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FDW · 2012-09-30, 01:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyuu

Do me a favor and count the number of Division I football teams.

And there are many Division I teams with stadiums even larger than NFL ones. (With many of them playing in much smaller metro areas to boot)

Dilla · 2012-09-30, 02:47

Only like 15-20 teams of those 119 teams get any relevant TV time regularly. Please don't compare the college scene to the NFL. College games have the students themselves along with school pride (and cheaper tickets). There are plenty of school fans that turn there noses up at pro level sports. If a team sucks in the NFL, only select few fanbases will stick with it and attend games through futility, creating TV blackouts. Hell, San Diego make the playoffs often, but they struggle to generate enough attendance to avoid blackouts. The only thing more teams will do would stretch the unchanging talent pool and decrease competitive among the league. The bad teams (probably the newer teams) would remain bad since players that should have no business playing in the NFL are being drafted (at least 440 extras players every year) to reach the quota of bodies on the field.

FDW · 2012-09-30, 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dilla

Only like 15-20 teams of those 119 teams get any relevant TV time regularly. Please don't compare the college scene to the NFL. College games have the students themselves along with school pride (and cheaper tickets). If a team sucks in the NFL, only select few fanbases will stick with it and attend games through futility, creating TV blackouts. The only thing more teams will do would stretch the unchanging talent pool and decrease competitive among the league. The bad teams (probably the newer teams) would remain bad.

Actually I would argue otherwise, you have to remember that NFL expanded from 12 to 26 franchises over the course of the 1960's, and the 1960's is generally remembered as a watershed decade in pro-football. And the only the only real "long-term" bad teams that emerged out of the period were New Orleans and Atlanta, and even they managed to win something. I also disagree with you about the talent pool, as I think that are many players out there with the potential to play in league, but never got a proper shot. And if anything, advancements in medicine that allow players to play longer will serve to expand the talent pool further.

creb · 2012-09-30, 02:58

I don't think the NFL should be expanding any time soon. If anything, they should be shrinking instead.

Saturation is great at the college level. It's a whole different atmosphere, where even though there's a hundred schools, with only maybe five schools a year having any realistic shot of playing for the national championship, far more people still cheer on their teams than any fanbase of any team in the NFL. My Badgers have a hard time just being relevant in the B10, year in and year out, but we still get 80k+ people sitting in the stands for every home game, plus the hordes of people sitting outside. The entire town of Madison turns red on Saturdays, and good luck finding any parking. The record doesn't even really matter.

The NFL is a different product. It's my opinion that as disparaging as the term "fair weather fan" may be, it's an accurate label for much of NFL fandom, which is probably driven by the high cost of game attendance. In that situation, winning becomes a lot more important to keeping fans interested and money flowing.

LA wants a team? Well, I think they should have an opportunity to get one. But, not by expansion. The NFL should impose a rule on a team owner. If your team misses the playoffs for more than X amount of years (let's go with 10), your team no longer is a part of the NFL, and any potential owner who wants to sit at the big table of the NFL could then join and replace any owners who aren't doing their damnedest to actually compete. Maybe institute a minor league for teams that are unable to cut it in the NFL (or waiting for a chance to join...ie: best team in minors gets the first free spot in the NFL). If minor league baseball can make it, I have to believe minor league football could as well.

Extreme? Perhaps. But, I can't be the only one who gets bored of the NFL when it's always the same teams on the top and bottom. Sure, things do move. Eventually. But should it really take a decade or two for a team to go from a down swing to an upswing? There's a ton of money in the NFL. If a current owner can't take the heat, I'm sure there's plenty of millionaires who'd jump at the chance to play a much headier version of fantasy football. Or even taking the Green Bay model a step further and some sort of coop among fans to create their own team. Having a fire lit under an owner's ass can only be a good thing for the viewers, in my opinion.

If Kickstarter can funnel so much money into what I cynically view as mostly vaporware, I boggle at the potential for a different model for how we approach professional sports.

As for my shrinking comment...I'm sure statistical analysis could figure out what a sweet spot would be in # of teams that could exist without diluting the available talent pool, to help assure greater chances of parity throughout the league.

Dilla · 2012-09-30, 03:12

I agree with a lot of what you said, but:

Quote:

Originally Posted by creb

LA wants a team? Well, I think they should have an opportunity to get one. But, not by expansion. The NFL should impose a rule on a team owner. If your team misses the playoffs for more than X amount of years (let's go with 10), your team no longer is a part of the NFL, and any potential owner who wants to sit at the big table of the NFL could then join and replace any owners who aren't doing their damnedest to actually compete. Maybe institute a minor league for teams that are unable to cut it in the NFL (or waiting for a chance to join...ie: best team in minors gets the first free spot in the NFL). If minor league baseball can make it, I have to believe minor league football could as well.

Extreme? Perhaps. But, I can't be the only one who gets bored of the NFL when it's always the same teams on the top and bottom. Sure, things do move. Eventually. But should it really take a decade or two for a team to go from a down swing to an upswing? There's a ton of money in the NFL. If a current owner can't take the heat, I'm sure there's plenty of millionaires who'd jump at the chance to play a much headier version of fantasy football. Having a fire lit under an owner's ass can only be a good thing for the viewers, in my opinion.

As for my shrinking comment...I'm sure statistical analysis could figure out what a sweet spot would be in # of teams that could exist without diluting the available talent pool, to help assure greater chances of parity throughout the league.

Yeah, that's not gonna happen and inplausible. No one is going to commit tax dollars to build NFL approved stadiums in random cities if they can't guarantee a long, long existence in the NFL. Your minor league theory is flawed in that MLB doesn't demote teams to the minor league.

FDW · 2012-09-30, 03:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by creb

snip

Personally I think otherwise. And as for the same teams at the top and bottom of the NFL? That's hardly the case. While The AFC has been dominated by the Patriots, Steelers and Colts for the past decade, That hasn't been the case historically, with Pittsburgh and New England having spent most of their history as mediocre before 1970 and 1995 respectively, and The Colts had a long period in wilderness between the late 70's and Peyton Mannings arrival. And the NFC sent a different team to the Super Bowl for 10 consecutive seasons between 2001-10. So you can hardly say there isn't parity in the league, especially given the tools of the draft (that funnel the most talented player to the worst teams) and the salary cap and reveue sharing (Which puts teams on a more financial ground). And besides, there are fewer teams per person now than there was in 1970.

Kyuu · 2012-09-30, 03:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by creb

Extreme? Perhaps. But, I can't be the only one who gets bored of the NFL when it's always the same teams on the top and bottom.

You must be a Browns fan.

FDW · 2012-09-30, 03:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyuu

You must be a Browns fan.

I'd peg him as a Bills fan.

creb · 2012-09-30, 04:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dilla

I agree with a lot of what you said, but:
Yeah, that's not gonna happen and inplausible. No one is going to commit tax dollars to build NFL approved stadiums in random cities if they can't guarantee a long, long existence in the NFL. Your minor league theory is flawed in that MLB doesn't demote teams to the minor league.

I was using the NFL as an example, but in an increasingly connected world where so much of the money is made outside of fans physically attending games, I believe there are better ways to do pro sports, regardless of the sport.

Turning professional sports on their head from an old boy's club to another market-driven enterprise could be an exciting prospect and shake things up.

Obviously, it's not going to happen, but it's fun to speculate. I honestly believe that if pro sports were run in a more cut-throat fashion that things like stadiums and fields would be pocket change and a minor concern.

I also think in fifty years, we'll be doing things very differently at the pro level, as I feel like pro sports of all stripes haven't even begun to realize the true monetary potential at their fingertips as they still put far too much weight on a system that was far more relevant when people thought locally, rather than globally. /shrug

FDW · 2012-09-30, 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by creb

I was using the NFL as an example, but in an increasingly connected world where so much of the money is made outside of fans physically attending games, I believe there are better ways to do pro sports, regardless of the sport.

Turning professional sports on their head from an old boy's club to another market-driven enterprise could be an exciting prospect and shake things up.

Obviously, it's not going to happen, but it's fun to speculate. I honestly believe that if pro sports were run in a more cut-throat fashion that things like stadiums and fields would be pocket change and a minor concern.

I also think in fifty years, we'll be doing things very differently at the pro level, as I feel like pro sports of all stripes haven't even begun to realize the true monetary potential at their fingertips as they still put far too much weight on a system that was far more relevant when people thought locally, rather than globally. /shrug

The problem is creb, is that the NFL likes it's Socialism, because it's gotten so much good stuff from it. And what you're promoting is essentially a promotion and a relegation system for teams, something that is completely and against every tradition in American sport.

GDB · 2012-09-30, 10:32

Also, do you realize how many fanbases you'd kill just by having their teams no longer part of the NFL if they were doing poorly? They don't even want to move existing teams that barely support it now out of fear of the backlash it would cause. There's no quicker way to diminish the worth of your product than to alienate your market base.

FDW · 2012-09-30, 12:17

Watching the Niners-Jets game. No score yet, but The Niners just got a first down.

GDB · 2012-09-30, 12:46

Haha, the announcers in the NE/BUF game just ripped the replacement reps. Had an interception where the two were fighting for it, but defense definitely had possession, and they were like, "There was once a time when that would've been called simultaneous possession."

Drob_QB7 · 2012-09-30, 15:04

Don't thibk there is anydoubt Houston is the best team in the NFL

FDW · 2012-09-30, 15:15

And The Niners shut-out The Jets. I'm now watching The Raiders-Broncos game while grilling up my steak.

GDB · 2012-09-30, 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by FDW

And The Niners shut-out The Jets. I'm now watching The Raiders-Broncos game while grilling up my steak.

Yeah... Jets are in for a rough ride this season. They should've at least put up a FG, but now the Tebow chants shall begin.

Dilla · 2012-09-30, 15:23

I can't believe that just happened. This hurts more than the Giants blowout.

I might cry.

Kyuu · 2012-09-30, 15:31

Buffalo. Kings of Imploding.

FDW · 2012-09-30, 16:35

Raiders down 10-6 at the half.

RWBladewing · 2012-09-30, 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyuu

Buffalo. Kings of Imploding.

I'll say. I actually feel really angry about this one because they played really strong in the first half and almost fooled me into thinking they had a chance. The way their run defense just completely opened up in the second half would have been unbelievable if it were anyone besides the Bills. I honestly think they're terrified of their own division, the Pats especially; most of their greatest blowouts and chokes seem to be against division opponents (see the opener against the Jets for another example).

2012-09-30, 02:58	Link #5404
creb Hiding Under Your Bed Join Date: May 2008	I don't think the NFL should be expanding any time soon. If anything, they should be shrinking instead. Saturation is great at the college level. It's a whole different atmosphere, where even though there's a hundred schools, with only maybe five schools a year having any realistic shot of playing for the national championship, far more people still cheer on their teams than any fanbase of any team in the NFL. My Badgers have a hard time just being relevant in the B10, year in and year out, but we still get 80k+ people sitting in the stands for every home game, plus the hordes of people sitting outside. The entire town of Madison turns red on Saturdays, and good luck finding any parking. The record doesn't even really matter. The NFL is a different product. It's my opinion that as disparaging as the term "fair weather fan" may be, it's an accurate label for much of NFL fandom, which is probably driven by the high cost of game attendance. In that situation, winning becomes a lot more important to keeping fans interested and money flowing. LA wants a team? Well, I think they should have an opportunity to get one. But, not by expansion. The NFL should impose a rule on a team owner. If your team misses the playoffs for more than X amount of years (let's go with 10), your team no longer is a part of the NFL, and any potential owner who wants to sit at the big table of the NFL could then join and replace any owners who aren't doing their damnedest to actually compete. Maybe institute a minor league for teams that are unable to cut it in the NFL (or waiting for a chance to join...ie: best team in minors gets the first free spot in the NFL). If minor league baseball can make it, I have to believe minor league football could as well. Extreme? Perhaps. But, I can't be the only one who gets bored of the NFL when it's always the same teams on the top and bottom. Sure, things do move. Eventually. But should it really take a decade or two for a team to go from a down swing to an upswing? There's a ton of money in the NFL. If a current owner can't take the heat, I'm sure there's plenty of millionaires who'd jump at the chance to play a much headier version of fantasy football. Or even taking the Green Bay model a step further and some sort of coop among fans to create their own team. Having a fire lit under an owner's ass can only be a good thing for the viewers, in my opinion. If Kickstarter can funnel so much money into what I cynically view as mostly vaporware, I boggle at the potential for a different model for how we approach professional sports. As for my shrinking comment...I'm sure statistical analysis could figure out what a sweet spot would be in # of teams that could exist without diluting the available talent pool, to help assure greater chances of parity throughout the league. __________________ http://myanimelist.net/animelist/creb http://myanimelist.net/mangalist/creb It feels like years since they've been updated, btw. Also, cake. Last edited by creb; 2012-09-30 at 03:09.

2012-09-30, 15:31	Link #5418
Kyuu =^^= Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: 42° 10' N (Latitude) 87° 33' W (Longitude) Age: 45	Buffalo. Kings of Imploding. __________________ Japanese Mahjong Group \| Currently Watching List \| Click on this - I dare you.

2012-09-30, 02:47	Link #5402
Dilla 'Sup Ballers Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: North Carolina, USA Age: 34	Only like 15-20 teams of those 119 teams get any relevant TV time regularly. Please don't compare the college scene to the NFL. College games have the students themselves along with school pride (and cheaper tickets). There are plenty of school fans that turn there noses up at pro level sports. If a team sucks in the NFL, only select few fanbases will stick with it and attend games through futility, creating TV blackouts. Hell, San Diego make the playoffs often, but they struggle to generate enough attendance to avoid blackouts. The only thing more teams will do would stretch the unchanging talent pool and decrease competitive among the league. The bad teams (probably the newer teams) would remain bad since players that should have no business playing in the NFL are being drafted (at least 440 extras players every year) to reach the quota of bodies on the field.

2012-09-30, 10:32	Link #5411
GDB Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Age: 38	Also, do you realize how many fanbases you'd kill just by having their teams no longer part of the NFL if they were doing poorly? They don't even want to move existing teams that barely support it now out of fear of the backlash it would cause. There's no quicker way to diminish the worth of your product than to alienate your market base.

2012-09-30, 12:17	Link #5412
FDW Zettai Ryouiki Lover Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: The Bay Area	Watching the Niners-Jets game. No score yet, but The Niners just got a first down.

2012-09-30, 12:46	Link #5413
GDB Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Age: 38	Haha, the announcers in the NE/BUF game just ripped the replacement reps. Had an interception where the two were fighting for it, but defense definitely had possession, and they were like, "There was once a time when that would've been called simultaneous possession."

2012-09-30, 15:04	Link #5414
Drob_QB7 AYE SIR! Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Houston	Don't thibk there is anydoubt Houston is the best team in the NFL

2012-09-30, 15:15	Link #5415
FDW Zettai Ryouiki Lover Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: The Bay Area	And The Niners shut-out The Jets. I'm now watching The Raiders-Broncos game while grilling up my steak.

2012-09-30, 15:23	Link #5417
Dilla 'Sup Ballers Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: North Carolina, USA Age: 34	I can't believe that just happened. This hurts more than the Giants blowout. I might cry.

2012-09-30, 16:35	Link #5419
FDW Zettai Ryouiki Lover Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: The Bay Area	Raiders down 10-6 at the half.