Kyoto Animation: Studio discussion, speculation, and whatnot.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Many people naturally would like to see this animation quality and attention to detail applied to more than just "iyashikei slow-paced SoLs". While good animation quality can be appreciated almost anywhere, I can't think of a genre that needs it less than "iyashikei slow-paced SoLs". Whereas animation quality is massively important to an action-packed show.

It's important to consider that one of the reasons they've maintained this quality is because of the style of shows they're doing. Maintaining this perceived level of quality in an action-packed show would almost certainly take a significantly larger animation budget. If you perceive that they're operating within a certain niche, it's also the case that this "niche" has been very good to them. So it isn't necessarily clear that their "branching out" will be rewarded by the market (even if it would meet the approval of some fans of the other genre).

While I can understand the position Warm Mist is subscribing too that basically "it'd be cool" to see what they could do in vastly different styles and genres, I also find it hard to fault their business strategy on the whole. Even within the styles of shows they do, they seem to find lots of opportunities to let their artists experiment and try various things, and that's probably a lot more prudent then the alternative (even if it's less interesting to those who value that sort of variety over the current sort of consistency).

[Last Sinner]

Originally Posted by Warm Mist

I'd love for them to make a steampunk anime, with lots of awesome plane/ship designs and other vaporous things. Or maybe a cyberpunk "grimdark" show even, featuring gargantuan futuristic cities, lasers, and gore.

KyoAni have categorically stated that their current staff would never do mecha or anything like it after they did Full Metal Panic: The Second Raid. KyoAni did not enjoy the difficulty involved with drawings mechs and don't want to do it again. They specialise in people and scenery. I doubt they will shift away from that anytime soon.

[Warm Mist]

Yes, I have seen many people say that Takemoto didn't want to ever do mecha again. But never once I have seen an actual source for those claims, so if you have one, kindly provide it.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

While good animation quality can be appreciated almost anywhere, I can't think of a genre that needs it less than "iyashikei slow-paced SoLs". Whereas animation quality is massively important to an action-packed show.

Subsidiating animation quality to the genre of a show is not healthy. Good animation is always good animation, animation functional to the narrative is welcomed in every genre there can be.
For me, Hyouka wouldn't be such a masterpiece if the animation and visuals didn't tie in with the character development. You can not only hear of, but actually see the changes in the characters over time, thanks to their expressions and body language. That's something I find only Hyouka did well amongst Kyoani shows, and I'm struggling to think of another anime by any studio that manages to do this.
I don't think laid back shows deserve less animation than action packed shows. Every show, no matter what it is, deserves the full effort of the people producing it.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

a lot of foreign (i.e. non-Japanese) anime fans because we tend to focus more on TV shows

Fair point. I still think that if KnK were a 26 episode series, nobody would complain about ufotable not doing lighthearted comedies. This may tie back to what you said above, since a lot of people seem to think good production values are only ok if the show is fantasy/sci-fi action.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Also, some people simply don't like the K-On character design style. Many of those same people are fine with Ghibli character design style.

I'm entirely okay with that. My problem is with people complaining that Kyoani always use the K-On! design for everything. This is simply not true, and there's no two ways about it. That's why I said nobody complains about Ghibli, because it feels like it's just a half-assed argument to attack a studio with no basis.

Now, I'm sure the resemblance between, say, K-On! and Chuunibyou is much more than the resemblance between Chihayafuru and Crasshern Sins, both by MADHOUSE. But that's because of how Kyoani is structured. When you have the same relatively small group of people drawing only one product and adhering to one design, as opposed to freelancing and juggling between 3/4 of the season's productions, their drawing style is inevitably going to be influenced by this design. Traces of AIR and Kanon (and even Munto) can be seen in Haruhi 2006, and this goes right back to Clannad.
I know that they're by the same designer, but Lucky Star and K-On! share a lot of similarities, and K-On! can have some Haruhi-ish and Key-ish touches at times. I've seen expressions very similar to Nichijou in Chuunibyou, and of course, Hyouka is not really THAT far of previous Kyoani designs. Their workforce is very constant, and thus their art can be very inbred at times. But the core designs and artstyles are different for K-On! and every production after it (except Tamako Market for obvious reasons).

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I'm very close to these viewpoints myself. I'd put Hyouka amongst the top 5 or 6 anime shows of the year, and Chuunibyou has been very good. I also like your ideas for how KyoAni could branch out.

I don't think Kyoani will be producing highschool-themed shows forever, not even for much longer. Tamako Market, while being set in contemporary Kyoto, is supposed to take place more at the city (shopping district) than the school, and while all the other setting resemblances can and probably will still be there, it's a change from what they've been doing.
They're branching out in the sense of doing less and less adapations, and more original content. And you can't really not branch out when making original shows, with the director's creative vision being ideally unrestricted. All these CMs they are very lively and seem like whoever animated them enjoying working on them, so that's another factor.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

[ultimate_noob]

Originally Posted by Warm Mist

They're branching out in the sense of doing less and less adapations, and more original content.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

They're still a long way to catch up to PA works Although I would totally be sad if they always do original shows all the time.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

While I can understand the position Warm Mist is subscribing too that basically "it'd be cool" to see what they could do in vastly different styles and genres, I also find it hard to fault their business strategy on the whole. Even within the styles of shows they do, they seem to find lots of opportunities to let their artists experiment and try various things, and that's probably a lot more prudent then the alternative (even if it's less interesting to those who value that sort of variety over the current sort of consistency).

I do not really seeing many people here criticizing their business strategy. Hell if I was a producer at KyoAni moe and school life would be everything. Why break what still works for them?

However, we are not the producers. We are simply the audience.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

It's important to consider that one of the reasons they've maintained this quality is because of the style of shows they're doing. Maintaining this perceived level of quality in an action-packed show would almost certainly take a significantly larger animation budget. If you perceive that they're operating within a certain niche, it's also the case that this "niche" has been very good to them. So it isn't necessarily clear that their "branching out" will be rewarded by the market (even if it would meet the approval of some fans of the other genre).

While I can understand the position Warm Mist is subscribing too that basically "it'd be cool" to see what they could do in vastly different styles and genres, I also find it hard to fault their business strategy on the whole. Even within the styles of shows they do, they seem to find lots of opportunities to let their artists experiment and try various things, and that's probably a lot more prudent then the alternative (even if it's less interesting to those who value that sort of variety over the current sort of consistency).

Should a certain someone had stayed in England and just kept doing what she was already great at? Or should she had challenged herself by taking up a different art form in another country, and possibly expanding her talents in the process?


If KyoAni wants to play it safe, that's their choice. But naturally many people aren't going to applaud that as much as they would a studio that chooses to be truly ambitious and daring.

I also think that if any animation studio should have the financial flexibility to try something unconventional, it's KyoAni. Given its number of hit successes, it's hard to imagine that it couldn't afford a big risk or two.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I also think that if any animation studio should have the financial flexibility to try something unconventional, it's KyoAni. Given its number of hit successes, it's hard to imagine that it couldn't afford a big risk or two.

Again, that's up to the production commitee to decide, not the studio, save if they are part of it (which was the case for Chu2koi).

By no means they are in a financial situation to allow a reckless production, basically like any other studios. They are pretty much hired, and their success profit goes to the production members mainly.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Again, that's up to the production commitee to decide, not the studio, save if they are part of it (which was the case for Chu2koi).

I recall reading somewhere that KyoAni is usually on the production committee for projects that they work on.

By no means they are in a financial situation to allow a reckless production, basically like any other studios.

Well, there's a difference between "reckless" and taking a risk. Reckless would be if KyoAni did something that they knew had no chance whatsoever of selling.

Taking a risk would be KyoAni doing a show with a genre or setting that's unusual for them.

They are pretty much hired, and their success profit goes to the production members mainly.

Wait... isn't KyoAni's next work anime original? So who's hiring KyoAni for that?

[Ithekro]

Pony Canyon it would seem.

[ultimate_noob]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Wait... isn't KyoAni's next work anime original? So who's hiring KyoAni for that?

Its copyrighted by KyoAni and the Usagiyama production committee. KyoAni have the rights to the concept/story. We don't know yet if KyoAni is in the Usagiyama committee.

[Ithekro]

Well I can say one thing that would be awesome, Sunrise D.I.D. teamed with KyoAni for a space ship anime. Let Sunrise D.I.D. handle the CGI and KyoAni everything else.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Should a certain someone had stayed in England and just kept doing what she was already great at? Or should she had challenged herself by taking up a different art form in another country, and possibly expanding her talents in the process?

"She" should do what she feels is best for her without caring about what the "critics" think (because she's responsible for managing the talent she was given, and looking out for her own future). And that's pretty much what she did in the end anyway. Kyoto Animation too.

At least I'm consistent...

(And here I was purposefully trying not to go there...)

Edit: Honestly, though, I really don't feel that invested either way. If they do something I like, I buy it, if not, I don't. So that's my small part in influencing things as far as it goes. The production committee structure puts enough checks and balances that they probably won't ever do any production that will bankrupt them (because they wouldn't invest that much in such a risk anyway). I guess I'm just not the sort of person who worries about a studio doing productions that don't interest me.

[Warm Mist]

I don't really think their perception as "safe" comes from financial worries.

If they just want to play it safe, they would adapt LB! and Rewrite. They would take every moderately popular Kadokawa LN and make it into an anime.

But that's not what happens. Most of their Kadokawa adaptation have been of unpopular franchises at the time of airing. Nobody ever knew that Lucky Star or K-On! existed before Kyoani adapted them. Nichijou was a bit less obscure, but still pretty overlooked. Hyouka was a 10 year-old franchise that nobody on its time cared enough for.

If they come across as always doing the same, I think it has more to do with the directors wanting to do it, and the fans perceiving everything they do as "similar" as a whole just because the setting is the same.
Really, are Nichijou and Hyouka similar? How about any given Key adaptation and Haruhi? I don't think so. The major similarity is the setting, and just maybe the degree of seriousness (I don't agree with this though).

People over at Kyoani really seem to have fun doing the series they do, whether or not they are the same "type" of show. Takemoto chose Hyouka all by himself, because he wanted to do it. It wasn't a Kadokawa call at all.

That's the reason I think Kyoani will not continue doing the "same shows" (not that I think they do that much, anyway) for much longer. They're bound to have people inside the studio with influence that want to do something else, just look at how Tamako Market started in concept. They have enough of a brand name and successes behind their back that they don't need to worry about finances, and they don't. The Hattas have done enough business already to get their studio to where it is today, giving freedom to their directors and animators is the natural thing to do.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Warm Mist

I don't really think their perception as "safe" comes from financial worries.

If they just want to play it safe, they would adapt LB! and Rewrite. They would take every moderately popular Kadokawa LN and make it into an anime.

But that's not what happens. Most of their Kadokawa adaptation have been of unpopular franchises at the time of airing. Nobody ever knew that Lucky Star or K-On! existed before Kyoani adapted them. Nichijou was a bit less obscure, but still pretty overlooked. Hyouka was a 10 year-old franchise that nobody on its time cared enough for.

I think this isn't necessarily so altruistic (or motivated entirely by some sort of artistic integrity). Kyoto Animation's value is defined by the boost they give to the franchise by virtue of just doing what they do. If Kyoto Animation takes a reasonably popular franchise and produces a good adaptation, they've added some value and the investment from the production committee is certainly recouped. But if they can take an obscure franchise and can make it much more significantly successful than it would otherwise be, that's a rather unique value proposition. They become not just an anime adaptation company, but a value engine for creating media mix franchises. It's no surprise, then, that they've launched their own print label now, and that this latest Pony Canyon block features shows they have more direct ownership of. This isn't necessarily driven by a desire to do vastly different kinds of things, but rather to have a bigger financial stake in the franchises they work on. This is another way to have control over your own destiny.

So I'm not so sure that the trend points to them branching off in wildly different artistic directions. Rather, I'd say the trend points to them continue to work on franchises where they can add the most direct value by virtue of their particular strengths. (If anything, I'm thinking we may see Animation DO start doing their own thing more, and possibly other new studios spin-off eventually, and these other studios may pursue other directions. That way Kyoto Animation can be an incubator for both franchises and talent.)

(In general, though, I agree with your comment that I don't find Kyoto Animation shows as similar as some do. To me, they're generally more different than alike.)

[Westlo]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I recall reading somewhere that KyoAni is usually on the production committee for projects that they work on.

Yes but look @ the place they are listed... I mean I can say Jay-Z is an owner of the Brooklyn Nets (and he's sure marketed that way) but facts are he only owns 1%.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Well I can say one thing that would be awesome, Sunrise D.I.D. teamed with KyoAni for a space ship anime. Let Sunrise D.I.D. handle the CGI and KyoAni everything else.

KyoAni already have an inhouse CGI team, if they ever did mecha again it will probably be CGI instead of hand drawn, like nearly everything else these days.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

"She" should do what she feels is best for her without caring about what the "critics" think (because she's responsible for managing the talent she was given, and looking out for her own future).

So people in the position to manage great talent should close themselves off from outside advice entirely? They should only listen to those who agree with them, and disregard different opinions?

Ultimately, I think that a much more balanced and prudent approach is for those managing great talent to carefully consider the different opinions voiced to them on how to use that talent, to hopefully arrive at the best possible choice(s).

Originally Posted by Warm Mist

If they come across as always doing the same, I think it has more to do with the directors wanting to do it, and the fans perceiving everything they do as "similar" as a whole just because the setting is the same.

It's not just the setting. And it's not so much what they do, it's what they don't do.

How many KyoAni shows could be considered Sci-Fi, for example? There's Haruhi and... that's pretty much it.

And you can't tell me that Sci-Fi is a "reckless" genre to get into in the anime world right now. There's loads of sci-fi anime shows over the past year or two, and many of them have sold well.

[Warm Mist]

Them don't doing many genres doesn't mean that they always do the same.

As I said, it would be very awesome if Kyoani started doing things all across the board in terms of genres and settings. But what they do now doesn't strike me as "slight variations of the same idea" like I had seen someone put it somewhere else. The only realy similarity I find between all of their shows is the school setting, and there's not much more beside that. Even the animation and art direction vary a lot between shows, like Nichijou, Hyouka and Chuunibyou.

So I'm not so sure that the trend points to them branching off in wildly different artistic directions

It's not sure, but in my view it will certainly happen with time. The point I was making is that whatever the studio works on doesn't seem to be defined THAT much by business and opportunity, there's freedom for the directors in there. Case in point, Takemoto chosing to adapt Hyouka all by himself, without any need for business calls by Hatta or Kadokawa.

If they always did the same, it'd be because, at a pretty major degree, their directors are content with always doing the same, and not just because Kadokawa/TBS demand them to.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

So people in the position to manage great talent should close themselves off from outside advice entirely? They should only listen to those who agree with them, and disregard different opinions?

Ultimately, I think that a much more balanced and prudent approach is for those managing great talent to carefully consider the different opinions voiced to them on how to use that talent, to hopefully arrive at the best possible choice(s).

Kyoto Animation is ultimately constrained by the bottom line anyway, and that is the great balancing factor. They have hundreds of employees who are now, in a way, depending on the business decisions of the company (of course they can leave and seek other jobs as well). So, in the end, there are opinions they are naturally forced to listen to as part of their desire to grow and thrive as a business: the opinions of those who pay the bills. The voice of the end-customer is a key part of that equation, but that's expressed more through sales than random people opining on the Internet that they think they should be more "artistically diverse" just because. I have more faith in their own ability to navigate the difficult business decisions they face than in our ability to tell them what they're doing wrong. So yes, if I were them, I would disregard certain opinions, including honestly many of those expressed in this thread. The voices they need to listen to most are those of their employees, and those of their customers. Self-appointed Internet pundits? Not so much...

[Westlo]

14,458 *1 Chuunibyou demo Koi ga Shitai! [DVD+BD]: 2012/12/19

Not bad, not bad at all all things considered. They took an unknown property they were publishing, changed it around heaps and nearly sold it at the level of Kanon 2006 back from their "golden age". (Before someone jumps in, it will sell another 2-3k next week)

Kyoto Animation

43459 *7 K-ON!
41038 *8 Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuuutsu
40175 *9 K-ON!!
29146 12 Lucky☆Star
24808 *8 CLANNAD
24346 *6 AIR
19052 *8 Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuuutsu ("New Animation")
19884 *8 CLANNAD AFTER STORY
18399 *8 Kanon 2006
14641 *3 Suzumiya Haruhi-chan to Nyoron☆Churuya-san
14458 *1 Chuunibyou demo Koi ga Shitai!
*9800 *6 Hyouka (11 Volumes in total)
*8917 *6 Full Metal Panic? Fumoffu
*4833 *7 Full Metal Panic! The Second Raid
*2765 13 Nichijou
***** *5 Sora wo Miageru Shoujo no Hitomi ni Utsuru Sekai (Munto TV)

+

164,043 K-ON! Movie
134,910 The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya

[bahamut zero]

Wow, I didn't know Nichijou sold worse than FMP, such a shame for such a great comedy series. Hyouka also somewhat pales in comparison to the rest....