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Old 2004-05-12, 15:06   Link #41
Evilbunny
Cave guardian
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: NYC
Age: 36
Ok, here is why there is not equality in society and there never can be.

The first thing is that amendment was never ratified, so there is no real law saying that men have to treat women equally. Why the amendment was not ratified is the reason that there cannot be equality. If there was equality then women would have to go fight and die in the army with the men. If there was equality then women would not get treated on dates, would get doors opened for them and would have to do grunt work like the men would. Most women that want equal rights are not willing to accept that they will lose some things along with gaining others. And that is the reason that there is not and can not be equality in society
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Old 2004-05-12, 16:36   Link #42
Access
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoboGod
men get the handicaps women don't. women have less taboo in our society when it comes to fashion. to say that women are discriminated against in the workplace is tough shit... men get discriminated against too in female dominated careers. if there is something you want, work hard for it. if it means you gotta work harder than somebody else in the same position, then that's life. as the famous saying goes "Life's a bitch, and then you die."
Yes there are largely exclusive jobs for both sexes -- women can be nurses, maids, nannys, men can be pro sports players, corporate CEOs and managers, janitors, garbagemen, bouncers, organized crime enforcers, truck drivers, etc. Primarily the difficulty here that most find objectionable is the difficulty of women in moving up corporate ranks. Some firms are better than others, there's quite a variance out there. Hopefully in the long term the firms that do things right have more sucess than the ones who do things wrongly. Equal pay for equal work is the right idea, of course. Government can only go so far, sure it can enforce a law but it cannot change the attitude of people.

Granted when it comes to less respectable jobs, sure a woman can prostitute herself or even be a 'porn star' today and make more money than a man at it, but these jobs are far from respectable. It's not an empowerment that women get paid more in these jobs the same way it's not a male empowerment that organized crime would only consider a male for a position of enforcer or even a hired killer; being a 'tool' of organized crime, that's not exactly an 'empowering' position any normal person would want in the first place.
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Old 2004-05-12, 16:47   Link #43
dragonz20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cammie
You have no idea what you believe in. Make up your mind what side your opposing for. Are you equal or unequal or neutral?

In your statement you are saying you agree with Hoboaggins comment. "Hobobaggins is stating that men should take care of the women". Which is fine. Then you agree with Nak’s statement. Where she saying, basically everything equals out in the end.

Which is false! (sorry Nak) Women work very hard to be equal. We are still fighting for equality. Women will never be seen as equal to men. We make less money, we are used as sex symbols at the work place. Even with a degree men still make more money.
dragonz20 stop putting words and sentences together that don’t make sense. You forgot your talking to a female. In society today we have independent women who choose to take care of themselves or just pay for dinner when that time comes. Its not so much of a practice what you preach but preach what you practice.
And for women it comes form being part of a mans world. That’s why now a days women fight and will continue to fight for equality till the very end.

First of all, everyone works hard (or I'd like to believe that everyone does at least). Some more than others. You may work hard but so do I. Working harder is an opinion in itself and what you may consider hard work may not be hard work to me or someone else. Yes, it is true that women get paid less overall than men do when it comes to your average job.... But the amount is ridiculously low first of all and it's more of a status thing. What does it average it out to ($10-30 a month is the diference ~ pulled this number out of my ass)? Can someone find out what the actual average difference is? Second of all, as a few people have pointed out, men are handicapped majorly in other areas. If there is another war draft (I hope not), it is not women that will be forced to join the forces but men.

And as independent as you may be, you still revert back to the tradition of allowing the men to pay for your dinner, opening doors for you, catering and pampering to your needs. And i know for a fact that you enjoy those things (as do MOST women I know). basically you expect fair benefits and pay but you want special treatment... i am sure that's fair...

As for women being used as sex symbol. It goes both ways. No one can use you as a sex symbol unless you allow yourself to be used. No one can force you to wear sexy clothing that make you look real hot and make guys go nuts. Face it, women enjoy being used as a sex symbol just as much as guys enjoy using them as sex symbols... You can easily wear drab clothes (business like attire), not use make-up, not do your hair, etc but I really doubt it. No one can force you to wear a thong or a sexy 2-piece bathing suit that makes guys drool unless you yourself wanted to wear it in the first place. So is it our fault we use you as a sex symbol or your fault for allowing yourself to be used this way? How about we blame both parties?

And the capability of being used a sex symbol is an advantage. Combine it with intelligence and/or talent and you have a woman who can do anything she wants. If you have it, flaunt it...

And I've never contradicted myself. I agreed w/ Hobobaggins in the fact that men and women aren't equal in many different ways and we'll never be equal in those areas. Women want to be equal in pay and this and that but they still expect/enjoy the special treatment of the women in the past (being taken care of, not pay on the first dates, guys opening doors for them). I believe in this tradition of paying for girls on the first date, opening doors and catering to them. And that's the whole point that Nak is trying to make I believe (I guess). She wants some things and she understands that guys want other things. You have to give some to receive.

If you expect fairness, then you have to be willing to sacrifice some things and I don't think that you and the rest of the women are willing to do that.

And if you think about it, guys need that extra money so they can afford the first dates...
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Old 2004-05-12, 16:56   Link #44
wnkryo
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: new york city
I don't give a damn about women's rights or better yet, I don't care if they obtain equal or more rights than men, infact I'm all for it. I hope today's female has all the rights and privelages a man has. The only place women don't belong in is in war (actual combat), and there is nothing any body in this world could say or do that would change my mind about that matter.
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Old 2004-05-12, 17:06   Link #45
dragonz20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wnkryo
I don't give a damn about women's rights or better yet, I don't care if they obtain equal or more rights than men, infact I'm all for it. I hope today's female has all the rights and privelages a man has. The only place women don't belong in is in war (actual combat), and there is nothing any body in this world could say or do that would change my mind about that matter.
in theory, no one deserves to belong in a war...
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Old 2004-05-12, 17:14   Link #46
wnkryo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonz20
in theory, no one deserves to belong in a war...

Let's not get started with that... (and get WAY off topic )
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Old 2004-05-12, 17:15   Link #47
dragonz20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wnkryo
Let's not get started with that... (and get WAY off topic )
lol.. okay...
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Old 2004-05-12, 17:31   Link #48
Jinto
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Join Date: Feb 2004
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I think, a person, regardless of the gender should also have the chance to live outside the status quo. But most of the people just don't want to, because they got so used to their lifes. This makes it for the minority of both genders harder to establish on the opposite genders establishment. This may or may not change... that depends on how succesfull this minority conquers the opposite genders establishment, and how many followers this minority is able to find.
I would like to see another world, where the present establishments are broken by equality. It would be much more interesting I suppose. But both genders in general don't really see such a great need to change, because they got used to their establishment, most people optimized themselves just to be best set for it. Now why would they want to change and learn many things new? Besides, that would mean many people had to give up some of their personality, because they learned to live in a system under certain conditions. Even when the system turns out to be wrong, many people will try to defend it, because otherwise they lose a big portion of what defines themselves. They would need to redifine themselves, and that is the last thing a person wants to do, regardless of the gender.
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Old 2004-05-12, 18:00   Link #49
Access
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonz20
As for women being used as sex symbol. It goes both ways. No one can use you as a sex symbol unless you allow yourself to be used. No one can force you to wear sexy clothing that make you look real hot and make guys go nuts. Face it, women enjoy being used as a sex symbol just as much as guys enjoy using them as sex symbols... You can easily wear drab clothes (business like attire), not use make-up, not do your hair, etc but I really doubt it. No one can force you to wear a thong or a sexy 2-piece bathing suit that makes guys drool unless you yourself wanted to wear it in the first place. So is it our fault we use you as a sex symbol or your fault for allowing yourself to be used this way? How about we blame both parties?
Doesn't always work, women wanting not to be not a sex symbol can try these things but no matter, it may lessen the chance but it is impossible to eliminate it altogether. Some men find women in business suits sexually attractive, in Japan there are whole magazines dedicated to business-suit fetish or other formalwear fetish. And there are whole lines of manga dedicated to things like sexual harassment in the workplace for those men with 'office lady' fetish.

Some women may be able to pass as a man with effort but that is extreme, not any woman can do it nor is it something she should be forced to do for a top job or to get respect.
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Old 2004-05-12, 19:01   Link #50
Joe Dalton
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thany
And that is the typical approach of the people who think that women are inferiors, it's not because you're male or female that you should do something specific, that's what is called sexism.
no... its not sexism 2 concude there are differences... and only a complete braindead would say that raising a child is inferior 2 getting money.
Its a simple fact that women and men treat their children differently... if you wanna say thats not true I dont really see any point in arguing about this with you...

In a further reply 2 this thread...
quota are no way 2 gain equality
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Old 2004-05-12, 19:04   Link #51
HoboGod
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cammie
Women work very hard to be equal. We are still fighting for equality. Women will never be seen as equal to men. We make less money, we are used as sex symbols at the work place. Even with a degree men still make more money.
dragonz20 stop putting words and sentences together that don’t make sense. You forgot your talking to a female. In society today we have independent women who choose to take care of themselves or just pay for dinner when that time comes. Its not so much of a practice what you preach but preach what you practice.
And for women it comes form being part of a mans world. That’s why now a days women fight and will continue to fight for equality till the very end.
women can work as hard as they like. but until they start to cross certain lines, men will always underestimate women.

two things make men (or at least most men) excited more than probably anything else: sex and violence. but all men have some limit or line that once crossed, excitement turns into disgust, and then another line after that where disgust turns into fear. with sex, the line to cross into fear is probably pretty disturbing (expecialy when for some people, lines aren't even crossed at the unspeakable crap you see on the net.) therefor, what i'm suggesting is that women become more violent. hell, for alot of people, cold-eyes after killing an animal is the line from disgust to fear. men fear men because a HELL of alot worse... I can't even name one woman that has organized a systematic genocide.

The amazons wore the proverbal pants in their society because they were violent enough to be feared. men will allow themselves to be dominated if they even think they cannot dominate the other person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Access
Some women may be able to pass as a man with effort but that is extreme, not any woman can do it nor is it something she should be forced to do for a top job or to get respect.
oh, and what should they be forced to do if not a) act like a man or b) use sex appeal?

men don't just get top jobs because they are men. although with hard work, they are more likely to get top job because they are men. why is that? because men are on top of this society and they have fought like HELL to be on top. they get the top job and pass the top job to men. women do nothing and expect everything. if you want other women to have more oppertunities, then fight like hell just as the men did and take all the top jobs away from men. don't expect men to lie down and give you the jobs they secured just because you're a woman.
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Old 2004-05-12, 19:22   Link #52
Cammie
Smooth and Curvy...
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonz20
How about we blame both parties?
So your answer is neutral? I had to reread your post over again because it felt like dejavu. You are just rewording everything from your previous post. To something long and drawn out. As we are all (regular Suki members) aware of how you love a good debate. There is no debating on this subject because your answer is neutral. No winner or loser here. Thats all I wanted to know sweetie were you stood in this matter.


but....
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonz20
And that's the whole point that Nak is trying to make I believe (I guess). She wants some things and she understands that guys want other things. You have to give some to receive.
so your saying since your buying dinner we should put out? please explain? this sounds very sexist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonz20
As for women being used as sex symbol. It goes both ways. No one can use you as a sex symbol unless you allow yourself to be used. No one can force you to wear sexy clothing that make you look real hot and make guys go nuts. Face it, women enjoy being used as a sex symbol just as much as guys enjoy using them as sex symbols... You can easily wear drab clothes (business like attire), not use make-up, not do your hair, etc but I really doubt it. No one can force you to wear a thong or a sexy 2-piece bathing suit that makes guys drool unless you yourself wanted to wear it in the first place. So is it our fault we use you as a sex symbol or your fault for allowing yourself to be used this way? How about we blame both parties?

And the capability of being used a sex symbol is an advantage. Combine it with intelligence and/or talent and you have a woman who can do anything she wants. If you have it, flaunt it...
I wasn't going to touch this but Access did


Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonz20
If there is another war draft (I hope not), it is not women that will be forced to join the forces but men.
with respect to wnkryo I will not comment on this statement.

Last edited by Cammie; 2004-05-12 at 19:42.
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Old 2004-05-12, 19:36   Link #53
Access
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoboGod
men don't just get top jobs because they are men. although with hard work, they are more likely to get top job because they are men. why is that? because men are on top of this society and they have fought like HELL to be on top. they get the top job and pass the top job to men. women do nothing and expect everything. if you want other women to have more oppertunities, then fight like hell just as the men did and take all the top jobs away from men. don't expect men to lie down and give you the jobs they secured just because you're a woman.
Life ain't a big competition, or a battle for that matter. It shouldn't be defined in terms of conflict. A meaningful corporation should hire the best person for the job, regardless of other factors. One who 'fights like hell' only when it comes to 'being on top' is not a team player and really has no place in a corporation. They may be adept at running a one-person business but if everything is based on self-serving interest they aren't a good employee. I am against quotas or anything like that. Even if all companies had fair hiring practices there would still be less women in high corporate positions, because less women in the world (compared to men) aspire to be those things. I just want a place where people treat each other with respect and where fair hiring practice is the norm not the exception. I am not actively whining about any problem today because I think the transition is a given, companies that do have fair hiring practice will get better employees overall than the old boys' networks and employees are what puts a company above the others.
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Old 2004-05-12, 19:45   Link #54
Cammie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Access
Life ain't a big competition, or a battle for that matter. It shouldn't be defined in terms of conflict. A meaningful corporation should hire the best person for the job, regardless of other factors. One who 'fights like hell' only when it comes to 'being on top' is not a team player and really has no place in a corporation. They may be adept at running a one-person business but if everything is based on self-serving interest they aren't a good employee. I am against quotas or anything like that. Even if all companies had fair hiring practices there would still be less women in high corporate positions, because less women in the world (compared to men) aspire to be those things. I just want a place where people treat each other with respect and where fair hiring practice is the norm not the exception. I am not actively whining about any problem today because I think the transition is a given, companies that do have fair hiring practice will get better employees overall than the old boys' networks and employees are what puts a company above the others.
Very well said!!
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Old 2004-05-12, 19:54   Link #55
HoboGod
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O_o.... you lost me at "life ain't a big competition"

what kind of existance is that? if you want to be top dog, you eat all the other dogs. in life, there are those who serve and those who reign. the best person for the job is the one who is good enough, ruthless enough, and strong enough to take it. people work harder to protect their job. if you don't save yourself first, then you wont be saved. respect is earned, and nobody gets paid to be fair.
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Old 2004-05-12, 20:30   Link #56
dragonz20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoboGod
O_o.... you lost me at "life ain't a big competition"

what kind of existance is that? if you want to be top dog, you eat all the other dogs. in life, there are those who serve and those who reign. the best person for the job is the one who is good enough, ruthless enough, and strong enough to take it. people work harder to protect their job. if you don't save yourself first, then you wont be saved. respect is earned, and nobody gets paid to be fair.
Existence? That is up to you to decide. You can take it easy and work as a teamplayer and be happy in the lower levels of the corporate world (assuming u are in one) or you can work your ass off to climb up to the top. That is the natural order of the corporate chain. There are plenty of jobs on the lower levels but as you progress up the corporate ladder, there are less jobs available and thus leading to higher and tougher competition.

Yes, teamwork is very important but to be the very top dog, you have to compete harder than anyone else. You have to want it more than others. If you wanna be a teamplayer, they'll be plenty of positions for you working under that man or woman who will outwork, betray, or murder any and everyone to get to the top. I am not saying you HAVE to be ruthless and immoral to get up to the top but the MAJORITY of the people who are up there are the ones who sacrificed themselves by working their asses off to get there and they don't usually worry about who they step on to get there. Can a woman get to the top? Absolutely. Will she have to work harder than a man to get there. Maybe or maybe not. But would it matter just as long as you get up there? It would already a hell of a lot of work already...
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Old 2004-05-12, 20:34   Link #57
junko
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Join Date: Apr 2004
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Age: 41
(Bear with me, I'm pretentious, long winded and there's way too much presented to go responding to every post I like or dislike.)

Although women's equality had vastly progressed from the demand of the vote, we are still, largely, oppressed. Women are not welcomed in certain areas of the workforce (brokerage, accounting, CEO and other corporate positions, etc), and are outright demanded admittance into others. However, this is oftentimes dependent on the company. The mysongyistic beliefs held by the earlier generations still exist, because they're still around educating their children, setting us up for disaster. I think the pay inequality is somewhere around $.80/$1.00.

Women are often socialized to accept men's mysogynistic behavior, or, if not, at least not to challenge it. "Don't rock the boat" has always been the popular phrase when schooling girl-children. Likewise, boys are also socialized to avoid the "feminine" aspects of life. Most men don't actively participate in their childrens' lives because their fathers didn't. And lost of men don't cook and clean because it's still thought of as "womens' work".

Dressing sexy is physically objectifying to women, but, I'm sad to say, this is largely the fault of women. Those who know better set a bad example for those who don't.

And, personally, I think women should have to praticipate in the draft. I sure as hell dont want to go to war, but neither to the majority of men. If we want equal rights, we should be prepared to make some sacrifices (I think dragonz20 brought this up). And, in the dating scene, whomever does the asking should be prepared to pay. And free beer and tacos for all!

And to whomever stated that men focus better than women, that's just BS. Focus and natural skill are not based on sex, although interest and dominance (in certain areas) seem to be.

That's all I have to say.
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Old 2004-05-12, 20:59   Link #58
Cammie
Smooth and Curvy...
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by junko
(Bear with me, I'm pretentious, long winded and there's way too much presented to go responding to every post I like or dislike.)

Although women's equality had vastly progressed from the demand of the vote, we are still, largely, oppressed. Women are not welcomed in certain areas of the workforce (brokerage, accounting, CEO and other corporate positions, etc), and are outright demanded admittance into others. However, this is oftentimes dependent on the company. The mysongyistic beliefs held by the earlier generations still exist, because they're still around educating their children, setting us up for disaster. I think the pay inequality is somewhere around $.80/$1.00.

Dressing sexy is physically objectifying to women, but, I'm sad to say, this is largely the fault of women. Those who know better set a bad example for those who don't.

And, personally, I think women should have to praticipate in the draft. I sure as hell dont want to go to war, but neither to the majority of men. If we want equal rights, we should be prepared to make some sacrifices (I think dragonz20 brought this up). And, in the dating scene, whomever does the asking should be prepared to pay. And free beer and tacos for all!

And to whomever stated that men focus better than women, that's just BS. Focus and natural skill are not based on sex, although interest and dominance (in certain areas) seem to be.

That's all I have to say.
misogynistic I haven't heard that word in a while. Btw..... what kind of sacrifices are you willing to make? thats like opening a can of worms my dear.
Yes, I agree with your comment: "whomever does the asking should be prepared to pay."

Quote:
Originally Posted by junko
Women are often socialized to accept men's mysogynistic behavior, or, if not, at least not to challenge it. "Don't rock the boat" has always been the popular phrase when schooling girl-children. Likewise, boys are also socialized to avoid the "feminine" aspects of life. Most men don't actively participate in their childrens' lives because their fathers didn't. And lost of men don't cook and clean because it's still thought of as "womens' work".
This is so untrue junko. I work in a elementary school and I always see fathers (not most, all father's/men in my school) participate in school activities one way or another, eating lunch with their children and even be the room mom (*ahem room dad). There are alot of stay at home dad these days. That do the household chores. Well... as you put it "womens' work".

Last edited by Cammie; 2004-05-12 at 21:23.
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Old 2004-05-12, 20:59   Link #59
Access
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoboGod
O_o.... you lost me at "life ain't a big competition"

what kind of existance is that? if you want to be top dog, you eat all the other dogs. in life, there are those who serve and those who reign. the best person for the job is the one who is good enough, ruthless enough, and strong enough to take it. people work harder to protect their job. if you don't save yourself first, then you wont be saved. respect is earned, and nobody gets paid to be fair.
Someone who thinks like that can work at a company full of people who think the same way. Someone who thinks as a team player would also do best to join a company where this mindset is valued. And my guess is a company full of selfish people is going to lose out to a company full of people who know how to look out for each other and how to work as a team. I'm used to working in small companies of "like-minded people", not big businesses where corporate heirarchies exist. Most people in the US work in "small business" not in the mega-corporations.
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Old 2004-05-12, 21:04   Link #60
HoboGod
Necromancer
 
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Cardboard Box
Age: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by junko
And, personally, I think women should have to praticipate in the draft. I sure as hell dont want to go to war, but neither to the majority of men. If we want equal rights, we should be prepared to make some sacrifices (I think dragonz20 brought this up). And, in the dating scene, whomever does the asking should be prepared to pay. And free beer and tacos for all!
you speak of sacrifce, but how far are you willing to go? how far are most women willing to go? free drinks, free food, omittance from the draft.... all these things have never been socially given to men. these are luxuries given to women while men have been socially told to "don't ever cry," "fight back if somebody hits you," and "stay tough even if you need help." are you prepared for women to take this social expectation as well? and don't give that bullshit that these things can change if women were in charge as well. men don't like these rules just as much as women wouldn't like them. but if somebody doesn't take these roles, then those with problems wouldn't have anyone to fall back on. would it be okay for women to hide all their emotions, crack skulls when chalanged, and rely only on themselves to solve your own problems.

EDIT:

cammie beat me to that question. ^_^

------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Access
Someone who thinks like that can work at a company full of people who think the same way. Someone who thinks as a team player would also do best to join a company where this mindset is valued. And my guess is a company full of selfish people is going to lose out to a company full of people who know how to look out for each other and how to work as a team. I'm used to working in small companies of "like-minded people", not big businesses where corporate heirarchies exist. Most people in the US work in "small business" not in the mega-corporations.
i clearly said: "there are those who serve and those who reign." by that, i mean the conquered dog will follow its master.
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