[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

So that's Erika's "Shkannon" Solution....Sorry Erika-Chan, Objection:

All People can only use their own Names

Actually no. The Blue and Red Truth, as well as Erika's final deduction are these:

The person in the closet is somebody else who is not Kanon.
Everybody can only use their own name.
The Rescuer was Kanon.
You were rescued at a time when Kanon could not have escaped the guesthouse.
A physical body from the next room escaped through the window of the guesthouse ad then entered your room while claiming to be Kanon.
Then, after abandoning the name Kanon, that person hid in the closet and returned to their original self.
Of course everybody can only use their own names, but if "that someone" was also Kanon then there is no problem.
The Red Truth you used was using the body count as a manifesto while I was involuntarily using the name count.

So yes, manga Erika is a lot smarter than VN Erika

Knox's 1st: The Culprit must be someone who appeared early in the series.

This is actually addressed in passing by mentioning several inspirations for both Yasu as a writer and Umineko itself.
You have to consider that even Yasu is just a construct for a young person who is so lost in fantasy that names have taken on a whole new meaning. Even "Yasu" is only a fraction of who that person is and is technically equal to Shannon, Kanon, Beatrice or Lion, they are all facets and possibilities of what s/he can become.

This is actually an often addressed problem in mystery writing when it comes to the question of how to use the rule of introducing a character.
Looking at several famous murder mysteries the culprit has always been more than just what was introduced about him or her in the beginning. It is not about introducing every facet of who a person is right from the start, that has to be part of the puzzle solving according to my taste, it is much more important to give the room to attribute the several ideas that were introduced throughout the story to one specific character who would be the culprit. In Umineko's case these are the stories about a witch that lives on the island constantly, her being a trapped existence, a promise with Battler, the talk of a hidden child, the Beatrice that Rosa met, they all have to fall into place.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

So that's Erika's "Shkannon" Solution....Sorry Erika-Chan, Objection:

All People can only use their own Names

Well, the canon solution of Umineko doesn't go against this. It just says that a person owned multiple names. In fact all the names owned by the culprit are:
Lion Ushiromiya
Yasuda Sayo
Shannon
Yasu
Kanon
Yoshiya
Beatrice
and, if you want, Clair vauxof Bernard (though it's possible Yasu never used that name during her life and it's just name Bern gave her)

After all, even if you go for a solution different for ShKanon, no one would question that Shannon also own the name of Sayo and Kanon the name of Yoshiya.

So owning multiple names is okay.

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

Knox's 1st: The Culprit must be someone who appeared early in the series.

Uhm... maybe I've misunderstood you but Yasu showed up early in the series. Yasu's just Shannon's old nick and Shannon appeared early in the series. The fact many refer to her as Yasu is just because to make thing simpler 'Shannon' is the name used to refer to her maid persona.

If I'm not wrong though Ryukishi didn't even bother using the name 'Yasu' much in the interview, referring to her, more often than not as simply Shannon, even when he was explaining how she killed herself and George in Ep 2.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by haguruma

Actually no. The Blue and Red Truth, as well as Erika's final deduction are these:

The person in the closet is somebody else who is not Kanon.
Everybody can only use their own name.
The Rescuer was Kanon.
You were rescued at a time when Kanon could not have escaped the guesthouse.
A physical body from the next room escaped through the window of the guesthouse ad then entered your room while claiming to be Kanon.
Then, after abandoning the name Kanon, that person hid in the closet and returned to their original self.
Of course everybody can only use their own names, but if "that someone" was also Kanon then there is no problem.
The Red Truth you used was using the body count as a manifesto while I was involuntarily using the name count.

So yes, manga Erika is a lot smarter than VN Erika

**Grunts at Erika's Red/Blue Statements.** She really did do a fantastic job of covering all corners for her Shkanon explanation. However, I still have Red Truths that Erika didn't defeat.

I raise an objection to Erika's theory that a "Person X made the claim that it was Kanon, and that it could make that claim even if Person X wasn't really Kanon."

They definitely wouldn't mistake any different person for Kanon!(Red Truth regarding Kanon's appearance in Ep2)

The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!
'
A different person cannot claim his name!

The Ep.2 Red Truth is especially painful to Erika's theory, it's not even possible to suppose a theory that Shannon dressed up as Kanon and it could be passed off.(Of course it couldn't, I mean look at Shannon's double D's. George would know if that shit's fake ).

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

**Grunts at Erika's Red/Blue Statements.** She really did do a fantastic job of covering all corners for her Shkanon explanation. However, I still have Red Truths that Erika didn't defeat.

I raise an objection to Erika's theory that a "Person X made the claim that it was Kanon, and that it could make that claim even if Person X wasn't really Kanon."

They definitely wouldn't mistake any different person for Kanon!(Red Truth regarding Kanon's appearance in Ep2)

The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!
'
A different person cannot claim his name!

The Ep.2 Red Truth is especially painful to Erika's theory, it's not even possible to suppose a theory that Shannon dressed up as Kanon and it could be passed off.(Of course it couldn't, I mean look at Shannon's double D's. George would know if that shit's fake ).

None of this excludes the possibility, that someone completely unrelated to "the servant Kanon", coincidently has "Kanon" as a 2nd name.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

None of this excludes the possibility, that someone completely unrelated to "the servant Kanon", coincidently has "Kanon" as a 2nd name.

**The Chaos Sorcerer's Blue Truth cuts through my red and I grunted**. True, if someone other than 'Kanon' has the name 'Kanon' as an alias, or even as a middle name, it's possible. That person isn't claiming Servant Kanon's name and might be a totally different person altogether.

[AuraTwilight]

I mean look at Shannon's double D's. George would know if that shit's fake

No he wouldn't. George is a loser who's never groped any boob.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

I have a new theory surrounding Kanon.

Kanon said his real name is 'Yoshiya'. It's possible that Battler recognized Kanon as Kanon, then when he went into the closet he became 'Yoshiya'. This satisfies that only Kanon can claim his name, and yet that 'Kanon' cannot exist in the Closet.

[erneiz_hyde]

Not exactly new. That or something along that line was pretty much the consensus of it back then.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

I also realized something else.

If what Bernkastel showed in game's 7 and 8 is true, then we know which games reflect Rokkenjima Prime

Games 3 and 4 is what truly occurred on Rokkenjima Prime

[GuestSpeaker]

I personally doubt that we would get shown what happened in prime in such detail. Sure, hints here and there, and general gists, but to outright show us over four separate games what happened seems like it doesn't mesh with the point Ryu was trying to make.

[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

I also realized something else.

If what Bernkastel showed in game's 7 and 8 is true, then we know which games reflect Rokkenjima Prime

Games 3 and 4 is what truly occurred on Rokkenjima Prime

Impossible. Battler does not survive Game 3 and Eva does not survive Game 4. Neither gameboard can be considered an accurate representation of what truly happened on Rokkenjima.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Impossible. Battler does not survive Game 3 and Eva does not survive Game 4. Neither gameboard can be considered an accurate representation of what truly happened on Rokkenjima.

But in Game 3, Eva escapes via Kuwadorian and the murders of Natsuhi and Krauss are implicted. As Will said "The obvious culprit wields a mutable blade." And in the 4th game, the "tests" are referenced, as well as the 6 people killed in the parlor.

Of course, I will acknowledge that the Setting of the 4th game Parlor massacre, and Bernkastel's scenario differ. But if we take the meta-physical to imply what occurred in the real world, then it's possible.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

But in Game 3, Eva escapes via Kuwadorian and the murders of Natsuhi and Krauss are implicted. As Will said "The obvious culprit wields a mutable blade." And in the 4th game, the "tests" are referenced, as well as the 6 people killed in the parlor.

Of course, I will acknowledge that the Setting of the 4th game Parlor massacre, and Bernkastel's scenario differ. But if we take the meta-physical to imply what occurred in the real world, then it's possible.

It would be interesting if the games written by Battler/Toya (Ep 3, 4, 5 & 6) all contained bits of what Battler remembered and therefore all contained bits of truth.
But at best the truth they contain can solely be the one Battler witnessed which isn't much.

[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

But in Game 3, Eva escapes via Kuwadorian and the murders of Natsuhi and Krauss are implicted. As Will said "The obvious culprit wields a mutable blade." And in the 4th game, the "tests" are referenced, as well as the 6 people killed in the parlor.

Of course, I will acknowledge that the Setting of the 4th game Parlor massacre, and Bernkastel's scenario differ. But if we take the meta-physical to imply what occurred in the real world, then it's possible.

Doesn't matter. The earlier red you made is invalid.

Games 3 and 4 is what truly occurred on Rokkenjima Prime

This statement cannot be made in red, because it is impossible for it to be true. Either Game 3 is what truly happened on Rokkenjima Prime, or Game 4 is. They can't both be true, because they are two sequences of possible events that explicitly and completely contradict on almost every data point. Hell, Battler doesn't survive EITHER game, he explodes or gets shot. Neither of which happened to him in Rokkenjima Prime.

So not only are they both incompatible with each other, but both of them are incompatible with the two actual facts we have about the outcome of the 1986 Family Conference. You are wrong.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Doesn't matter. The earlier red you made is invalid.

Games 3 and 4 is what truly occurred on Rokkenjima Prime

This statement cannot be made in red, because it is impossible for it to be true. Either Game 3 is what truly happened on Rokkenjima Prime, or Game 4 is. They can't both be true, because they are two sequences of possible events that explicitly and completely contradict on almost every data point. Hell, Battler doesn't survive EITHER game, he explodes or gets shot. Neither of which happened to him in Rokkenjima Prime.

So not only are they both incompatible with each other, but both of them are incompatible with the two actual facts we have about the outcome of the 1986 Family Conference. You are wrong.

I propose a theory, this time in blue.

We know that Ushiromiya Battler AKA Toya survived what occurred during 1986. Yet, none of the games implies this fact.

Also Bernkastel declared Battler's death with the Red Truth

Maybe all of Battler's "deaths" on the gameboard reflect the concept that Battler lost his memories, and so the "being" known as Ushiromiya Battler is dead. But Hachijo Toya is still alive.

That way, it wouldn't contradict that the information given about games 3 and 4 could possibly reveal the truth or be the real two days of Rokkenjima Prime.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

I propose a theory, this time in blue.

We know that Ushiromiya Battler AKA Toya survived what occurred during 1986. Yet, none of the games implies this fact.

There may be a couple of things which could, or which at least support that option. Eva was known to have survived in Prime, if Prime exists, because she went outside the bomb radius in time, which means that surviving by that method was possible. EP 7 tells us about the submarine bay and so forth and the tunnels which people could use. As well as that, after Beatrice's stories had been found, we knew there was something special about the forgeries written by Hachijou Tohya (that they became the episodes after Beato's), and that it was enough that Ange wanted to investigate. Then, there's the matter of the content of the Tohya-written episodes, which can be seen as Tohya working through his issues.

Speaking of the use of red for Rokkenjima Prime in general, I'm not sure that red can even apply to (what is supposed to be the) "real world". Can't remember exactly what canon says about that, though.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

Speaking of the use of red for Rokkenjima Prime in general, I'm not sure that red can even apply to (what is supposed to be the) "real world". Can't remember exactly what canon says about that, though.

Well, the manga gives it as follows:
There are two kinds of Red Truth.
There is one which is true for the individual gameboard it applies to, it concerns circumstances of death, state of crime scenes, and alibis (the examples given are the deaths of people in EP3, the number of master keys in EP2 or Kanon's death as the 9th victim in EP4).
The other one is that which is shared among each gameboard, this entails character traits, personality and complete background of the the characters, as well as the number of people on the island. This truth is doubtlessly true even outside the catbox. Examples given are, the existence of a Beatrice in Kuwadorian in 1967, that there are no more than 18 people on the island, both from EP3, and that Natsuhi was sitting all alone in the rose garden from EP5.
Also, neither of these Red Truths can state the existence of the witch's illusion.

EDIT:
Pertaining to Kanon was killed in this room, I found an interesting way to see it on the Japanese wiki.
If we see Kanon as Jessica's furniture, or rather the furniture that was created due to the wish and for the purpose of Jessica, then Jessica's death cancel's out the existence of said furniture.
EP6 introduced the two requirements for the death of furniture. One is the destruction of the vessel and the other is the death of the master.
Connecting this we could connect the murder of Jessica to a form of "killing the master". So the murder of Jessica is implicitly also the murder of Kanon.

[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

I propose a theory, this time in blue.

We know that Ushiromiya Battler AKA Toya survived what occurred during 1986. Yet, none of the games implies this fact.

Also Bernkastel declared Battler's death with the Red Truth

Maybe all of Battler's "deaths" on the gameboard reflect the concept that Battler lost his memories, and so the "being" known as Ushiromiya Battler is dead. But Hachijo Toya is still alive.

That way, it wouldn't contradict that the information given about games 3 and 4 could possibly reveal the truth or be the real two days of Rokkenjima Prime.

In one Gameboard, he's shot, and in the other, he's taken out by the bomb, according to the reds. This doesn't really allow for the metaphorical death Bernkastel is referring to.

Even then, though, the two gameboards conflict too much for them both to be true. At best you can argue that Game 3 is true.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

I just thought of a beautiful theory to challenge Erika with. Yes, once more I'm taking on the Closed Guest Room.

**I snapped my fingers and brought everyone to the Witches table to debate**

Furudo Erika killed the 5 victims of the First Twilight, during that time Kanon
was already outside of the next room over.

Kanon witnessed Erika committing murder. At this time, Battler was in the Guest Room and he set up the trap in the bathroom.

Kanon rescued Battler who escaped and Kanon took his place inside the closet before Erika set foot in the room.

In other words

Ushiromiya Battler was NEVER inside the Guest room when Erika was inside of it after having the room sealed for the first time.

This way There's no Logic Error.

Allow me to rephrase more simply

The Timing. The timing from when Erika was committing the murders, to where Battler specifically was at the time as well as Kanon. The key to tricking the Closed Room isn't the chain. It's the timing of Erika's presence in the room and until the chain is re-set by Erika!

When Erika re-sets the chain, that room is guaranteed to be a perfect closed room. HOWEVER, that guarantee doesn't apply to 'any time before Erika sets foot in the room'! after having the room sealed for the first time.

[GreyZone]

^a lot of your red truths need "...after having the room sealed for the first time" attached to them.