[Manga] Naruto Chapter 628 Discussion Thread (btw, no Naruto next week)

[Cookie-Monster]

I hated the danzou fight. I often like to let the manga pace ahead by about 6 months before reading them all in a bunch. So at times I tend to rush-read if I feel like more interesting stuff is coming up, so at times its difficult to gauge the pacing of the manga. But for me it seemed like the whole danzou plotline was pulled out of thin air. His skills/abilities seemed kinda stupid to be honest.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Danzou is ridiculously powerful and the way he gained power is completely irrelevant. It's not possible to easily kill him because he's invincible for at least 10 minutes (and not 10 times, Sasuke "killed" him way more than 9 times) regardless of how powerful you are. Naruto would have exactly the same problem as Sasuke : Keep the offensive for 10 minute while avoiding or tanking his wind attacks (which are among the very few strong enough to pierce Susanoo), dodging all physical contact because Danzou could seal your body with a mere touch whereas he could respawn everywhere he wanted in the vicinity.

You are vastly overestimating Danzou. The entire battle was more or less Sasuke holding Danzou and repeatedly stabbing him. There was nothing that impressive (Sasuke didn't even have a full Susano'o at that point, so any "piercing" is almost irrelevant, and was honestly almost ignored due to the pace of the fight), and the only reason he was able to even last a minute was due to his stolen powers.

Would Naruto (pre-Kyuubi transformation) have a hard time? Maybe a little. In the end, a battle with Danzou is simply a war of attrition, and Naruto is the singular most powerful (in terms of simple power) character in the series. Even Danzou's Seal is almost irrelevant since, as Sasuke confirmed, all you need to do is overpower the seal, and since Naruto is pure power that would have been ridiculously easy. And that's not even adding any Toad Summons or Sage Mode into the equation. The battle would have still been 10 minutes. but in the end Danzou would have still run out of juice, and Naruto would have won.

And yes, Shisui's eye would have let Danzou defeat either opponent, if not almost all opponents.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Hunter

This is not about my opinion that Sasuke is a morron, this is about the fact that Sasuke also received helps during his fights (there are very few combats in this entire manga fully 1 vs. 1 without any outside help), the fact that while Sasuke isn't as demonstrative in his feeling as Naruto he is however very passionate and even a bit fanatical in his emotion (Hell the Uchiha literally have enhanced emotion), the fact that he was also very ignorant of the world he lived in until recently and the fact he's done many things that most sane people wouldn't call smart. He might not be as dumb as Naruto but then again who is?

Well we all know these "facts", but it doesn't change the overall picture. And of course it's realitve to Naruto, not in absolute terms. Sasuke is a smart guy who had a plan and acted according to that, he didn't make the Taka team to have friends, he recruited them as "tools", and then when he thought he doesn't need them any more he left them to die. He fought alone Orochimaru, Deidara and Itachi. Of course when the revelation about Itachi drove him crazy he lost his usually smart way of fighting, so he needed the help of his team against A and B. But despite that he didn't ask them to help. But it seems that Kishimoto wants Sasuke to have a charisma or something like that so that his team likes him despite all the shit he did to them. Naruto is the opposite, the reason he was kept away from the war was that they knew he would risk his life for anyone of those 80,000 soldiers (we see that in the current chapter). Sasuke after he met with Itachi began to use his mind again, and he was seeking a rational explanation about clans and villages. I agree that he is driven by emotions, who isn't deep down, but not as much as Naruto. He asks questions, Naruto is more of a "believe it!" guy who doesn't think about things if he is not forced to. We see in his conversation with Tobito that he thinks and speaks mainly about emotions and much less about rational reasoning. Sasuke needs to understand things while for Naruto it's enough to feel things.

In the beginning of the manga they were meant to be opposites, and i think the basic idea won't ever change even if both have changed a lot.

Originally Posted by james0246

And yes, Shisui's eye would have let Danzou defeat either opponent, if not almost all opponents.

Assuming that Shisui's eye was not on it's 10 years cooldown Danzou was a complete idiot to not use it on either Sasuke or Tobi. He could have implanted an order to serve him, and with that he could have become one of the final villains. It was a great opportunity for him to gain control of akatsuki and also dispose of Sasuke and karin who would become witnesses of that.

[james0246]

^Danzou's storyline was a missed opportunity on almost every level. He was potentially a very interesting character (he's still interesting, just really really stupid), that never amounted to anything beyond a plot point for Sasuke's storyline.

[Destined_Fate]

Danzo... Oh right, yeah! I remember him!

I still know almost nothing about him despite how long he was around or the motivations for some of the... Questionable actions he took. The way he was offed by Sasuke also did seem like he was just there to serve as a plot point for his story and that was it. Doesn't help that Danzo didn't really put up much of a fight in my opinion due to how one sided it was.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by james0246

You are vastly overestimating Danzou. The entire battle was more or less Sasuke holding Danzou and repeatedly stabbing him. There was nothing that impressive (Sasuke didn't even have a full Susano'o at that point, so any "piercing" is almost irrelevant, and was honestly almost ignored due to the pace of the fight), and the only reason he was able to even last a minute was due to his stolen powers.

I don't know why you hold on this "stolen powers" bits, it's ridiculous, so did Madara, Obito, Kabuto, Kakashi, Orochimaru, Naruto and Sasuke. The fact that it wasn't originally his is meaningless, he had them and that's the only thing that matter. Saying that the entire battle was Sasuke stabbing him over and over is the same as saying that entire battles are about attacks bouncing back on Susanoo or striking the wrong clones, of course it is, it's how the jutsu works.
Calling stage two irrelevant because it wasn't full is also laughable, do you know how many characters actually managed to pierce this level of Susanoo? The Raikage barely broke through stage 1, the cumulated attack from Gaara, Temari, Kankuro and Darui didn't scratch it. Madara's stage 2 Susanoo held against an onslaught of jutsu from the 5 Kage with little damage when there was any. The fact that Danzou had jutsu powerful enough to do that is a testament of his strenght.
Toad Summons or Sage Mode make no difference offensively speaking, they'd be useful as backup when Naruto's light-bulb more runs out after 5 minutes which would make a big difference pre-Kyubi transformation because back then Naruto couldn't stay in Sage mode that long unless he had prepared clones beforehand and a base mode Naruto wouldn't last very long.
Danzou was very strong, among the current Kage maybe Oonoki had a chance against him and that's a big maybe. Now of course he was not as powerful as Madara, Rinnegan Obito, Kabuto and his Edo army or Pain but he's right after them on the power ladder and that's definitively not a "not that strong" character.

And yes, Shisui's eye would have let Danzou defeat either opponent, if not almost all opponents.

Which was part of his power and because of his Hashirama DNA something that he could use semi-regularly.

Now of course Naruto is become a Kage army by himself and the question would rather be whether one Naruto clone on its own could defeat Danzou but that's because we're almost at the finish Line and the power levels are turning up to eleven.

[james0246]

^I emphasized the stolen powers because without them the fight would have literally been over in less than a minute. That being said, I was not disparaging him for using stolen powers (though this is one of the most egregious examples). As you say, lots kind characters steal powers.

[Kowai]

Sasuke only killed danzo because he had Karin to heal him and tobi to intimidate danzo
And of course plot protection...

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by james0246

^I emphasized the stolen powers because without them the fight would have literally been over in less than a minute.

you can say that about most special powers though. i also think danzou deserved more credit. his elemental moves and sealing powers have to be top of the line since he got to be powerful and leader of root anbu prior to getting all those sharingans. i would certainly say he was 2nd most powerful kage at the summit, and wouldn't argue much if someone put him on the same level as oonoki, but i wouldn't personally

That being said, I was not disparaging him for using stolen powers (though this is one of the most egregious examples). As you say, lots kind characters steal powers.

yea it's always something. as was stated in this discussion somewhere, it's rare for a fight to be completely clean 1 on 1 with a decisive victor. there's almost always some kind of detractor or foreign aid to each side or at least one side of the fight. as black zetsu put it, every thing a ninja uses is just tools and all that matters is the skill of the ninja who uses them

[Sasukemaru]

James0246 i don't know why you consider Danzo weak...I think maybe you just don't appreciate his jutsu? Regardless, he would pose the same problems for naruto that he did for sasuke.

I never said naruto COULDN'T fight the 5 kage, I said he would be dominated much the same way sasuke was. He would be able to fight on par or slightly above one, but once two or three kage got involved the fight would end quickly much like it did for sasuke. Naruto's unrivaled stamina may help him last a couple minutes longer, but the result would be the same.

Nothing current Naruto has done puts him far above kage level. When fighting opponents stronger then your standard kage he gets overwhelmed fairly quickly. Nagato, Obito...I won't mention Madara since that's hardly fair.

Point being, Naruto seems to be on the level of your average kage, maybe slightly higher. Sasuke with his ms was slightly below the average kage level imo...Now that he has ems, i think him and naruto are more or less equals.

We can say, but what if naruto gets the other half of kurama's chakra, or what if this or that...but as of today, they are on the same level imo.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by james0246

^I emphasized the stolen powers because without them the fight would have literally been over in less than a minute. That being said, I was not disparaging him for using stolen powers (though this is one of the most egregious examples). As you say, lots kind characters steal powers.

I'm trying to start an argument and you don't even have the common decency to take the bait you wicked pink-haired imp!

[b1gdawg]

I feel like a newb saying that Naruto didn't fight all 6 paths now -_-

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Sasukemaru

James0246 i don't know why you consider Danzo weak...I think maybe you just don't appreciate his jutsu? Regardless, he would pose the same problems for naruto that he did for sasuke.

I don't disagree that he would pose the same problem for Naruto or arguably anyone else, rather I am emphasizing that the sole reason he would be a problem was Izanagi, and not Danzou's regular jutsus (I am not disputing Danzou's decision to utilize Izanagi in this fashion; it is a good idea and it would work against weaker or equal level opponents). No matter who Danzou fought, he would still get his 10 minutes of not being able to die. Tobi, Madara, Nagato, Hashirama, Minato, et cetera, et cetera, all would have to fight for 10 minutes (unless there is some way to seal Danzou). Danzou was essentially immortal for 10 minutes. Sadly, Danzou was not powerful enough to capitalize on that 10 minutes of immortality and potential upper echelon opponents can keep fighting far longer than his time limit.

Originally Posted by Sasukemaru

Nothing current Naruto has done puts him far above kage level. When fighting opponents stronger then your standard kage he gets overwhelmed fairly quickly. Nagato, Obito...I won't mention Madara since that's hardly fair.

Again, his clones can now defeat legendary Kages with limited help, and he can fight against multiple Kage level opponents at the same time (alongside Kirabi). All of that is significantly more than anything Sasuke did during his assault (albeit the end result is still the same).

And now Sasuke has the EMS and Naruto will potentially get the full Kyuubi, so there powers will be increased even more.

Originally Posted by Hunter

I'm trying to start an argument and you don't even have the common decency to take the bait you wicked pink-haired imp!

I like my last sentence, "lots kind characters steal powers." Just goes to show that using swipe technology is somewhat counterproductive to internet discussions .

[Sasukemaru]

The only one of the edo kage I remember naruto fighting was the 3rd Raikage, and he had an entire division of the ninja alliance as support...and he what? Managed to wound him? That was it I think. And it being a clone doesn't impress me much, shadow clones just divides your chakra...and seeing how his chakra is more or less kurama's now, his chakra is already 100x the next guys.

Im just not as impressed by naruto as some seem to be. The only thing he has going for him is the 9 tails huge chakra. His tactics in battle still seems to be very amateur, he has 10 variants of the same jutsu. His experience seems very sub par compared to upper echelon fighters. If it wasn't for the 9 tails he would be ninja fodder. Don't get me wrong, having enough chakra to make a million clones, power the sun, and w.e else is all good...and it obviously would make anyone instantly powerful. But when you have other ninja that supremely outclass you in every other category, it kinda becomes null and void.

[Midnight Commander]

Originally Posted by Hunter

I'm trying to start an argument and you don't even have the common decency to take the bait you wicked pink-haired imp!

Don't feel that bad, noone bothered to take Kowai's bait either.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by james0246

I don't disagree that he would pose the same problem for Naruto or arguably anyone else, rather I am emphasizing that the sole reason he would be a problem was Izanagi, and not Danzou's regular jutsus

I still dont understand the point of removing part of a character's abilities to make a point. take away naruto's "stolen" kyuubi chakra and he's way weaker as well.

there's another way to think about danzo's power level. deidara was lesser to average kage level, i think we'd agree. and he pushed sasuke to his limit pre-MS. Danzo pushed sasuke to his limit with MS (at the time). so danzo would fall under the above average kage level by that logic since that was a major upgrade for sasuke

[james0246]

^If you want to look at it that way, then fine. Naruto would be killed without the kyuubi, Sasuke would be dead without the Sharingan, etc. I have no problem with that logic. The individual characters are nothing without there aces. I emphasized Danzou because I thought he did a fairly bad job with his ace, unlike other characters. He did not utilize the Izanagi arm efficiently, resulting in his death.

Honestly, he was the weakest of the Kages for me. A's speed would allow him to constantly kill Danzou, Oonoki could constantly crush Danzou, Terumi could constantly melt or poison Danzou, and Gaara could constantly crush Danzou. Hell, even Tsunade could probably simply outlast him. Danzou, to me, simply did not have the skills to use Izanagi efficiently.

[Typeblue]

Originally Posted by james0246

^If you want to look at it that way, then fine. Naruto would be killed without the kyuubi, Sasuke would be dead without the Sharingan, etc.

I beg to differ. Without the Kyuubi and Sharigan, Sasuke and Naruto could have found another way to gain power, look at Lee/Guy. Kakashi was strong before he received his Sharigan. I believe, and we would never know, that the Sharigan made him weaker. Without it, he would probably (speculation) have found a better way (more in line with his klan) to gain power; maybe even learn some of the 4th's Jutsus.

[b1gdawg]

Originally Posted by Typeblue

I beg to differ. Without the Kyuubi and Sharigan, Sasuke and Naruto could have found another way to gain power, look at Lee/Guy. Kakashi was strong before he received his Sharigan. I believe, and we would never know, that the Sharigan made him weaker. Without it, he would probably (speculation) have found a better way (more in line with his klan) to gain power; maybe even learn some of the 4th's Jutsus.

Sasuke was very dependent on Itachi's Susanoo and Amaterasu ever since he obtained it though. I'm confident he wouldn't have defeated Danzo without it, and he no doubt would have been killed at the Kage summit without it.


What u said about Kakashi is interesting. You usually assume children surpass their parents.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by james0246

Honestly, he was the weakest of the Kages for me. A's speed would allow him to constantly kill Danzou, Oonoki could constantly crush Danzou, Terumi could constantly melt or poison Danzou, and Gaara could constantly crush Danzou. Hell, even Tsunade could probably simply outlast him. Danzou, to me, simply did not have the skills to use Izanagi efficiently.

I think you don't realize how easy it'd be for Danzou to win against them. Terumi is all offense, just getting near her spells death for nearly everybody but that's it, she literally has nothing to stop Danzou from killing her. The guy could simply walk into her death mist/lava/acid/etc. die, re-spawn without a care and use any of his long or close range attack to kill her and there is nothing she could do about it. Same thing with Tsunade except she has better healing but considerably less offensive ability, Danzou could seal her body every times she'd try to punch him and finish her off with any of his various Fuuton jutsu. A is probably the worst off of all of them in this particular match up, all he has is physical ability against someone who don't care about being hit and whose offensive jutsu are elementary superior to Raiton. All Danzou has to do is take a hit to touch A, seal his body and cut him down with a Fuuton.
Gaara would have a better chance because he has very good defensive jutsu and long range jutsu but he has the same problem than the other : killing Danzou only allow him to reposition himself advantageously to strike you in the back and Gaara's sand armor isn't up to par with Susanoo, a few direct hit from Danzou Fuuton and he's down. He has a decent shot a winning this though, Shisui's eye notwithstanding of course. Oonoki I think has the best chance to take Danzou because his fighting style is the best suited to simply avoid anything Danzou can throw at him and easily keep the pressure from afar with particle beams and rock clones.

I think you dramatically underestimate Danzou because his fighting style was based around taking hits and "dying" repeatedly but Sasuke'd have died within seconds as well and many times afterward if not for turtling up inside Susanoo for 10 minutes. Danzou simply had no reason whatsoever to avoid an attack whereas taking one can gave him the advantage both tactically and mentally. It's not like he was slow, when his Sharingarm was spent he had no trouble dodging Sasuke charging at him with a Chidori.
You also fail to realize the effect that such a jutsu would have on most people, Sasuke guessed correctly how it worked but it was to showcase his battle smart and keen observation sense. With no understanding of how Izanagi works the only thing you can do is watch in despair powerless to do anything to an invincible opponent wondering what's going, whether you're under Genjutsu or some other trick.

Originally Posted by b1gdawg

Sasuke was very dependent on Itachi's Susanoo and Amaterasu ever since he obtained it though.

They're not Itachi's.

What u said about Kakashi is interesting. You usually assume children surpass their parents.

I don't, spoiled brats all of them!