Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[Washu-Chan]

Originally Posted by Haak

One thing that i don't think I've mentioned (and is more to do with the entire SEED franchise as a whole) is how Orb is just so God damn ideal and just happens to exhibit a lot of Japanese culture.

In an 2003 interview (after Seed was finished), Fukuda claimed that Orb was supposed to be his "ideal Japan":

Originally Posted by Mitsuo Fukuda

That's just an ideal. Japan that is. However, they weren't occupied. Think about it, in order to be ruled you need massive military power and that's troublesome.

Source: http://aeug.blogspot.com/2003_11_01_...64206584707878

I don't know if Fukuda is really telling the truth or if he's just awful in interviews, so take these for what you will.

[Kirayuki]

Originally Posted by Haak

Episode 49 & Final Plus
Personally I think it would've been loads better if Kira and Rey were replaced with Athrun and Shinn in that scene but that's just me.

Almost similar to what I thought back then, I thought it would make sense if Shinn was also present along with Kira, Athrun and Rey. It's also pretty strange not to let Shinn have parting words with Rey.

Overall impressions

Same as my impressions with the first season really. It had it's good moments and bad moments. There was a bit of a larger than usual hiccup between episode 46 and 48 but otherwise I don't consider it that much more flawed than the first season. Maybe the first season is slightly better but only slightly. One thing that i don't think I've mentioned (and is more to do with the entire SEED franchise as a whole) is how Orb is just so God damn ideal and just happens to exhibit a lot of Japanese culture. Seems a bit obnoxious but maybe I'm just looking into things too much.

Overall Rating: 7.0/10

I think part of what make the final part of the prequel to be slightly better is that it doesn't suffer from 2 (1 and half?)recap-episodes being shoved in, that really break the tension and buildup.

[Mad Pierrot]

Originally Posted by Hashuchan

I don't know if Fukuda is really telling the truth or if he's just awful in interviews, so take these for what you will.

It's hard to confirm if some interviews are real. They are full of inconsistencies and comment some things Sunrise would never reveal. Even the guys from TVtropes noted the web is full of made up or poorly translated inteviews so they can't go around citing Fukuda.

Edit: Fix quote

Originally Posted by Haak

Durandal's plan seems a bit vague. What exactly is the Destiny Plan supposed to achieve.

According to the printed version the idea was to control everyone, putting them in a place suitable for their natrual genetics and abilities, forcing them to stay there whether they liked it or not, and thus creating a world where everyone can, and must co-exist.

About Durandal... is it true that he caused the fall of Junius 7 just to find an excuse to take down EA and Orb? The idea that the crazy Coordinators were doing it for Patrick Zala sounds weird and it only served to confuse Athrun

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Haak

Overall impressions

Same as my impressions with the first season really. It had it's good moments and bad moments. There was a bit of a larger than usual hiccup between episode 46 and 48 but otherwise I don't consider it that much more flawed than the first season. Maybe the first season is slightly better but only slightly. One thing that i don't think I've mentioned (and is more to do with the entire SEED franchise as a whole) is how Orb is just so God damn ideal and just happens to exhibit a lot of Japanese culture. Seems a bit obnoxious but maybe I'm just looking into things too much.

Overall Rating: 7.0/10

You just saved yourself by watching that Final Plus, buddy. The original ending is much worse and really is the final nail in the coffin (which what I use when judging the series as a whole). The Final Plus is just an attempt to clean up the mess left behind.

[Haak]

^ Oh I see. I don't really know what the difference is between the two except that Plus was obviously longer but I don't know what content was added.

Originally Posted by amaterasu4

About Durandal... is it true that he caused the fall of Junius 7 just to find an excuse to take down EA and Orb? The idea that the crazy Coordinators were doing it for Patrick Zala sounds weird and it only served to confuse Athrun

I didn't see anything that suggested that Durandal was behind Junius Seven, but then again, I didn't see any confirmation of him behind the attempted assassination of Lacus Clyne (though I guess that didn't need confirmation.

I'd like to believe Durandal didn't do it because I don't think it's in the least bit weird that terrorist fractions would form from their bitterness from the war. These kinda things really do happen. What was weird is that there was no other info given about these terrorists. We never find out who exactly they were, why exactly they decided to stray from the current ZAFT and how they planned it. There was no investigation launched at all to determine the facts. I mean if there was enough bitterness from the war to produce one terrorist fraction, you'd imagine there'd be other members or groups or people who share those opinions. But if they existed at all then they didn't have any effect on the plot at all.

Originally Posted by amaterasu4

It's hard to confirm if some interviews are real. They are full of inconsistencies and comment some things Sunrise would never reveal. Even the guys from TVtropes noted the web is full of made up or poorly translated inteviews so they can't go around citing Fukuda.

I don't know how you've managed to quote me talking about the interviews....

[Mad Pierrot]

I see Durandal as the opposite of Rau. While Rau wanted destruction Durandal wanted to save mankind through control. It was obvious that Rau was SEED's villain since he was open about his intentions whereas Durandal kept his appearance so well that some insist he was the real hero.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Haak

^ Oh I see. I don't really know what the difference is between the two except that Plus was obviously longer but I don't know what content was added.

Generally speaking, it was a more rushed version of Final Plus minus the materials added after Durandal, Rey, and Thalia died. And not just that, almost all the scenes (pre Durandal's death) feel rushed and poorly edited. In short, the original ending is just about: defeat Shinn & Rey -> destroy the WMD -> kill Durandal -> end credits, just like that.

If you're a masochist, you may want to witness it yourself , but I advice you not to.

[Washu-Chan]

Originally Posted by Haak

^ Oh I see. I don't really know what the difference is between the two except that Plus was obviously longer but I don't know what content was added.

Only one pic is needed to describe the original GSD ending:

Spoiler:

[Mad Pierrot]

This is what happens when you stay on the defensive long enough to make a counterattack, lol.

[Rising Dragon]

It's made even more jarring by the promotional image for the final episode in the magazines, which showed a totally wrecked Destiny going in for the kill against an equally-wrecked Strike Freedom. Which sure as hell didn't happen in the last episode. At least 00 had the decency to use accurate imagery for its final battle promotions before and after the fact.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Destiny has sweet Gundam poses, I admit that.

[Washu-Chan]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

now the betting starts: which of Destiny's females will get the Fllay treatment in the Destiny Remaster?

By the "Fllay treatment", do you mean that any of the major female characters will be "McLeaned"?

If it really does happen (and I hope it doesn't), here are the probabilities:

1. Cagalli: Given Naomi Shindo's alleged strained relationship with Morosawa, it's likely that she'll be killed off post-GSD.
2. Lunamaria: Fukuda's way of sticking it to Maaya Sakamoto after she married Kenichi Suzumura.
3. Meyrin
4. Lacus: Not a chance.

[Znozzy]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Generally speaking, it was a more rushed version of Final Plus minus the materials added after Durandal, Rey, and Thalia died. And not just that, almost all the scenes (pre Durandal's death) feel rushed and poorly edited. In short, the original ending is just about: defeat Shinn & Rey -> destroy the WMD -> kill Durandal -> FLAWLESS VICTORY end credits, just like that.

If you're a masochist, you may want to witness it yourself , but I advice you not to.

fixed for a more accurate description of the original ending*

Originally Posted by Washu-Chan

By the "Fllay treatment", do you mean that any of the major female characters will be "McLeaned"?

If it really does happen (and I hope it doesn't), here are the probabilities:

1. Cagalli: Given Naomi Shindo's alleged strained relationship with Morosawa, it's likely that she'll be killed off post-GSD.
2. Lunamaria: Fukuda's way of sticking it to Maaya Sakamoto after she married Kenichi Suzumura.
3. Meyrin
4. Lacus: Not a chance.

1. Fllay: Revived as a cyborg/clone as the new Blue Logos leader in the upcoming GSD - The naturals strikes back movie coming 2015?

[monster]

Originally Posted by Haak

That actually sounds about right to me.

Good, then you should also realize that people in general can be more tolerant of a thief than a murderer.

That's what I'm calling BS on though. Their decision to go with the treaty. There wasn't any hint before that.

What do you mean?

And how they hated it and eventually defected to Cagalli so they could follow their ideals again? Yes I saw.

They didn't defect to Cagalli. The Archangel took some of the survivors from Takemikazuchi. And the point is that they still went along the Seirans.

But they would definitely disagree with a decision to join and help the AF. They'd be livid that they're now supporting the very people who invaded them and killed their people two years ago.

The show indicates otherwise.

Through neutrality. That's the method. That's the ideal.

And when that ideal has proven ineffective, the Seirans decided they needed a better way to protect Orb.

If you're trying to argue that Orb did still have a chance in it then what you've pointed out is a plot hole. The fact of the matter is that the story still made it clear it was only a matter of time for Orb and they were quickly running out.

The story made it clear that Uzumi wasn't just thinking about Orb when he made that decision. That's why I actually agree with his decision.

But for the sake of this discussion, I'm saying that if Orb's ideals were so important, Uzumi should've used everything he has to fight for it even if it was in a losing battle.

The ideals concern foreign policy.

That's exactly my point all along. And foreign policies, ideals or not, has to be modified to reflect the changing times.

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by Washu-Chan

By the "Fllay treatment", do you mean that any of the major female characters will be "McLeaned"?

If it really does happen (and I hope it doesn't), here are the probabilities:

1. Cagalli: Given Naomi Shindo's alleged strained relationship with Morosawa, it's likely that she'll be killed off post-GSD.
2. Lunamaria: Fukuda's way of sticking it to Maaya Sakamoto after she married Kenichi Suzumura.
3. Meyrin
4. Lacus: Not a chance.

Just give it to Meyrin already! What a waste of space for a supporting character IMO.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Washu-Chan

By the "Fllay treatment", do you mean that any of the major female characters will be "McLeaned"?

I'm guessing it's the SEED HD Flay treatment.

Lunamaria: Fukuda's way of sticking it to Maaya Sakamoto after she married Kenichi Suzumura.

You seriously have to stop with the conspiracy theory.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by monster

Good, then you should also realize that people in general can be more tolerant of a thief than a murderer.

But it's still against the law.

What do you mean?

There wasn't any hint that the people had turned against the countries ideals.

They didn't defect to Cagalli. The Archangel took some of the survivors from Takemikazuchi. And the point is that they still went along the Seirans.

The survivors willingly went to Archangel even though Archanagel was identified as the enemy. They defected and very clearly talked about wanting to follow their ideals again. They only grudginly went with the Seirans. The fact that they still followed their orders does not prove that the Orb Ideals are not a strong part of their culture still.

The show indicates otherwise.

Yes I know. That's what I'm calling BS on.

And when that ideal has proven ineffective, the Seirans decided they needed a better way to protect Orb.

This is besides the point and isn't even what we were talking about. We were talking about whether Uzumi really did break his ideals when he failed to prevent Earth Alliance invading, but we're already talking about this below so we might as well drop this one.

The story made it clear that Uzumi wasn't just thinking about Orb when he made that decision. That's why I actually agree with his decision.

What are you talking about? What wasn't he just thinking of when he made what decision?

But for the sake of this discussion, I'm saying that if Orb's ideals were so important, Uzumi should've used everything he has to fight for it even if it was in a losing battle.

But you specifically made an exception that Orb could surrender if they recognised there was no hope of victory just like how Japan surrendered, so it stands to reason they should be allowed to retreat to fight another day for that same reason.

That's exactly my point all along. And foreign policies, ideals or not, has to be modified to reflect the changing times.

That wasn't your point at all because that has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

We were talking about how how the fact that Uzumi failed to prevent an invasion (supposedly breaking an ideal not through intention but through unforeseen consequence) proves that those ideals were not integral to the government after all.

Your original point is that the government frequently broke those ideals at a whim. Moving aside the problem that this was clearly a deontological point and not a consequentialism one (and I've already proven Uzumi was following his ideals from a deontological point), your claim that foreign policy has to change to reflect the times does not, in anyway, show that Uzumi failing to prevent an invasion shows that those ideals were not integral to the country.

[Mad Pierrot]

You seriously have to stop with the conspiracy theory.

That's asking too much. The fandom is really weird. I already saw theories that Fukuda slept with Naomi Shindo while Soichiro Hoshi started a revolution of voice acting. There is also the dumb theory of a court case. -_-

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

Just give it to Meyrin already! What a waste of space for a supporting character IMO.

No no, on Gladys!

[monster]

Originally Posted by Haak

There wasn't any hint that the people had turned against the countries ideals.

...

Yes I know. That's what I'm calling BS on.

And that's your problem right there. You're just not accepting what the story is telling you.

Orb officially joined the EA. That's more than just a hint.

But you specifically made an exception that Orb could surrender if they recognised there was no hope of victory just like how Japan surrendered, so it stands to reason they should be allowed to retreat to fight another day for that same reason.

Two ships fleeing the country does not count as a retreat for the country when the country itself is taken.

This is besides the point and isn't even what we were talking about. We were talking about whether Uzumi really did break his ideals when he failed to prevent Earth Alliance invading, but we're already talking about this below so we might as well drop this one.

...

That wasn't your point at all because that has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

We were talking about how how the fact that Uzumi failed to prevent an invasion (supposedly breaking an ideal not through intention but through unforeseen consequence) proves that those ideals were not integral to the government after all.

Your original point is that the government frequently broke those ideals at a whim. Moving aside the problem that this was clearly a deontological point and not a consequentialism one (and I've already proven Uzumi was following his ideals from a deontological point), your claim that foreign policy has to change to reflect the times does not, in anyway, show that Uzumi failing to prevent an invasion shows that those ideals were not integral to the country.

Alright, it seems you're confused about where I stand on this matter. So let me try to rephrase it for you:

My original point has been that Orb's known ideals deal with foreign policies. Thus, while these ideals are important and desirable to Orb, they can be changed to suit the needs of Orb as a country living amongst other nations.

Now, as far as the Uzumi part of the discussion, again, my issue has never been that he failed to defeat the AF. It's that he gave up on the fight rather than seeing it through to the end.

And the reason I'm making an issue out of this (even though I actually support it) is to point out that Orb's ideals are not rigidly enforced.

It's the same way with the Heliopolis incident and how it's handled with just a "PR move."

So when it comes to joining the EA in Destiny, even if there are people who may not like it, it ultimately didn't matter to the story once the government has decided on the matter, especially if the alternative is being outright invaded a second time.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by monster

And that's your problem right there. You're just not accepting what the story is telling you.

Orb officially joined the EA. That's more than just a hint.

Yes...

I know...

I also explained why i couldn't accept it. But just saying that's not what the story did is not a good comeback.

Two ships fleeing the country does not count as a retreat for the country when the country itself is taken.

It does when the soldiers continue to fight for said country.

Alright, it seems you're confused about where I stand on this matter. So let me try to rephrase it for you:

My original point has been that Orb's known ideals deal with foreign policies. Thus, while these ideals are important and desirable to Orb, they can be changed to suit the needs of Orb as a country living amongst other nations.

Just because it's a foreign policy doesn't mean they intend it to be situational. Uzumi and other characters made it clear those ideals had preserved through changing times and were meant to keep on doing so.

But can those ideals be changed? Yeah sure, I can accept that Orb might wish to change those ideals.

But I never had an issue with that in the first place. My issue was the change itself didn't make sense.

Now, as far as the Uzumi part of the discussion, again, my issue has never been that he failed to defeat the AF. It's that he gave up on the fight rather than seeing it through to the end.

So now you're reverting back to the deontological stance? But I made it clear he thought he did a satisfactory job of seeing it through to the end. Your point was the invasion was one piece of evidence that the ideals were not that integral to Uzumi and thus the country. But I've shown that Uzumi did think he was following his ideals so they were integral to him.

And the reason I'm making an issue out of this (even though I actually support it) is to point out that Orb's ideals are not rigidly enforced.

I already accepted that they are not rigidly enforced and that there was leeway.

It's the same way with the Heliopolis incident and how it's handled with just a "PR move."

And I accepted that they were breaking the ideals then, but the fact that they tried to handle it with PR moves is just further proof that the ideals are integral.

So when it comes to joining the EA in Destiny, even if there are people who may not like it, it ultimately didn't matter to the story once the government has decided on the matter, especially if the alternative is being outright invaded a second time.

And I also made the point that even if they do decide to abadon the ideals, this won't mean that the people would be willing to side with a force that invaded them and killed them just two years ago.