Cultural reactions to sexual portrayals in anime

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by backbone

Does the phrase "You're what you eat" apply to the fanservice fans?

No offense, just asking.

In my view, you could just as easily ask if it applies to the FPS videogame fans.

For both, I would say the answer is generally no, because it's fiction, and most responsible adults (and I'd venture teenagers) know the difference and keep everything in moderation. Otherwise, I tend to think that trying to decide what fiction/media has the potential to "corrupt people" with "dangerous thoughts" is one heck of a slippery slope.

[Reckoner]

The problem I have with most sexualization of younger children (particularly girls) in modern anime is the inherent cynicism in it all. One scene that was referenced earlier in this thread is the bath scene with Shinobu in Nisemonogatari. Sure, Shinobu is a vampire who is old and "adult," but that just obfuscates the fact that what is on screen is the naked body of a young prepubescent girl being depicted in an overtly sexual manner. Personally, there is zero doubt in my mind that this scene is intended to be tantalizing and risk. It's meant to appeal to an audience who would eat it up. Can you blame I or others for thinking that there is a clear and apparent intention to market questionable content?

Of course, this scene has a lot of other things going on as well, but that isn't the point. And certainly I'm not a huge social prude by any means - I personally believe that as long as people aren't getting hurt, they can do whatever they want. However, this does not mean I have to approve of it personally, nor does it mean I have to approve of others liking it either. It also does not mean that viewers who like such sexual content in question are pedophiles/rapists/etc. It would be silly to think that way.

[NorthernFallout]

Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie

It depends on the country. I think Sweden recently banned loli depictions.

While not an outright ban, the definition of what CP is has been a bit chaotic. AKA, fictional children (manga, old art) has been given the same "rights" as real ones, with the punishment that follows.

So yeah, it's a bit complicated and not to say a whole lot of stupid packed into one.

OT: Scenes, or stuff, like has been discussed in the thread makes me very uncomfortable, but I don't go "LOL PEDOS" because of it. I just generally avoid it if I can without making a ruckus. After all, I ascribe to the "It's fiction" principle.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by backbone

Does the phrase "You're what you eat" apply to the fanservice fans?

No offense, just asking.

Pro tip: If you have to prefix or suffix something with "no offense", don't even bother.

And no it really doesn't.

I like to watch a lot of action movies. Does that mean I'm going to blow things up and use firearms in a reckless manner as well as performing unsafe stunts?

I play video games that involve stabbing monsters and other people with sharp objects. I don't kill people irl.

Outside of the mentally unstable and small children, I don't think people are really like anything in the fiction they deal with.

[cyth]

Let me chime in on this as well.

Personally I am not bothered by whatever content anime throws at me, I've seen more disturbing shit in real life to be really offended by anything fictitious. That being said, I don't like blatant fanservice, especially sexual fanservice, because more often than not it goes out of its way to be jarring and in-my-face. This is why I don't like many moe shows and whatnot, not because of the content, but because a supposedly serious story about a vampire monarch coming out and forming her own country sounds too serious for it to feature overly sexualized scenes.

I'm willing to bet that people who automatically reject this type of content don't do it solely because of the content itself, but also because it's poorly placed into the context of the work. If Japan is going to make a show that's all about fanservice, that's completely fine, then we know the nature of the beast. But if Japan tries to make a serious show and then throws in some fanservice just to keep the otaku happy, then they're just giving the soccer mom crowd excuses to hate and rally against it, because they automatically see it as the show's primary selling point--aka they're creeps for selling it to creeps. I won't find it disgusting like they do, but I will certainly think it degrades and detracts from the work's overall theme or goals, and I think that is unacceptable.

[Reckoner]

Even if a primary focus of the series is such fanservice, there is a difference between what I consider to be quality service and service that tears down the integrity of the character itself. A show should not treat its characters like sacks of meat to be oggled over. This is what made a big difference to me between the fanservice in Bakemonogatari compared to Nisemonogatari. Not only was the fanservice so much more cynical, but I started to feel like the fanservice became a defining aspect of several characters moreso than the characters just being themselves. Some of the fanservice of Nadeko and Koyomi's sisters in Nisemonogatari to me was downright disgraceful.

[cyth]

Well, Monogatari is a hard sell to make on that point, because Nadeko's treatment was already pretty disturbing in Bakemonogatari. And before relentlessflame jumps in and closes this topic down for blurring the lines of what's acceptable and what's not (therefore making the topic less discussable), Bakemonogatari is a special case, like Neon Genesis Evangelion, where creators got to abuse and twist its characters from one version to the next. Nisioisin practically said Nisemonogatari was meant to be a private doujin re-imagining of his own work at first. In a show like Vampire Bund, there's only one story and no other parallel universe where authors get to play sandbox with their characters. What you say about integrity is completely spot on, but imagine an anime already treating its characters like sacks of meat from the beginning ... I don't imagine you'd find much to be disturbed over in that same tune.

Although the discussion around edge cases like Evangelion is certainly an interesting one, heh heh.

[Archon_Wing]

I thought.... well, I don't like what Monogatari terms sexy I guess.

To me Monogatari fanservice is terrible most of the time, but I could see how Bake was better in this regards. I could accept Nadeko in a tongue in cheek manner, even if I didn't care for her beyond her cute hat [why did they take away her hat?], though when Nise came along, most of the service was GTFO.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Not only was the fanservice so much more cynical, but I started to feel like the fanservice became a defining aspect of several characters moreso than the characters just being themselves.

Let me just suggest that your finding the fanservice "cynical" is partly because you are so cynical about it in the first place. (I'm not necessarily saying that's wrong -- it is what it is.) You see it as some sort of cold, calculated ploy to artificially insert sex appeal to reach a certain audience, but I highly doubt the authors of the works (or the directors/writers of the adaptations) are so detached. I think it's just one of the elements of the anime/manga/LN/VN culture, and all of the people involved in the industry are part of that culture to some degree. They don't have to think about it in such a distant, detached way because it comes naturally. An author like Nisioisin will write things because he wants to write about it, and people will read it because they find it interesting. And likewise with fanservice in an otherwise serious work: I don't think this is borne from some sort of marketing checklist that says "you won't make <x> sales unless you insert 25% more sex appeal", but rather again people who are often part of this fan culture wanting to have fun with the characters.

I mean, at the end of the day, anime is largely intended to be fun. It bends the traditional rules of propriety and morality because it's obviously fiction. If you become so overly-cynical about everything, I think you'll start attributing dark intentions that were probably never really there in the first place. Now, granted, some of the issues being dealt with in this topic are very sensitive, and to some people it crosses a moral line that they feel should not ever be crossed, whether in fiction or otherwise. I'm not necessarily trying to say that anyone's morality is wrong (and I do believe people should follow their own professed standards), but recognizing that not everyone feels the same way about everything and that bending the rules can be part of anime's appeal, I at least think we shouldn't assume that everything is just a cynical calculated ploy.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

And likewise with fanservice in an otherwise serious work: I don't think this is borne from some sort of marketing checklist that says "you won't make <x> sales unless you insert 25% more sex appeal", but rather again people who are often part of this fan culture wanting to have fun with the characters.

But Azuma said otherwise, and he's always right!

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

But Azuma said otherwise, and he's always right!

Well, you're being a bit disingenuous with that barb. Let's not lead the thread down that rabbit hole.

[totoum]

I swear sometimes reading exchanges between relentlessflame and Reckoner I have the impression I'm assisting to a real life Kirino vs Kuroneko argument (the side effect of this is I start to read Reck's posts with Hanakana's voice in mind which makes things.....interesting.)

I just think there's probably a bit of both going on,some authors do genuinely like it while others do see it as a calculated move.
But while writers might not calculate,I think publishers and editors do.Some concrete examples that come to mind are:

- The manga Sun-Ken Rock: author boichi said the genesis came when he asked his publisher what it'd take for him to get a long serial publication and they told him "give us action + fanservice" and so he obliged. (just to be clear I love that manga)

- When the author of "Bodacious Space Pirates" was asked why he did a novel staring high school girls he said that it was because his publisher told him that highschool girls were popular these days.

Or hell just take this interview with the president of aniplex

TL;DR…

 

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The bolded parts bring out the cynic in me,maybe they don't literally go "you won't make <x> sales unless you insert 25% more sex appeal" at these meetings but I wouldn't surprised if there's discussions close to that.

And while some directors seem to completely be at ease with the fanservice in their shows, like Araki who said he made the show he would have wanted to see when he directed HoTD but others don't seem so comfortable to me, take this quote from the director of Sakurasou

So, the scenes you guys saw featured a lot of panties, but I don't want you guys to get the wrong idea.It's a nice, little school drama and in the end you really see the pain of the characters.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by totoum

I just think there's probably a bit of both going on,some authors do genuinely like it while others do see it as a calculated move.

Agreed. We know for a fact that Okada likes it, so when she puts it into shows that she writes for, I doubt it's a calculated move.

However, there are some anime shows where I'd be inclined to agree with Reckoner.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Agreed. We know for a fact that Okada likes it, so when she puts it into shows that she writes for, I doubt it's a calculated move.

That brings to my mind a couple of examples from HSI that illustrate both sides.

On one hand the animation staff really enjoyed working the bondage scene in episode 3, but on the other hand Okada's original project proposal involved an older main character but producers at PA works rejected it and asked for something with younger girls in part because they thought it would have a higher chance of commercial success.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by totoum

I just think there's probably a bit of both going on,some authors do genuinely like it while others do see it as a calculated move.
But while writers might not calculate,I think publishers and editors do.

[...]

The bolded parts bring out the cynic in me,maybe they don't literally go "you won't make <x> sales unless you insert 25% more sex appeal" at these meetings but I wouldn't surprised if there's discussions close to that.

Well, it's a business, and obviously they consider what's popular and appealing to the target audience when choosing what directions to take things (particularly when faced with an open slate). No one's pretending that they're motivated by some pure unadulterated ideal of some sort of "storytelling purity". It's "pop culture" (even if in this case, it's niche).

But my main point is, even in the quotes you chose to highlight, I don't think it necessarily suggests some sort of underlying disdain for the audience, and cold-hearted manipulation (unless you want to argue that a profit motivation is inherently cold and calculated through-and-through). And they're also aware of the way certain people dismiss things based on prejudice or rushed conclusions. For example, the Sakurasou director (as you quoted) wanting to point out that her work should be judged for more than just the fanservice. You can also see this as a sort of marketing: to show that it's a mixture of (proverbial) "style and substance". It doesn't necessarily mean she's ashamed of those elements, nor with the other authors who ended up choosing characters and elements based on the direction suggested by marketing. Authors can still enjoy writing stories about certain characters/elements even if they were suggested at first by editors/publishers.

In the end, I'm not saying that we shouldn't allow ourselves to be cynical at all... but I think it has to be kept in check. Otherwise, we risk getting really, really bitter about everything and lose sight of the fact that the ultimate goal (even while seeking profit) is to provide enjoyment to people. (Edit: And, in truth, I assume this is the sort of reminder that people in the business probably need from time-to-time as well, if they get too focused on the metrics and lose sight of the underlying goal.)


Edit 2: I realize now that, reading this and going back to the opening post, it may be a bit hard to see the trail that led here. But the connection I'm trying to make goes back to the way people react to things they consider "irredeemable" or "without value". There's a tendency to want to pigeon-hole it and make it stand apart so that it can "stand trial for its crimes", and an implication that all those who employ these elements are complicit. It's basically attributing the whole thing to malice, because of the belief that the content itself is malicious/harmful/irredeemable. And I just don't think that's the underlying intention in a lot of cases.

[Fuyuno]

I sensed this thread contained too many double-standards. I'm not going to emphasize that unless you're asking for it.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Fuyuno

I sensed this thread contained too many double-standards. I'm not going to emphasize that unless you're asking for it.

Well, posting a veiled accusation is not really contributing meaningfully to the discussion. If you want to make an argument, you can actually make one, but just accusing people of double-standards is not itself an argument (and if that's what you want to "emphasize", it's probably better to stay quiet).

[hyl]

The whole discussion seems to be going everywhere and nowhere is because of the opening post. Just because the topic starter saw opinions/comments on Mal about Vampre Bund, he immediately started generalizing that most European people who read and watch mangas and animes share that opinion.

I am not defending that scene, however the main issue the topic starter had was that he could not understand why some Europeans "liked" that scene and i am sure that there are many Europeans out there who don't like such scenes

[Archon_Wing]

So, indeed the topic had started on a bad note, with the topic attacking tens of millions of people for dubious reasons.

If I were a self-righteous bastard, I'd go on about ignorance and lack of perspective. However, I'm only a self-righteous bastard on weekdays, so I won't. But sometimes people come in with the best of intentions and just manage to misplace them.

But it's certainly out of a desire to protect what people hold dearest (and certainly, young children who are considered to be largely innocent and usually have done no wrongs) to be protected and such. And certainly it would be wrong to portray children in a certain sexual light in which they are not aware of completely. But it's doubtful actual children would be harmed due to this. Sometimes this kind of zealousness can hurt the very people it's trying to protect and much more collateral damage. Certainly when it comes to fiction, the degree of severity is reduced but there is still a certain value and relation towards humanity that is brought up.

Besides, the VAs are usually adults.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

The problem I have with most sexualization of younger children (particularly girls) in modern anime is the inherent cynicism in it all. One scene that was referenced earlier in this thread is the bath scene with Shinobu in Nisemonogatari. Sure, Shinobu is a vampire who is old and "adult," but that just obfuscates the fact that what is on screen is the naked body of a young prepubescent girl being depicted in an overtly sexual manner. Personally, there is zero doubt in my mind that this scene is intended to be tantalizing and risk. It's meant to appeal to an audience who would eat it up. Can you blame I or others for thinking that there is a clear and apparent intention to market questionable content?

Of course, this scene has a lot of other things going on as well, but that isn't the point. And certainly I'm not a huge social prude by any means - I personally believe that as long as people aren't getting hurt, they can do whatever they want. However, this does not mean I have to approve of it personally, nor does it mean I have to approve of others liking it either. It also does not mean that viewers who like such sexual content in question are pedophiles/rapists/etc. It would be silly to think that way.

Also this is a good point too even though I always saw Shinobu as an old vampire. I certainly never felt a sexual urge towards her either, but I actually thought Shinobu herself, felt more natural in a way that defined her character. I'm sure it did float someone's boat in that manner, but that just never occured to me.

However...

There's a certain feeling of sexism that comes to it, in general, from your description. Not that I would be clamouring for more shota fanservice (Sup HxH), but yes I also know that many viewers are male. It still does feel a bit too objectifying though.

Personally, of course, I don't have much respect for that franchise much less its stance on gender equality, so I'll just stop here.

Originally Posted by totoum

I have the impression I'm assisting to a real life Kirino vs Kuroneko argument (the side effect of this is I start to read Reck's posts with Hanakana's voice in mind which makes things.....interesting.)

Hmm.... as a Kuroneko and Kanahana fan, I must say. and

[GDiddy]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Being offended is fine. Expecting others to be as offended as you is not.

......

Uh...I"m not really offended. One person's trash is another person's treasure.

We like what we like. Just, as others have said, don't act out on it.