[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[AuraTwilight]

The way the sentence is phrased, it's more meaning "I won't be ignorant AGAIN"

[unsuspectingvisitor]

Seriously though i think he knows the truth before. Before he got an amnesia and

become Toya.Maybe that sentence was just a hint or something.

Anyways, I am done with Ep5 YaY! I understood nearly all of it.

[AuraTwilight]

*facepalm*

[ErenselTheJester]

Calm down, Aura. She's just a newbie.

[Captain Bluebeard]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I don't think he knew the truth beforehand; he's saying he won't become ignorant again. He protects the illusion of the witch because it seems that the truth changed his perspective on things. My personal theory is that he learned that Beatrice isn't the culprit, but is taking the blame for someone else, and he wants to respect her wishes.

Battler definitely didn't know the truth beforehand. He promises not to lose the truth he has found. And by 'again', I think he means

Spoiler for MAJOR SPOILER ABOUT UMINEKO'S ANSWER:

his promise, which is the heart behind the crimes, and partially his fault for forgetting. So when he says 'I won't lose the answer AGAIN' I think it would be safe to see this as reffering to his promise

The reason he decides to protect the Illusion of The Witch, in my opinion, is that he now understands Beato and why she did whatever she did. Moreover, he has finally found out about the sin that led to this tragedy (see EP4) and this is his way of making up to Beato about it.

Then again, it all comes together once you've read EP7...

[RandomAvatarFan]

I'm really liking this Episode so far, and I've only gotten through maybe about 2-3 chapters.

I feel bad for Beato. The aftermath of EP 4 is sad. Bern and Lambda are nothing but trolling Battler and Beato both. And talk about what Ronove said "There is no love." The way the first thing you see of the gameboard is the TIPS window with the 1st twilight murders unceremoniously labeled. The game board feels really different, and the Meta-World drama is getting really intense. Half of the first twilight victims were never 1st twilight victims before.

When it came to Natsuhi and Kinzo,

Spoiler for Natshuhi and Kinzo:

I had a feeling that she may have been talking to herself in EP1

But I didn't know any of the circumstances behind Kinzo's death. The way Bern denied Beato in red was quite jarring too.

So far I've only heard one new piece, but I really like it. I'm excited to hear some more of the new stuff as the chapter progresses.

Bern's new sprites are kind of freaking me out, something I think Ryukishi was going for. When a character shows no emotion throughout the entire series and then all of a sudden she has like four troll faces, it's pretty scary.
I'm not too thrilled with some of Battler's new sprites though.

All in all, this chapter seems pretty cool, so far. I'm still near the beginning, but it's really intense. I can't wait to see what else End and the rest of Chiru has in store.

[Witch of Uncertainty]

Episode 5 has a lot of incredible music. Especially the ending song, imo.
And I loved everything about that episode.

[Drifloon]

Episode 5 is unquestionably my favourite episode ever. I don't have a single thing I don't like about it.

[RandomAvatarFan]

It's getting even more intense. I just got through Dlanor's "Die the Death!" scene. The music was definitely awesome. I'm loving it. Lambda and Bern's premise change is really noticeable, which in turn changes the way I look at the rules of Beato's game.

I am confused at one part, and that's during the fight with Dlanor/Erika and Beato. What is supposed to be happening? Isn't Beato out for the count in the Meta-World and the Illusion of Beato just a piece? The things Beato said at the end of the battle confused me that way.
"There was no way Battler could see Beato in this higher level world." Why would that matter?

[alarmadadna hadi]

It's getting even more intense. I just got through Dlanor's "Die the Death!" scene. The music was definitely awesome. I'm loving it. Lambda and Bern's premise change is really noticeable, which in turn changes the way I look at the rules of Beato's game.

Umi has many heart-pump-up scenes, but this one in general, and the first time beato and erika confront each other in particular, made the strongest impression on me, pretty much revived the little shounen manga fanboy in me . I also like dlanor's character and abilities as a representation of literary device, made the setting even more meta than it already was.

I am confused at one part, and that's during the fight with Dlanor/Erika and Beato. What is supposed to be happening? Isn't Beato out for the count in the Meta-World and the Illusion of Beato just a piece? The things Beato said at the end of the battle confused me that way.
"There was no way Battler could see Beato in this higher level world." Why would that matter?

I'm not sure what you refer to here. Do you mean how the "illusion of beato" joined in the meta battle? Because that would be similar to evarice being "pulled" to the meta debate in ep3, a fancy way of inter-relating the layers. That particular debate sort of mixed the meta and fantasy layers. (Although you could argue something similar happened before, like in ep2, when meta-battler loses hope concurrently with piece battler).

If I remember, that last quote was talking about piece-battler, as opposed to "fantasy" and meta-battler.

[Toku]

Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan

I am confused at one part, and that's during the fight with Dlanor/Erika and Beato. What is supposed to be happening? Isn't Beato out for the count in the Meta-World and the Illusion of Beato just a piece? The things Beato said at the end of the battle confused me that way.
"There was no way Battler could see Beato in this higher level world." Why would that matter?

This Beato is just a Piece. And what that means, is that she's on a lower plane than Meta!Beatrice. After all, Meta!Beatrice can't do anything anymore. So it's obviously not her.

Basically, the "higher plane" that their fight takes place in, is not the Meta-World. They're still on the game board. It just happens to be a slightly higher plane than what these pieces are usually on.

If you're standing on a lower plane, you can't see whatever's happening on the plane above you. That only makes sense. However, since Lambda is controlling Piece!Battler right now, she made him point at where Piece!Beato would have been standing. And then she brought him to that higher plane as well.

Of course, Piece!Beato is also being controlled by Lambda. So everything she does and thinks, is nothing more than what she's been ordered to do and think. That's why Piece!Beato in EP5 is one of the few instances where there is a Beato that I don't necessarily consider to be Beato at all.

[RandomAvatarFan]

Okay, I kind of get it. I was a little confused about it because Bern said she was controlling Battler, but it in a game like this it makes sense that the pieces are shared.

Yeah, the Beato of EP5's gameboard is really on the same level as Kinzo on this gameboard. She doesn't have an affect on it.

But regardless, that battle was amazing.

[AuraTwilight]

Basically, what you have to get used to in Chiru is that there's more 'layers' than just the Gameboard and the Meta-World. It's a spectrum, not a coin.

[RandomAvatarFan]

I just finished reading through the ??? tea party. I must admit, I was feeling pretty broken after I read the main episode, but Battler's awesome gold sword gave me the confidence to keep on reading.

It still feels the way Higurashi Kai planned out. The first episode gave out one specific answer and then stuffed a red herring down your throat. I hope the rest are a bit more blunt with the real truth (If there's such thing as a "real and unique" truth.)

I'll admit, I haven't read a lot in the mystery genre, and as of now, I'm missing out on a lot of the classics that were mentioned within the story. I dp wonder though if any story ended the way this Episode did, where the detective coming up with a truth gave the story a Bad End.

It was surprising to see that Lambdadelta showed Kinzo's death in the very beginning and also revealed about a phone call. There are only two males on the island whose birth is in mystery - Battler's and Kanon's. I think Kanon is too young (I think it was stated he was three years younger than Shannon and then Shannon was 16. ), and Battler was denied being the culprit in red back in EP3. If it was Kanon, that may be the reason why he constantly pushed Jessica away though.

The Court of Illusions was absolutely amazing. The music was awesome, and it had me staying up another hour later. Honestly since the moment Dlanor appeared, I was glued to the screen. The witches weren't kidding when they said they were almost at the climax. The entire court was a great spectacle.

I'll let the episode soak for a while before I move on to Dawn, but wow... EP5 was amazing.

[Drifloon]

Just to warn you, the series kind of goes in a very different direction after E5. There isn't any real 'murder mystery' in E6-8 and the structure of each of the last three episodes are very different both to each other and to the previous five. Just warning you not to expect a second E5 from this, because E6 is really very different, though it does have its awesome parts.

[Witch of Uncertainty]

Okay, so there's one thing I don't get (I replayed through the game with the PS3 version).

Erika could not solve the "knock" mystery that was presented (when the letter and the ring was given to Battler). How could she have won? When Evatrice presented a similar problem (more trivial if you ask me) regarding why Kyrie, Rudolph and Hideyoshi went to the mansion, he was about to lose because he could not figure it out?

Why did they just let that one slide for her? As long as the detective can not solve ONE mystery, the witch wins, right?

[AuraTwilight]

Because Lambda, Bern, and Erika are cheating assholes.

[SonozakiUshiromiya]

@Witch of Uncertainty
Bern/Erika cheating happens a lot through Ep 5. For example, remember when Battler tried to declare Natsuhi's innocence and Dlanor shut him down, since as the detective, he couldn't use supernatural shenanigans as evidence? See all the reds about the mansion Bern gave Erika. Honestly, there were arguements Beatrice could have used but didn't(excluding calling them out on their cheating), like how Erika could have observed the hallway through the parlor perfectly despite drinking AND carrying on a conversation when it was possible for someone(Natsuhi) for her to 'slip past' her notice when she just talking with Nanjo. Not to mention sleeping habits(In fact, she might have been napping while with Nanjo, so I guess that could explain why she could argue that.). All the same, Bern/Lambda are noted by Virgilia to be doing things Beatrice 'could, but would not' do. Maybe as long as you pinpoint a culprit, all other things like 'What happend to Maria's rose?' are irrelevant, as per the rules. Beatrice wanted Battler to solve all of her mysteries. Bern/Lambda are just trolling along.

EDIT: Aannndd AuraTwilight just made my point in less verbaige.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Witch of Uncertainty

Okay, so there's one thing I don't get (I replayed through the game with the PS3 version).

Erika could not solve the "knock" mystery that was presented (when the letter and the ring was given to Battler). How could she have won? When Evatrice presented a similar problem (more trivial if you ask me) regarding why Kyrie, Rudolph and Hideyoshi went to the mansion, he was about to lose because he could not figure it out?

Why did they just let that one slide for her? As long as the detective can not solve ONE mystery, the witch wins, right?

It had nothing to do with the murders... or maybe it was solved offscreen....

Well i never saw someone cheating beside in the EP5 "???"-TP. Everything else makes sense if you think about it long enough. For example the "seal" in EP6 for the blue truth about the window,

Spoiler for EP6:

was possible, because "blue truth" was the main weapon of the human side. Witches don't have to use blue truth. They just have to THINK of a solution and thats it, just as Beato later did.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Witch of Uncertainty

Okay, so there's one thing I don't get (I replayed through the game with the PS3 version).

Erika could not solve the "knock" mystery that was presented (when the letter and the ring was given to Battler). How could she have won? When Evatrice presented a similar problem (more trivial if you ask me) regarding why Kyrie, Rudolph and Hideyoshi went to the mansion, he was about to lose because he could not figure it out?

Why did they just let that one slide for her? As long as the detective can not solve ONE mystery, the witch wins, right?

I've the feeling the court merely wanted a 'solution' that more or less worked, not the truth so they made concessions.
Also Lambda stopped representing the witch side during the trial, handing the job to piece-Beato, who this time had no idea what was going on during the game and so couldn't use red truth.
Lambda didn't really try to make the witch side win, remembering Erika didn't solve all the riddles or countering her blue with some red but conceded her the victory without a blink... though it's possible that Lambda was doing it to push Battler to react since as soon as he 'came back' she sided with him (though she might also have had fun trolling Beato and Natsuhi...).

Bern's cheating and she knows it though, no point in discussing about it... and Erika, being her piece, takes advantage of this.

Originally Posted by GreyZone

It had nothing to do with the murders... or maybe it was solved offscreen....

Well, the rules we were given until then said the human side had to solve all the riddles presented. That riddle was presented so it had to be solved.

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Well i never saw someone cheating beside in the EP5 "???"-TP. Everything else makes sense if you think about it long enough. For example the "seal" in EP6 for the blue truth about the window,

Spoiler for EP6:

was possible, because "blue truth" was the main weapon of the human side. Witches don't have to use blue truth. They just have to THINK of a solution and thats it, just as Beato later did.

Not really. Beato used blue truth in Ep 4 & 5.
Blue truth is just something you use to propone a theory.
Sealing blue truth means you are forbidden from making theories about something. In a fashion is even worse than being given a red truth because you can work your way through a red truth while like that you can't discuss a thing.