Angel Beats! - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[fertygo]

Originally Posted by dark998

Maeda should be happy. Everything has worked according to the plan so far.

Then its fail for me, ah Good to know Maeda admit his tear-jerking stories feel suck for some people.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by guuchan

Meh, I have said all I wanted to say already about coma-related theories, so I'm not touching that subject anymore. But geez at one of the comments on the blog linked above: "This whole anime is one huge disaster and has definitely signed Maeda’s death plea." Maeda, don't be sad, because a lot other script writers of anime in recent years will join you as NPCs in the afterworld, while you will be one of the protagonists there.

Well I've been calling him a hack for a while now so it's interesting to see others being critical of the guy. I think if Maeda does fall on his sword here it's not entirely his fault but also that of the atmosphere he has to work in. Although I should say that wouldn't remove him from the majority of the blame for less than anticipated profits and/or lack of potential for expanding a franchise. The fact that his interview comments sound like a man trapped into telling the type of story that's expected of him and lacking in confidence to do anything but cross his fingers in hopes of success (although this could just be the typical mannerisms of the Japanese personality interview where the interviewee is borderline gagged into stiff responses by his bosses) sounds all too familiar though. Catering to fans expectations is like the ultimate catch-22 dead end style of writing and that's not even getting into how much of a high stakes gambit it is.....

Any word on how it's being received by the Key audience over in Japan though? I can't imagine it's doing poorly because it's still following the popular Key formula. Guess we'll find out soon enough.

[guuchan]

Even though Maeda Jun is also known as a scenario writer, he's more well known as a composer/lyricist, and I'm definitely a fan of the latter case. The reason why I said that is I have no reason to defend his scripts. Now, for AB, it's an overhyped show. Any (over)hyped show will receive skeptical reviews, and I'm not an exception. I was skeptical about the show till around episode 5. I won't say the show is perfect, because I was complaining about it too for the earlier episodes (that's why I didn't start posting here for AB till recent episodes). Too much goofing around, especially with a 13-episode quota. But is the show a disaster? No. Kaioshin Sama, my comment about being in afterworld and all was being sarcastic to the comment trashing the show. How many times have we seen hyped shows failing big time? As we have talked about before already, Maeda was given the resources, including the 13-episode constraint. It's not his fault that he has to somehow rush it. It's about how he has to rush it. With that many characters, character development was doomed to fail right from the beginning. Even a genius can't do anything about it. What is he supposed to do? "Character of the week?" Then some characters will still be left out anyway. So concentrating on the main ones while having the rest as support cast is the right approach. Could he have spent more time on developing the support cast? Yes he could, I won't deny that. He could show more sides of the supporting cast (even if it's through the gigs) instead of always having a one-punch line. However, he has saved the show with story flow. Nothing feels out of place, nothing feels random. Individual ideas might not be refreshing, but as long as they are executed right, it sells. You can't always come up with new ideas, and in those more than often cases, you have to resort to execution, which AB has done a superb job.

As for what he said in the interview, I look at it this way: it shows how much stress he's under. Anime world is a commercial world after all, one is paid to do what is expected from him. Maeda is a renowned person in the gaming world, where you can throw in lots and lots of lines just for a simple scene. I'm not saying he is free of blame because this is his first anime project, but let's say, comparing to KyoAni's first Key project "AIR" with similar conditions, this is way better. I'm not good at words so I can't exactly describe how it's better, but I know I look forward to next episode every week, I know I have rewatched a few of the episodes multiple times, I know I bother to pay attention to every line said, I know I bother to use my brain for this show (which is why I'm posting in AB threads. Last time I posted intensively for a show here was Kanon). Oh and, despite of what he said, I think victory or defeat will decide in the last 3 episodes. Maeda is good at dropping bombs. One of them got me so badly that I will never forget for the rest of my life, so I have expectation from those episodes, and the grand ending of course. Before that, it is still a bit too early to conclude this show.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by guuchan

Even though Maeda Jun is also known as a scenario writer, he's more well known as a composer/lyricist, and I'm definitely a fan of the latter case. The reason why I said that is I have no reason to defend his scripts. Now, for AB, it's an overhyped show. Any (over)hyped show will receive skeptical reviews, and I'm not an exception. I was skeptical about the show till around episode 5. I won't say the show is perfect, because I was complaining about it too for the earlier episodes (that's why I didn't start posting here for AB till recent episodes). Too much goofing around, especially with a 13-episode quota. But is the show a disaster? No. Kaioshin Sama, my comment about being in afterworld and all was being sarcastic to the comment trashing the show. How many times have we seen hyped shows failing big time? As we have talked about before already, Maeda was given the resources, including the 13-episode constraint. It's not his fault that he has to somehow rush it. It's about how he has to rush it. With that many characters, character development was doomed to fail right from the beginning. Even a genius can't do anything about it. What is he supposed to do? "Character of the week?" Then some characters will still be left out anyway. So concentrating on the main ones while having the rest as support cast is the right approach. Could he have spent more time on developing the support cast? Yes he could, I won't deny that. He could show more sides of the supporting cast (even if it's through the gigs) instead of always having a one-punch line. However, he has saved the show with story flow. Nothing feels out of place, nothing feels random. Individual ideas might not be refreshing, but as long as they are executed right, it sells. You can't always come up with new ideas, and in those more than often cases, you have to resort to execution, which AB has done a superb job.

As for what he said in the interview, I look at it this way: it shows how much stress he's under. Anime world is a commercial world after all, one is paid to do what is expected from him. Maeda is a renowned person in the gaming world, where you can throw in lots and lots of lines just for a simple scene. I'm not saying he is free of blame because this is his first anime project, but let's say, comparing to KyoAni's first Key project "AIR" with similar conditions, this is way better. I'm not good at words so I can't exactly describe how it's better, but I know I look forward to next episode every week, I know I have rewatched a few of the episodes multiple times, I know I bother to pay attention to every line said, I know I bother to use my brain for this show (which is why I'm posting in AB threads. Last time I posted intensively for a show here was Kanon). Oh and, despite of what he said, I think victory or defeat will decide in the last 3 episodes. Maeda is good at dropping bombs. One of them got me so badly that I will never forget for the rest of my life, so I have expectation from those episodes, and the grand ending of course. Before that, it is still a bit too early to conclude this show.

Well to that I would say that a true genius would find a way to make an exceptionally strong and viable work even with limited resources and many constraints put upon him. For example Miguel de Cervantes conceived and wrote Don Quixote while in prison of all places as did Machiavelli when he wrote the letter that eventually became The Prince. I don't think I need to tell anyone that both books are regarded as masterpieces by literary critics and scholars and their authors as Titans of the pen and paper. Any other man can only be expected to do the best that they can when faced with hardship and hope that it all works out. Jun Maeda comes across as a person vying toward the latter goal in his interview, a man hoping to salvage what he can so that at least his fans remain pleased. I could ask what kind of genius has one and only one style of writing (appeal to emotion) and form of thematic expression (redemption and ultimate satisfaction through suffering where it can easily be argued there need not be any but for the author's casual whim) that they are willing to explore over the course of a decades worth of work, but I won't pursue the topic unless it's picked up for obvious reasons.

Also if you ask me the story flow and execution of Angel Beats still comes across as an absolute unconstrained mess even if he managed to get the basis of a story idea, theme and feel across eventually. Angel Beats so far is a work barely held together by an amalgamation of all too familiar fallbacks and concepts that have been worn by the man for the past decade. It's a work with little to spark the imagination in a setting that could very well be ripe for intrigue if the author were willing (able?) to explore new themes, ideas, perspectives, concepts and devices. The fact that it's still the ideas, themes and feelings etc that he always tries to get across being worked again here means that I should at least expect that much that you have described in your post out of this show. Though I would stop far far short of the amount of praise you are giving to it. Basically it's like this; If getting "meets expectations" put on the back of the collectors's box is the level of achievement the Angel Beats team is aiming for then there's not much left for me to say about it nor anything to make me want to recommend it to any of my friends.

We can certainly expect some emo-bombs getting dropped. We can expect a feel good happy ending. We can expect a little more slapstick comedy along the way as well I'm sure. Angel Beats by Jun Maeda......

[mangatron]

Heh, as a big fan of death metal girl, this episode was nice but it was tough to see her go. I don't know how many times I'll be quoting my Luminous Arc 2 Int FAQ but "I feel like that manga character who fell in love with a girl, didn't confess and cried, watching as she heads into the setting sun with another man..."

Funny how my only post in this sub forum is for my favorite girl, which this probably means this'll be the last time I pop in here

[risingstar3110]

Well i will say Maeda is a genius only if he surpass my expectation, and he did in episode 1, packed everything of a great... no a masterpiece by my standard... into one single episode. It's getting weaker as the show process through.

A good director maybe, but won't praise him more than that

[guuchan]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Well to that I would say that a true genius would find a way to make an exceptionally strong and viable work even with limited resources and many constraints put upon him. For example Miguel de Cervantes conceived and wrote Don Quixote while in prison of all places as did Machiavelli when he wrote the letter that eventually became The Prince. I don't think I need to tell anyone that both books are regarded as masterpieces by literary critics and scholars and their authors as Titans of the pen and paper. Any other man can only be expected to do the best that they can when faced with hardship and hope that it all works out. Jun Maeda comes across as a person vying toward the latter goal in his interview, a man hoping to salvage what he can so that at least his fans remain pleased. I could ask what kind of genius has one and only one style of writing (appeal to emotion) and form of thematic expression (redemption and ultimate satisfaction through suffering where it can easily be argued there need not be any but for the author's casual whim) that they are willing to explore over the course of a decades worth of work, but I won't pursue the topic unless it's picked up for obvious reasons.

Ouch, being compared to Miguel de Cervantes and Don Quixote now, aren't we highly demanded audiences?

Also if you ask me the story flow and execution of Angel Beats still comes across as an absolute unconstrained mess even if he managed to get the basis of a story idea, theme and feel across eventually. Angel Beats so far is a work barely held together by an amalgamation of all too familiar fallbacks and concepts that have been worn by the man for the past decade. It's a work with little to spark the imagination in a setting that could very well be ripe for intrigue if the author were willing (able?) to explore new themes, ideas, perspectives, concepts and devices. The fact that it's still the ideas, themes and feelings etc that he always tries to get across being worked again here means that I should at least expect that much that you have described in your post out of this show. Though I would stop far far short of the amount of praise you are giving to it. Basically it's like this; If getting "meets expectations" put on the back of the collectors's box is the level of achievement the Angel Beats team is aiming for then there's not much left for me to say about it nor anything to make me want to recommend it to any of my friends.

Here's the thing: AB itself in general is already kind of an new idea, theme-wise. As for individual stories, well, the setting of the AB world is characters who have experienced unfortunes when they were alive. We see people saying "oh, paralyzed girl again; girl with some terminal disease confined to the bed again." How many types of realistic (and presentable) unfortunes are there that haven't been utilized before already? Getting hit by an UFO? If you can come up with one (I'm not even asking one for each character), please name it by all means. That's why I said in the more-than-often cases when old ideas have to be reused, as long as the execution works, it's all good.

We can certainly expect some emo-bombs getting dropped. We can expect a feel good happy ending. We can expect a little more slapstick comedy along the way as well I'm sure. Angel Beats by Jun Maeda......

Emo-bomb... ow. I would suggest you to drop watching anime altogether because "emo-bomb" is one of the best things you can get these days from anime, which is full of mindless ecchiness/fanboys' wild fantasies/yuri or yaoi fanservice.

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

Well i will say Maeda is a genius only if he surpass my expectation, and he did in episode 1, packed everything of a great... no a masterpiece by my standard... into one single episode. It's getting weaker as the show process through.

A good director maybe, but won't praise him more than that

I just want him to be recognized as a genius of music. You can read up this post I wrote before about his latest soundtrack if you're interested. As a scenario/script writer, he has ups and downs, but I don't doubt his ability in stirring up emotions, just like his music. Episode 9, yeah?

[boredandlazy]

I can't believe some people are saying that Angel Beats will be "the End of Maeda"... Seriously? Do you resent him that much?
I can understand that Angel Beats is a divisive show in some respects, but to say something as strong as that shows an obvious bias against him.
I fully agree that for every brilliant moment in this series there is a questionable one to match it, but it's a mile away from being a bad show.

Anyway regardless of what your opinion is of the show it's going to be a success. The OP/ED single sold over 80,000 copies in it's first week and I expect the BD/DVD sales to be strong as well. I severly doubt Maeda will be "Falling on his Sword".

[Marcus H.]

And Angel Beats is supposed to be an EXPERIMENTAL project.

So practically, we can't judge how good a blacksmith is by looking at a work he admits is an experiment.

[spawnofthejudge]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

Well i will say Maeda is a genius only if he surpass my expectation, and he did in episode 1, packed everything of a great... no a masterpiece by my standard... into one single episode. It's getting weaker as the show process through.

A good director maybe, but won't praise him more than that

He's not, nor has ever been, the director. He's the writer. There's a difference. (If it's the director you want to discuss, you want Seiji Kishi)

[Marvx360x]

I liked the episode. It wasn't as good as episode 9 but pretty good overal.

[DJ Trouble]

Originally Posted by guuchan

Getting hit by an UFO?

No, that's been done before.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by guuchan

Here's the thing: AB itself in general is already kind of an new idea, theme-wise. As for individual stories, well, the setting of the AB world is characters who have experienced unfortunes when they were alive. We see people saying "oh, paralyzed girl again; girl with some terminal disease confined to the bed again." How many types of realistic (and presentable) unfortunes are there that haven't been utilized before already? Getting hit by an UFO? If you can come up with one (I'm not even asking one for each character), please name it by all means. That's why I said in the more-than-often cases when old ideas have to be reused, as long as the execution works, it's all good.

A challenge? Let' see =P

How's about... falling off a cliff...
Or construction fault such as bridge or building collapse...
Or drown when swim in the river...
Was pushed down the train line (by a running away thief perhaps) while waiting in the train station....
Toxic gases released due to earthquake...

Or we can combine all, Yui was crippled due to a building collapse when she was small. She stayed in her home most of the time. During her first trip to the ocean, an earthquake occur and she fell off her ship and drown in the ocean....


It's not hard to find an alternative way of dying. The character can already be depressed (Like Hinata or Yuri) before was killed by accident. Or was trapped so long that he struggled between life and death and found his end is unjustified

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

And Angel Beats is supposed to be an EXPERIMENTAL project.

So practically, we can't judge how good a blacksmith is by looking at a work he admits is an experiment.

Agreed. It's Maeda's first time (to my knowledge) writing a script solely to be used in an anime. The guy's renowned for visual novel scripts, aside from his musical ability. And you can't use the same writing style you use to write novels to write anime. Why do you think novel authors rarely write the scripts for the animation of their own novels? Because they're uncomfortable writing for an anime.
Which is why I still repect Jun Maeda for taking on the challenge of writing Angel Beats!. It might not have the same impact that his games have had, but it doesn't change the fact that it definitely shows he has the ability to write a good anime plot. He just needs practice. There's no such thing as an "instant genius." Becoming skilled in an area of practice takes time.
Which is why I vote success for Angel Beats!, so that he doesn't drop the idea of writing original anime plots.

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

A challenge? Let' see =P

How's about... falling off a cliff...
Or construction fault such as bridge or building collapse...
Or drown when swim in the river...
Was pushed down the train line (by a running away thief perhaps) while waiting in the train station....
Toxic gases released due to earthquake...

Or we can combine all, Yui was crippled due to a building collapse when she was small. She stayed in her home most of the time. During her first trip to the ocean, an earthquake occur and she fell off her ship and drown in the ocean....


It's not hard to find an alternative way of dying. The character can already be depressed (Like Hinata or Yuri) before was killed by accident. Or was trapped so long that he struggled between life and death and found his end is unjustified

While it's all good fun to come up with creative backstories for characters, don't forget that this is an anime where we are supposed to be able to relate to the characters. The whole point behind any Key story is to feel for the characters. Whether or not Angel Beats! succeeds in this is opinionative (it worked for me) is regardless. The point is, it's a lot harder to relate to someone who has had a completely ridiculous life up until the point we meet them.
Why do you think cheesy villains always have such overdone backstories? We're not supposed to be able to relate to someone who's parents we're killed in a war, then as they were stumbling across a war-torn No Man's Land, they got caught up in an unexploded mine, crippling them and blinding them in one eye. Then when all hope was lost, an old docter finds and saves them, and using technology, gives them prosthetic limbs and a bad-ass eyepatch. They are now grateful to the old man, but quickly grow enraged at him when they realize the old docter only kept them alive to experiment with mutative material, and really has no care for their lives. They then kill the old docter one day when he gives them the slightest bit of free reign, and escape the docter's laboratory as it explodes behind them. Doning a black, ragged cape, they then swear their hatred for humanity, and set out to destroy it.
It's ridiculous, overdone and definitely creative. Does it help us relate to them? Understand them, maybe, but not relate to them. We can't relate to people with experiences we've never have, and never will have.
What we can relate to is someone who becomes paralyzed after being hit by a truck. What we can relate to is someone who was the circumstantial victim of their parents having a vicious fight. What we can relate to is someone who spirals into despair and starts taking drugs, which may or may not have affected his ability to perceive a truck driving at him. What we can relate to is someone who has a strong soul, and can pick himself up off of rock bottom to make life better for himself and others. These people are human, with human fears, desires and deaths. Angel Beats! may have ridiculous battles, over-the-edge-physics-defying scenes, and many fantasy elements, but it's characters are human. So we can understand them and their problems.
Well, that's how I took it, at least.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by spawnofthejudge

He's not, nor has ever been, the director. He's the writer. There's a difference. (If it's the director you want to discuss, you want Seiji Kishi)

Furthermore, the direction has much more impact than the script considering the media (whereas in a VN, the narration is counterbalancing things here and there).
You can have 2 situations set with the same lines and so forth, the way how it is conveyed (momentum, selection of BGM, duration allocated to it etc) can turn a scene into something grand or totally mediocre.

And since we are talking about someone who has the tendency to be longwinded (not as much as Nasu or Ryukishi, mind you), there has to be a lot of cut, like he mentioned in an interview. Even if he tailored the story as an anime series from the start, I'm not really convinced that AB could be unfolded completely here, especially how the direction went batshit insane times to times.

[risingstar3110]

@Raiza Sunozaki: You can't relate to these? I thought they are quite close to real life....

falling off a cliff...
Or construction fault such as bridge or building collapse...
Or drown when swim in the river...
Was pushed down the train line (by a running away thief perhaps) while waiting in the train station....
Toxic gases released due to earthquake...

Except most of the train victims probably are considered as suicide victims... But yeah drowning or building collapsing are quite commonly occurred.

[Haak]

Actually, I can already think of three of those examples that have happened in anime. Welcome to the NHK, Cross Game and Tokyo Magnitude 8.0.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

@Raiza Sunozaki: You can't relate to these? I thought they are quite close to real life....


Except most of the train victims probably are considered as suicide victims... But yeah drowning or building collapsing are quite commonly occurred.

Well, I was more pointing out the combination of all of them... eh heh heh...
You're right, they're all reasonable ways for a normal human to die. But if there's one thing Maeda likes more than love between a mother and a child, it's the most cheesy sob-story he can come up with. The possibilities you mentioned could all be turned into sob-stories, but it require adding extra characters and to mourn for them and worry about them, as well as plot extensions.
I'm not saying it's impossible; I'm not even saying it's hard. It just requires more effort. And if Jun is as pressed for time as his interview makes him out to be, then he might not have the time to worry about adding the extra effort to come up with a creative sob-story.
Oh, and falling from a cliff has already been used, sorta...

[New/Old]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

A challenge? Let' see =P

How's about... falling off a cliff...
Or construction fault such as bridge or building collapse...
Or drown when swim in the river...
Was pushed down the train line (by a running away thief perhaps) while waiting in the train station....
Toxic gases released due to earthquake...

Or we can combine all, Yui was crippled due to a building collapse when she was small. She stayed in her home most of the time. During her first trip to the ocean, an earthquake occur and she fell off her ship and drown in the ocean....


It's not hard to find an alternative way of dying. The character can already be depressed (Like Hinata or Yuri) before was killed by accident. Or was trapped so long that he struggled between life and death and found his end is unjustified

Are you... trying to suggest something that hasn't been done before? If so, I've seen each one already.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by New/Old

Are you... trying to suggest something that hasn't been done before? If so, I've seen each one already.

Not really. RisingStar's saying that there are more creative ways to kill someone than vehicle accidents. With the exception of the train one, I've seen all of them, or some variation of them, as well. Doesn't make them any less creative.