[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch

[Disz]

I thought about something.

DEEN has to ask 07 some of the things they put in their anime,because it's his right?
As does the manga creator,right?

As you know,the manga and anime,like the VN have different conversations some times,but there's always a constant line.

Pretty much something that is said in the anime,manga and VN at the same time and place,something that normally wouldn't have any relevance.

Pretty much like if I were making a Umineko anime,and I decided to shorten up the conversations for the sake of the show,I would STILL HAVE TO ADD THE CLUE 07 TOLD ME TO.

[Renall]

Well, we have to think about that one. Most likely, of course, Battler isn't involved, as it would torpedo his character utterly.

Unless some other explanation could be found. Is it possible that, for example, Battler was never there, and the presence of the message bottles improperly placed him on the island? That would leave you with Eva/Ange problems though, which is a bit silly.

I'm sure there are ways you could find to twist it. The real question is whether that even really makes any sense.

Of course the message bottles being detailed stories written on remarkably short notice given Battler's return and the presence of the storm are questionable too. Whoever wrote them had to know both were coming, which is quite a feat in advance... less so if they were written later, but then who wrote them?

[Erisette]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Sure, even if all the points you said are right, it goes with the assumption that the real truth is a lot more satisfying. But that's precisely why I think Ryukishi's move is a stupid one. How can he decides the real truth is really satisfying? By doing that he's basically claiming his story is good objectively. If any final answer doesn't live up to our expectations of satisfying, then it'll be hard to see Ryukishi as anything else then a writer who's really full of himself.

After all the time he spent insulting readers, it almost feel like he's proclaiming in red Umineko is a good story with satisfying answers and then say So if you don't like it you're a bad reader. So yeah, to me everything points out that Ryukishi is ridiculously arrogant about the worth of his story.

Wait wait wait. I think you are making a big leap here from "Ryukishi thinks EP8's truth is more satisfying than EP7's" to "Ryukishi is objectively claiming that his story is good".

He isn't "saying" that his story is good, he isn't "deciding" that the real truth is very satisfying, he isn't even saying that EP8 is better than EP7, he is just "saying" that the truth revealed in EP8 is more satisfying that the ones revealed in EP7. And of course all this is just if Oliver's theory about EP7 being a test is right.

And if that theory is right, I don't see what is so arrogant in believing that the full answer to a story you have written is more satisfying that the incomplete-and-filled-with-offensive-things one. All I see is the assholery of making things deliberately insulting and ambiguous, and I think I can see Ryukishi giggling while reading the reactions the latests episodes from here, but that is to be expected from an author who said he is eager to see how people react to his work and who writes these things.

[Helmet-kun]

Originally Posted by Renall

Of course the message bottles being detailed stories written on remarkably short notice given Battler's return and the presence of the storm are questionable too. Whoever wrote them had to know both were coming, which is quite a feat in advance... less so if they were written later, but then who wrote them?

Well if Battler were the mastermind *shot*

if Kryie/Rudolph wrote them, they could have been the masterminds the whole time, manipulating people from the shadows. Episode 7 tea party was basically Kyrie throwing a tantrum because she wasted her time with her new uber plan, then went, 'Fuck it.' and shot everyone to vent/carry out her scheme and at least die happy.

Of course, there would still be no point to the random murders.

[Renall]

My current dark horse theory is that Battler wrote the message bottles.

EDIT: After the incident, that is. Of course, this is quite unlikely, but I think it's funny.

[Helmet-kun]

Originally Posted by Renall

My current dark horse theory is that Battler wrote the message bottles.

EDIT: After the incident, that is. Of course, this is quite unlikely, but I think it's funny.

Which is what I thought...

Except I can't seem to figure out why he would right it off as magic and Beato. Would have made sense if he claimed Beato was the baby from 19 years ago and wanted to extract revenge, or some other plausible explaination. But he would have written it as if it were done by a human, no?

Also: Battrice? or Batotrice?

[chounokoe]

Originally Posted by Renall

Unless some other explanation could be found. Is it possible that, for example, Battler was never there, and the presence of the message bottles improperly placed him on the island? That would leave you with Eva/Ange problems though, which is a bit silly.

I'm sure there are ways you could find to twist it. The real question is whether that even really makes any sense.

Of course the message bottles being detailed stories written on remarkably short notice given Battler's return and the presence of the storm are questionable too. Whoever wrote them had to know both were coming, which is quite a feat in advance... less so if they were written later, but then who wrote them?

If you really hurry up, you can write something you know is going to happen, even if it doesn't add up with the actuall events in some points. Given the fact that the author of the message bottle and the Beatrice in Maria's diary seem to be the same person, it is impossible for that person to send the bottle later than midnight the 6th, so considering it has to be written, some parts will always be ficticious.
Ange did check all handwritings didn't she? So we can assume that Yasu was the one who wrote them, but why would she want the mystery to be solved, when she was the culprit remains a mystery and a paradox. So I'm close to ruling her out as the actuall culprit.

I thought about the Battler on the island actually being nothing more than an actor, hired by Rudolph and/or Kyrie to fill in for the missing child, knowing that something was going to happen.
If they were actually planning on the whole 'inheritance game' thing, then it would be logical to bring Battler along, because unless he was attending, they would drop out of succession immediatly.
But unless this is only created due to the kakera all being fictious renditions of the events, it would be impossible for an actor to remember what happened before Rokkenjima and actually care about them.

Then I thought about him being Kyrie's Battler and Asumu's Battler (the one running away from Rudolph) still being on the main land. That would enable Ryukishi to create a 'happy end' in which 'Big Brother Battler' returns, by never being actually on the island.
But that seemed to forced, too.

Him never being on the island was included in my idea, too. But it wouldn't really tie in with what Beatrice said in the end of Episode 4, that he was on the island and he was going to die. Yes the idea of death is still rather vague, with Kanon's existence hanging somewhere inbetween right now, but I can't quite believe the idea of Battler just vanishing into thin air.
And especially if the confession is true, that without Battler attending that year the tragedy would have been smaller, then he must have attented, because the tragedy did happen.

So we have someone knowing that a tragedy is going to occur, even writing at least two full records of it and sending them off to sea, but being unable to do anything against it...

[Renall]

Battler is Beatrice.

The inheritor of the powers of the Endless Witch is the new Endless Witch and takes the title of Beatrice. Battler is the Endless Witch Sorcerer. By all technicalities, he should be BATTLER-Beatrice.

But he isn't, I guess because that would be totally fruity or something.

[Axilios]

Disz, in fact, it is even clearer than this.
Ryukishi explicitely stated that there is a lot of clues in the manga and the anime that you can not see in the original SN, because of the difference of media.
so yes, even if I hate the anime, I can't say that it is useless because of this. And so, it should also be used in order to theorize.
In fact, ironically, the anime is only terrible if you have not played the game.

I quote Ryukishi because he answered himself to your question about the dialogues;

Spoiler for long quote:

This story will be fun to read over again. The anime will start very soon, won’t it? People with certain suspicions might say “Ah!” and clap their hands at certain points in the anime.

“Will people be able to enjoy ‘the fun of speculation’ in the anime and manga versions too?”

Ryukishi: Of course. I have been supervising those very carefully. In Higurashi, there were some problems with presentation, and they were allowed to do as they pleased in certain areas. But this time, I have been checking very carefully to make sure there are ‘no misconceptions in the presentation’ this time, so I think people will be able to significantly enjoy speculation in those as well.

Keiya: In that case, will people who only watch the anime be able to speculate about the series?

Ryukishi: There is an overwhelming difference in the amount of information contained in an anime and the original work, so it will probably be best to play the original as far as ‘the number of hints’ is concerned. But as I just said, mysteries in pictures and mysteries in text focus on foreshadowing in very different ways, so things that you didn’t notice in the original might feel very out of place in the anime. Then when you return to the original and read the same scene again, you might suddenly feel that something is very suspicious in certain places…… The opposite holds true as well, since some places might not leave an impact when on screen, but the text would lead one to wonder “why is this part being described so thoroughly?” So it might be useful to see it through different mediums.

“If you were to assign a difficult to the other formats, would you say that they’re easier or harder than the original?”

Ryukishi: I believe that the primary factors that decide the difficulty of a puzzle are the amount of hints and the amount of information. In that sense, you might be able to say that the original will actually be the easiest. As you know, things need to be condensed to fit in manga or anime versions. You can’t just copy every line word for word and use the same description, so the amount of information naturally shrinks. Because of this, the original will always be easy as far as the quantity of information is concerned. Although there are also more fake leads in the original(laughs). But I wonder if that makes the difficulty equal between the two. Just like Higurashi, I think you should enter into Umineko from the type of media that you are most comfortable with. Then, when you also look at the different formats and see the information in a new light, you might be able to get close to something.

From another, older interview:

K: There might be many different interpretations to Beato's action and her relationship with Battler.

R: Beato is an intriguing character; looking for her motive is also a kind of delight. Maybe it's about time we use chess theory to find out her true motive. Speaking of which, answers will begin to emerge in EP5. But there are more hints here than in Higurashi, so whatever answers EP5 will reveal would probably not be much of a surprise to anyone. Recently I've confirmed the draft for Square Enix's manga version of EP1. I was shocked when I read it, and I couldn't help but think, "How can there be so many hints in here?" Spoiler-type dialogues are everywhere (smile).



So yes. Even if things are seen through different mediums, you should take care of the common points and the dialogues, even if they look "useless". No, in fact, especially if they look useless.

[Helmet-kun]

Originally Posted by chounokoe

So we have someone knowing that a tragedy is going to occur, even writing at least two full records of it and sending them off to sea, but being unable to do anything against it...

...I sense a Rika in the cast. Not Bernkastel, though- she's gone Takano by now.

Originally Posted by Axilios

R:... I was shocked when I read it, and I couldn't help but think, "How can there be so many hints in here?" Spoiler-type dialogues are everywhere (smile).

...Holy shit dude.

And here I was, thinking I should wait to read the manga.

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by chounokoe

So we have someone knowing that a tragedy is going to occur, even writing at least two full records of it and sending them off to sea, but being unable to do anything against it...

But given the nature of having multiple personalities, if you apply a George/Shannon interpretation, or even a Kanon/Jessica as the culprit theory, then it would make sense.

The "Beatrice" persona is aware of the planned massacre, and is unable to do anything about it due to lack of ability, or being under threat from the other party. Therefore, the bottles are prepared beforehand, and are then sent out.

If one accepts Yasu as a party to the crime itself, with at least some prior knowledge via one of their various personalities, then that kind of foresight becomes very possible. The stories themselves would be a kind of mystery for those finding it to solve, and if we apply the idea that the "natural outcome" is Eva's survival, then it becomes logical that both message bottles were prepared beforehand, and then sent out to sea.

Tohya claims to have written the stories from Banquet on up, so we could consider only the first two as being written by the original author. Therefore, Yasu, having no way of knowing anyone would survive the massacre, would send out those bottles in the hopes that someone figures out the true culprit independently.

So, if 1) Yasu is aware beforehand that the murders will take place, that enables her to:

2) Be the one to prepare the message bottles beforehand and the reason for the different stories being

3) Yasu-Beatrice had no way of knowing how the exact circumstances would play out, but the common actions (Letter to Maria, the various actors, the nature of the twilights, and the no survivors at the end) she was fairly certain were planned to occur

4) Therefore, the message bottles would be a kind of insurance that the true nature of the massacre on Rokkenjimma would be sent out into the world beforehand, considering the expectation was that there would be no survivors. Including the possibility that she herself would be a victim.

5) This would also explain why Battler was chosen as the protagonist, due to a personal fixation with his apparently badass character on the part of Yasu-Beatrice. Or something.

Well, thats about as far as I can get with that reasoning at this point.

[Renall]

I can't buy that, if only because even if there were multiple personalities at work, the one that knows what's coming and doesn't want it to happen could do something more substantive to stop it. If you have time to write a bunch of letters and message bottles, you have time to write a note to Genji that says "AM CRAZY; PLANNING TO MURDER EVERYBODY; PUT ME IN JAIL."

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Renall

I can't buy that, if only because even if there were multiple personalities at work, the one that knows what's coming and doesn't want it to happen could do something more substantive to stop it. If you have time to write a bunch of letters and message bottles, you have time to write a note to Genji that says "AM CRAZY; PLANNING TO MURDER EVERYBODY; PUT ME IN JAIL."

But Yasu's afraid of never finding love, right?

Why would s/he betray the expectation of that long desired emotional attachment? Isn't that the whole reason for being obsessed with Battler's promise?

[Renall]

Some things are more important to a person with a conscience, such as not allowing oneself to kill a bunch of people. If one is prioritizing a reunion with one person over the lives of a dozen, one is evil.

[Axilios]

Some things are more important to a person with a conscience, such as not allowing oneself to kill a bunch of people. If one is prioritizing a reunion with one person over the lives of a dozen, one is evil.

Not to mention the fact that the person (s)he is supposed to love will be killed with everyone else, by the way...

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Renall

Some things are more important to a person with a conscience, such as not allowing oneself to kill a bunch of people. If one is prioritizing a reunion with one person over the lives of a dozen, one is evil.

Then let's get into that by applying each of the various Shannon/Beatrice confrontations in the stories:

1) Shannon is in love with George, deeply and completely. Let's say George wants to kill the family en masse in order to recreate the Ushiromiyas in his own image, with Shannon as his wife.

2) We already know that, given Shannon's disposition, she deeply loves George, and would do anything etc etc. Up to, and possibly including, murder in order to stay with him. People do all kinds of crazy, stupid stuff in order to stand by the ones they love. Aiding and abetting, etc.

3) Yasu-Beatrice realizes whats going on, somehow is impeded from taking action in the lead up to the conference itself. Maybe the Shannon personality would be exerting complete dominance in anticipation of George's proposal and finally being with him?

4) In Episode 2, we see various confrontations between Shannon and Beato, where they start being friendly with one another, and then eventually their relationship becomes adversarial due to Shannon's affection for George. Therefore, if Yasu-Beato is indeed also Shannon, and also the author of the Message bottles, then this detail is not coincidental. Regardless of the given motivation, and the actual motivation their relationship clearly becomes adversarial.

5) Beatrice kills Shannon directly in Episode 2. And then kills George. Personally. As it was with Kannon. Unlike the deaths in the chapel and elsewhere where it was simply implied (not including Battler's death), that means the author specifically intended to have Beato be personally responsible for those deaths.

6) If Yasu-Beato is the author, then those scenes are a message, including the death of Kannon, that she intended to overcome those personalities. And may very well have succeeded in doing so.

The main point being this: Regardless of whether or not the Kanon or Shannon personalities condoned mass murder to support their love interest, Yasu-Beatrice was indicating in the stories that she intended to bring an end to them with her own hands during those two nights on Rokkenjimma.

Why Beatrice intended to kill off Shannon and Kannon from the beginning, I don't really know. But if we assume it's because Shannon was herself an accomplice, or Kannon was, then it would only be logical to also assume it was due to being opposed to their plots.

[Disz]

Originally Posted by Axilios

*snip*

Aha!

Now you do it,because I'm too lazy to read 3 different medias!lol jk,I'll start doing it later.

[Helmet-kun]

Originally Posted by Renall

Some things are more important to a person with a conscience, such as not allowing oneself to kill a bunch of people. If one is prioritizing a reunion with one person over the lives of a dozen, one is evil.

Are you calling my precious telephone pole evil?

Actually, You're calling Jessica, Beato- hell, Battler's guilty because he allowed love to get in his way of finding the answer. They aren't evil, they're selfish. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Asmodeus staked them in one of the games.

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Helmet-kun

Are you calling my precious telephone pole evil?

Actually, You're calling Jessica, Beato- hell, Battler's guilty because he allowed love to get in his way of finding the answer. They aren't evil, they're selfish. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Asmodeus staked them in one of the games.

The glasses and fabulous green-with-envy ensemble certainly strike me as evil. But hey, thats just me.

[chounokoe]

Just another thing that came to my mind that makes the puzzle rather incomplete.
Yasutrice said she prepared the cash cards in case somebody prefers hard cash over the rather hard to handle gold, she even handed some of them out to the siblings.

In Episode 3, as it seems, she wasn't there or had no time to tell Eva (or other person X who arrived before Eva) the code, so she wrote it on the wall of the parlour. This is even expanded upon in the anime version, when we see Eva behind Battler, furiously scribbling down the numbers (so it implies that she knew what it was for).

Yet, in Episode 4's Ange timeline, we learn that various cashcards were sent out before the incident on Rokkenjima. There was at least 3 (for Nanjo, Kumasawa and Ange) and they were sent out on October 3rd (according to post stamp). I don't know how possible it would be to fake such a stamp, but assume that we can take it as true.
This raises the question why somebody who is at least in connection to Yasu, would send out those cash cards, when it was implied by Yasu that it was just prepared for those who solved the epitaph.

Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo still appear pretty suspicious to me, especially considering that Genji knew about the solution to the epitaph all along, together with the location of the gold and he was the one placing Yasu back into the Ushiromiya household.
Additionally (if we really assume that manga and anime hold additional hints) he seems awfully calm about his death everytime, especially compared to the dreadfully distraught Kumasawa in Episode 1. He and Kanon/Shannon are the ones who informs people about basically everything going on in Episode 1 and 2. They are almost always the first at a crimescene and in both Episodes Genji survives until very late in the game.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by TehChron

5) Beatrice kills Shannon directly in Episode 2. And then kills George. Personally. As it was with Kannon. Unlike the deaths in the chapel and elsewhere where it was simply implied (not including Battler's death), that means the author specifically intended to have Beato be personally responsible for those deaths.

Let's not forget that, according to the Endroll and the order of sacrifices, Shannon died first (as the 4th twilight) then Gohda (as the 5th) and then George (as the 6th) which is a BIG paradox when we consider what we saw. So whatever really happened in that room is pretty important to the puzzle.