fate/stay night is for a visual novel while Gen wrote for a light novel which is completely different and demands a more professional style in comparison. I don't like comparing the two.

Ohhh, that is a good point. I can't imagine how hard it must be to write a VN.

Well, one thing is for sure... this is going to be awesome. Is it airing yet?

[Haak]

I just want to make one point: I think Gen and Nasu have their strengths and weaknesses. Gen can create great plots that make you think but whilst he does create good interesting characters, none of them ever stick with me and Gen has an unfortunate habit of pulling some Contrived Stupidity with his characters. On the other hand Nasu can make absolutely great characters but whilst he can make great plots, there times when they're lacking in depth.

As for writing style I just want to point out that I don't know japanese and I'm only basing my opinion on translated material. I don't really know how much that's supposed to affect things.

[RRW]

i probably need to change my question.

in comparison, which one is better. KnK or Fate/Zero? (so we make even ground this one)

[applejuice]

^ Fate/Zero of course. ^_^

no nasu-style infinite word-count writing + no concept milking + complex and clever plot + much more depth and despair + sexy rider is sexy = winner

[RRW]

Originally Posted by applejuice

^ Fate/Zero of course. ^_^

no nasu-style infinite word-count writing + no concept milking + complex and clever plot + much more depth and despair + sexy rider is sexy = winner

neverthought that you are a female (even thought it bit predictable)