Fate/Zero - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[klare]

a filler and yet such high quality visually

so now we know Rin was a cheerful, energetic and daring person when she was young, the outcome of this war changed her

[ookamigirl]

Tohsaka & her childhood days were pretty interesting to watch.
Going to Fuyuki city alone was not a good idea.
Guess kids are like that... curiosity's not always a good thing.
Rin sure was impressive with her magic, even as a kid.

[Xakanis]

Originally Posted by Jaden

Well, it is a little strange that Caster leaves his master so vulnerable. Rin could've accidentally killed him if she had packed some of her father's jewels or something...imagine that...the Tohsaka Magus-killer.

I guess you could interpret this as: Caster has already accumulated so much magic that his master is just a small convenience and a nice guy to keep around. Or just oversight from the anime direction.

It's probably as you said. I mean, the caster from the first series actually KILLED her master, and was able to stick around. Uryuu is just a willing minion at this point.

Also, 10 bucks says caster will 'enhance' Uryuu later on so he can actually put up a fight.

[hoarfrost]

Heh, even if I had never read the novel, I could say for sure that this is not something that Urobuchi wrote and hence must be an original concept. one of his works would never pass on an opportunity to scar an innocent and confident little girl.

[fertygo]

Originally Posted by hoarfrost

Heh, even if I had never read the novel, I could say for sure that this is not something that Urobuchi wrote and hence must be an original concept. one of his works would never pass on an opportunity to scar an innocent and confident little girl.

Urobuchi is the series supervisor, if anything this kind of addition is his work.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by hoarfrost

Heh, even if I had never read the novel, I could say for sure that this is not something that Urobuchi wrote and hence must be an original concept. one of his works would never pass on an opportunity to scar an innocent and confident little girl.

Major point against this statement: Zero is a prequel, and should Rin be scarred at that age, it is extremely unlikely she would be the girl she became in F/SN. While Nasu and Urobuchi had to retcon minimal things to make Zero a proper prequel to SN, the opposite holds true every events in Zero can't go against how returning characters are in SN.
Contrary to what people think, Rin never saw anything in the LN either, except the "thing" in the black alley basically turned her into complete nerve wreck due to the creepy noise and her fear, exactly the same as in the anime.

[hoarfrost]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Major point against this statement: Zero is a prequel, and should Rin be scarred at that age, it is extremely unlikely she would be the girl she became in F/SN. While Nasu and Urobuchi had to retcon minimal things to make Zero a proper prequel to SN, the opposite holds true every events in Zero can't go against how returning characters are in SN.
Contrary to what people think, Rin never saw anything in the LN either, except the "thing" in the black alley basically turned her into complete nerve wreck due to the creepy noise and her fear, exactly the same as in the anime.

I have a hard time imagining that the failure to find her friend and the knowledge of what fate likely befell her didn't have a significant impact on Rin as a child. She doesn't have to be traumatized, but it was certainly the first wake up call that she ever experienced, second only to the wrecking of her family.

Spoiler for FSN just in case:

I also interpret that Nasu and Urobuchi deliberately intended this part to be a contributor to her stance on Sakura. That is to say the incident with Kotone killed her childish ambition that as a person of high stature she could just boldly right any wrong. Life is far more complicated than that. I think that this change makes her actions with regard to Sakura later on pretty inconsistent given past experiences.

Originally Posted by fertygo

Urobuchi is the series supervisor, if anything this kind of addition is his work.

Regardless, I'd be interested in hearing how the decision making process for this went.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Kanon

That was totally a fanservice episode for Rin fans. Needless to say, I loved it. Besides, it did have some merits beyond fanservice. Tokiomi is a character that desperately needed to be fleshed out, and this episode provided that. We've been shown he isn't a mere dick and that even he has a fatherly side. He seemed to genuinely care for Rin, which makes me wonder why he gave Sakura up to a walking penis worm. I suppose he might simply care for Rin as a heir rather than a daughter. I hope future episode will give us more insight about the man.

This is what confuses me...

People think he's a good father because he's a good magus mentor? Those scenes with Rin, he was teaching her about magic, nothing else. If he cared about his family that much, you'll think he wouldn't wish travel to Akasha (this isn't a spoiler, since it's revealed in the first episode) and he'll find another way to train Sakura.

[Kokukirin]

Originally Posted by fertygo

Urobuchi is the series supervisor, if anything this kind of addition is his work.

I think at best it means he was okay with the addition. It is unlikely that he came up with this idea. More likely he did not think it mattered too much when the studio decided to expand Rin's role to please the F/SN fans.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

No, really. Regardless in LN or in the anime, Kotone's plight is nothing close to Sakura's situation. It is just more introspect regarding how the casualties could hit "non nameless characters".

I suppose you're right with the light novel but in the anime I could see some genuine similarities, like how kotone was a shy girl who Rin treated in a rather sisterly way and how she felt she may have abandoned and her just went to check up on her like how she later does with Sakura. I thought Kotone and Sakura even looked similar but just with different hair and eye colors, but maybe that was just me.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Such conjuncture are hardly even in equation for the moment, especially if you don't have the whole scope of the pacing without the original material in mind.

I think the pacing would have been much more atrocious if they shortened Rin's little adventure. I agree it might be a bit too longwinded, but shortening it would force them to put the next portion in the same episode, which would make things even more disjointed. In fact, it would almost be meaningless to put Rin's portion and flat out remove it from the start if they wanted to keep the flow right with the next events.

Instead of having a "faithful" event and a half baked subsequent event, they prefered to extend it to a full episode, for just 5 minutes, so next episode wouldn't be cut midway because the early part was in an "half episode".

Having just read the LN counterpart I think you're right. They couldn't remove it alltogether since her story was a neccessary device for Kariya and Aoi to meet. They couldn't do it half an episode, since like you said it would've made things disjointed.

I suppose I should give credit where it is due and mention that they did rather well to flesh out Rin's relationship with her father and Kotone and produce that great atmosphere when Rin was trailing Ryunosuke. Really I actually thought it was a good episode up until Rin powered up like that. I think what should've happened is that instead of having Rin fight Ryunosuke, they should've filled in the gap by placing in some backstory of Kariya and Aoi's relationship. If I remember correctly, they did cut out the background explanation of Aoi and Kariya in their first scene so they could've simply placed that here. It would've worked well with the rest of the episode as well.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Major point against this statement: Zero is a prequel, and should Rin be scarred at that age, it is extremely unlikely she would be the girl she became in F/SN. While Nasu and Urobuchi had to retcon minimal things to make Zero a proper prequel to SN, the opposite holds true every events in Zero can't go against how returning characters are in SN.
Contrary to what people think, Rin never saw anything in the LN either, except the "thing" in the black alley basically turned her into complete nerve wreck due to the creepy noise and her fear, exactly the same as in the anime.

Spoiler for stuff from FSN but nothing spoilery?:

Please, FSN doesn't even mention her mother. Like the whereabouts of an insignificant childhood friend would be addressed. Her failure is important, as someone else said earlier, about what symbolizes.

And no, it wasn't the same. That part felt awfully rushed in the episode, there was little built up, compared to the fanservice nonsense earlier. When it should have been the climatic focus and not a 'oh we forgot something, here!' aftermath bonus. That and Kariya's chat with Aoi (which was the purpose of Rin's adventure, not Rin herself, but as a way to expose those two: she was nothing but a plot device to trigger it) felt tacked on to me, instead of flowing well within the episode.

I do welcome the addition of Tokiomi stuff, but they should have stopped with it. No Super loli. Please. This isn't a mahou shoujo.

[Grey]

Nice episode. There was a good creepy vibe going on at times.

Ryuunosuke was surprisingly gentle in trying to capture Rin. I guess he doesn't like using unnecessary force on his victims? Actually that sort of fits with his whole "artist" mentality.

It was cool seeing Rin break his bracelet like she broke all those gems. She was amazingly lucky on so many levels.

My only question is: what was Caster's demon starfish doing around there? Patrolling?

[Xagzan]

I'm not fully clear on Kariya's motivations for wanting Tokiomi dead. Is it just because he has a thing for Aoi himself, or loves the daughters like his own and doesn't like what happened to Sakura?

I only ask so I can actually know how I'm supposed to feel about him. Because this episode showed Tokiomi having a caring fatherly side to Rin, so if Kariya just wants him dead for some selfish reason, not so sure I'm completely cool with that, even if giving Sakura up was an unbelievable crime.

[Grey]

Originally Posted by Xagzan

I'm not fully clear on Kariya's motivations for wanting Tokiomi dead. Is it just because he has a thing for Aoi himself, or loves the daughters like his own and doesn't like what happened to Sakura?

I only ask so I can actually know how I'm supposed to feel about him. Because this episode showed Tokiomi having a caring fatherly side to Rin, so if Kariya just wants him dead for some selfish reason, not so sure I'm completely cool with that, even if giving Sakura up was an unbelievable crime.

I think it's both. And maybe Kariya thinks Aoi is in one of those Magi arranged marriages (and maybe she is). So he thinks Tokiomi's and Aoi's relationship isn't "real".

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Xagzan

I'm not fully clear on Kariya's motivations for wanting Tokiomi dead. Is it just because he has a thing for Aoi himself, or loves the daughters like his own and doesn't like what happened to Sakura?

I only ask so I can actually know how I'm supposed to feel about him. Because this episode showed Tokiomi having a caring fatherly side to Rin, so if Kariya just wants him dead for some selfish reason, not so sure I'm completely cool with that, even if giving Sakura up was an unbelievable crime.

There's lots of factors involved, I think. Kariya's hatred for Tokiomi was initially based up on his love for Aoi but was ramped up to "murderous intent" when he witnessed the horror of what Tokiomi sold his daughter to, especially a daughter that Kariya cares for. It was probably ramped up even more by the fact that he's had to suffer excrutiating pain with the worms and give up his life thanks to Tokiomi and he has what he sees as a perfectly legitimate excuse for killing Tokiomi anyway (he can only obtain the Grail by killing Tokiomi)

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Xagzan

I'm not fully clear on Kariya's motivations for wanting Tokiomi dead. Is it just because he has a thing for Aoi himself, or loves the daughters like his own and doesn't like what happened to Sakura?

He doesn't say he wants Tokiomi dead, that's Aoi's presumption (notice that she's a crappy mother too: lost one daughter, her poor parenting skills nearly gets the other one killed). Even if Kariya does blame and hate Tokiomi, he doesn't even mention him in the conversation: just saving Sakura.

Also it's both, he loves Aoi (for what? It's beyond me) and was happy for her when she got married with someone else and learned to love his daughters. He was content with it until Tokiomi gave away Sakura like that.

Originally Posted by Xagzan

I only ask so I can actually know how I'm supposed to feel about him. Because this episode showed Tokiomi having a caring fatherly side to Rin, so if Kariya just wants him dead for some selfish reason, not so sure I'm completely cool with that, even if giving Sakura up was an unbelievable crime.

Right, all caring and fatherly people would abandon one of their daughters to another family, then plan to do the same with their wife and other daughter to reach the Root (not really a spoiler, his plan was revealed in the first episode, although that fans without background in Nasuverse would miss what reaching Akasha would mean, like the origin bullets: google). He's a caring magus mentor and a deadweight dad. He's the opposite of Kariya, who would be a great father, but a terrible magus. This episode contrasted them. They are foils like Kayneth and Waver are, like Kiritsugu and Kirei are. Who is there to save Rin from danger? Certainly not Tokiomi, he's busy with his futile schemes in the basement.

[hoarfrost]

Originally Posted by Haak

There's lots of factors involved, I think. Kariya's hatred for Tokiomi was initially based up on his love for Aoi but was ramped up to "murderous intent" when he witnessed the horror of what Tokiomi sold his daughter to, especially a daughter that Kariya cares for. It was probably ramped up even more by the fact that he's had to suffer excrutiating pain with the worms and give up his life thanks to Tokiomi and he has what he sees as a perfectly legitimate excuse for killing Tokiomi anyway (he can only obtain the Grail by killing Tokiomi)

Add to that the fact that he can seemingly never escape the lineage that he hates so much. It totals up to a lot of slaps in the face.

Kariya has thoughts that I suspect most of us have at some point in our lives. Why bless people who aren't appreciative of it? I think it's pretty human and sympathetic.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Xagzan

I'm not fully clear on Kariya's motivations for wanting Tokiomi dead. Is it just because he has a thing for Aoi himself, or loves the daughters like his own and doesn't like what happened to Sakura?

I only ask so I can actually know how I'm supposed to feel about him. Because this episode showed Tokiomi having a caring fatherly side to Rin, so if Kariya just wants him dead for some selfish reason, not so sure I'm completely cool with that, even if giving Sakura up was an unbelievable crime.

I don't recall Kariya ever stating he wants Tokiomi dead. It's obvious he resents him a lot for discarding Sakura, but as of yet he hasn't gone as far as to say that he wants him dead. Though it could certainly be the case.

Regardless, while there have been some bits of insight into Kariya's character and hints regarding his inner motivations, anything at this point is mostly just interpretation and speculation still, so you're just setting yourself up for being answered with unwanted novel information with a question like that.

Anyway, I agree that there's a lot of different factors involved, but as I see it what ticks Kariya the most is that Tokiomi has the family of his dreams, yet acts coldly and indifferent towards them and was even willing to rid himself of one of the daughters, whom Kariya would've gladly raised himself. It's very natural to get pissed off at someone that takes away from you everything you've ever wanted and then treats it with disdain and indifferently discards it. Kariya doesn't give a crap about magi tradition and would've treated Aoi and her daughters with the utmost care and affection if he'd given the opportunity to do so. But he wasn't, because some cold magus bastard got it instead, and took the place Kariya wishes and likely feels should have been his. That reality had likely caused him suffering long since before the Holy Grail War even came into the equation, but with Sakura's situation it escalated to a whole new level. And obviously it doesn't help that his body has been made to suffer excruciating pain and now possesses an actual expiration date.

Originally Posted by Haak

(he can only obtain the Grail by killing Tokiomi)

Not exactly. Killing his Servant would suffice.

[Haak]

^ What I meant was that from his perspective he'll see killing Tokiomi as the only achievable way of obtaining the Grail.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

And obviously it doesn't help that his body has been made to suffer excruciating pain and now possesses an actual expiration date.

Yep. Being eaten and violated from the inside by magical bugs and running out of time usually takes a toll on people's sanity.