2010-07-07, 15:37 | Link #13302 | |
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The names referred to in red in that episode were Battler, Kanon, Rosa, Maria, Natsuhi, Kyrie, Eva, Erika, Krauss, Rudolf, Hideyoshi, Gohda, Kumasawa, George, Shannon, and Nanjo. A total of 16 people, and Jessica and Genji were never referred to. What I'm saying is that only these 16 names refer to actual characters.
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2010-07-07, 15:40 | Link #13303 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2009
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Kinzo ceased to be an actual PIECE when Battler found out that Kinzo is already dead at the start time of every game What did she? She LOWERED THE COUNTER BY 1, because she was FORCED. Everyone on the island belived Kinzo existed, so the number was +1 by Magic ( yes, when everyone believes, here's the magic ). The same thing could apply to Kanon: if everyone believes that Kanon the Servant exists as in individual, the number is indeed CORRECT! The very exact moment that the human side finds out about the trick. Puff. The Game master would be forced again to lower the counter. Remember how was the human explication of the Trial in ep 5? Erika that in front of everyone one explains everything. And when Lambda confirmed the theory, EVERYONE IN ROKKENJIMA ACCEPTED IT AS TRUTH!. Turn over the chessboard and voila', here's the people number illusion! Remember, Red Truth is not GOLD TRUTH. It's open to interpretations! Also, we do remember that Red Truth applies to specific moments of the game unless specified? We can quote the red truth, but we have to think WHEN it was made, because unless it specifies "it applies for all games" , its time-dependant. |
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2010-07-07, 15:43 | Link #13304 |
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Join Date: May 2009
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No, Beatrice always said "no more than." "No more than" can mean less than the number stated, or the exact number. She lowered the number by one for Kinzo because confirming his death left open the possibility of a Person X if she did not. She never explicitly said that by lowering the number for one, she was fixing the number of people.
The end of ep6 is the one and only time a specific number has ever been used.
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2010-07-07, 15:46 | Link #13305 | |
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2010-07-07, 15:49 | Link #13306 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2009
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I think the existence of red truth is conditioned by the beliefs of everyone on the island. Since without proof you can't disprove anything, the truth remains truth. Red Truth is for definition something that the human side must accept. Gold Truth seems to be indipendent of people's beliefs.. Battler used it to make everyone accept that that corpse was Kinzo. |
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2010-07-07, 15:49 | Link #13307 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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But then how do you explain how Kanon escaped from the cousin's room? That's what I'm getting at. If I still need to think about a free interpretation of "all names refer to the actual people" then I have really nothing to gain from accepting a dirty trick like removing two characters that always appeared so far. Quote:
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2010-07-07, 15:53 | Link #13308 | |
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The gold truth however is a human proof and it requires some sort of evidence or human knowledge to say. It's a subjective proof and is not absolute truth at all. Or it's just a bluff, but I don't really like that idea. Ryukishi also said the golden truth is like a finishing move in a fighting game, which was a metaphor I used myself once before he said that. It's bad in certain situation and better in others. I think it's strongest when it's trapped in red and blue (since there is more information built up then) and weak when only red is used. It's best save as a last minute move.
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2010-07-07, 15:53 | Link #13309 |
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True, but could it be used in such a fashion? We know Kinzo's body is on the island but he doesn't count towards that number because he is dead. That means the 5 sacrifices should probably not be counted in the same way. Unless of course, Kinzo doesn't count because he can't influence the game at all. Anyways, I think at the end they meant no more than 17 again.
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2010-07-07, 15:56 | Link #13310 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2009
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I'd try to add an immaginary "in this precise moment" to every red truth that doesn't specify another timespam.. it would be interesting.. After all we know that you can make a red truth only when the moment is right. |
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2010-07-07, 16:01 | Link #13312 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2009
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After all he said in red "Presentation of evidence, i present a corpse that could possibly be identified as Ushiromiya Kinzo". Dlanor forced Battler to use Gold right because he could not use red. in real world sounds like: "this is kinzo's corpse" "how can you say it? prove it. " "Listen, you have to believe it because I SAY SO." "ok. i believe you." |
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2010-07-07, 16:02 | Link #13313 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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The "apply for all games" isn't actually a matter related to "time".
Games are treated as completely separate universes. But of course reds are tied to time. If it is said that "Jessica is dead", it means that Jessica died at a certain time not that it was dead since the start of the universe. But how this has anything to do with the idea that red are influenced by beliefs? red truth is simply the truth Once it's said that Jessica died at a certain time, for all eternity she'll be dead at that precise time in that precise fragment.
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2010-07-07, 16:03 | Link #13315 | |
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For example he could be guaranteeing Ushiromiya Kinzo's corpse is "somewhere" if it's subjective and not "this corpse is definitely his", which is objective. And a lot of times the "this applies to all games" reds only makes sense if it's all games that are here now. I've pointed this out before, but Beato is not a fortune teller.
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Last edited by Judoh; 2010-07-07 at 16:17. |
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2010-07-07, 16:05 | Link #13316 |
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Join Date: Dec 2009
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Even if there were less than 17 people on the island, would this change any suspects in the murders?
Having Person X would only lead to possibly the Boatman (seen at the beginning of the game) or some other person. Knox's Rules still applies (well most of them).
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2010-07-07, 16:16 | Link #13318 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
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Ahh yes. A real human Beatrice! However, judging from the Chessboard theory, where can a Beatrice be hiding in the rain?
Also just being curious, does anyone have a rough room sketch of the mansion? Like where is Jessica's room juxtaposed to the window, corridors, etc.
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2010-07-07, 16:19 | Link #13319 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2009
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How can you seal the red if the human side has to accept it ? |
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