Character Discussion - Shirley

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Ten-Go

Father's death instead of happy school days, strange "geass" stuff and ongoing war instead of funny and cute situations (possibly with giant speaking cats involved), bullet instead of love and joy - I just feel sorry for that girl, it looks like someone has mistaken and implementend her in the wrong universe... I wonder why they did it all with her when they had tons of ready-to-die characters like IJA-designed Kyoshiro Tohdoh. Yes, contrast is a form of art, good commercial move, interesting add to the story, but killing her is cruel. Maybe script writers are against swimming or something...

I recall a discussion like this some time ago, where someone said that Shirley's character was not genre savvy. And I agree, Shirley would've done quite well, and probably would've been much happier in a high school shojo romance.

Originally Posted by Rei.K

Characters are meant to be tools serving the plot anyway.
As a fan of the character, I was really sad Shirley died, but that doesn't mean she can't keep on living as a character. This thread is enough of a proof.
Aerith from FF7 anyone ? It's been more than 10 years and people are still talking about her. Death means nothing for a great character

Agreed 110% Indeed, Shirley may be dead in the show, but we can keep her spirit alive by remembering her and keeping her thread alive. As a wise man once said, "A person dies only when he/she is forgotten."

As for Aeris, I never played FFVII, so I can't comment.

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

It has nothing to do with misogyny. She was a tragic heroine, that's all.

A tragic heroine is one thing, but what they did to Shirley was horribly brutal. It's like the entire point of her existence was to suffer. All right, I may be exaggerating a little, but they REALLY didn't need to kill her after everything else she had been through.

Shirley is the Hans Moleman of Code Geass, only it's not funny.

[Rei.K]

Originally Posted by Arbitres

And people are still talking about Aerith because of all the remakes of FF7... Advent Children, Crisis Core.. some anime adaptions/OVA's too.

I can't agree.
FF7 was released in 1997. The first spinoff - FF7 Advent Children - came out in 2005. By that time, the characters had already grown on people, especially fans. Numerous fanclubs and fanfictions also existed by then. Spinoffs had nothing to do with it.
I'd say the spinoffs were born BECAUSE the characters were so popular, actually.

Originally Posted by azul120

Personally I thought Aerith was overrated as a character, just because she hadn't connected in that same kind of way.

I guess it's a matter of opinions then ... just like people can't understand why we like Shirley so much. I bet you could probably state a lot of reasons to prove them wrong, just like any Aerith fan could.
... I don't mean to start a debate though. I merely used Aerith as an example to outline her similarities to Shirley when it comes to fandom.

[Lost Cause]

I think DragoZERO hit the nail on the head by saying;"Her innocence is what made it so tragic"! Exactly! When Shirley was killed I was like "OMG NO, WHY?!!" She wasn't involved with either side of the fight, nor a collaborator. Like any war innocents do die, and with Shirley they (the producers) hammered that point home!
When a combatant dies it's understandable. But when an innocent dies it's a shock!

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

I recall a discussion like this some time ago, where someone said that Shirley's character was not genre savvy. And I agree, Shirley would've done quite well, and probably would've been much happier in a high school shojo romance.

Yep. Precisely speaking, she was Wrong Genre Savvy.

[Arbitres]

But some fans didn't evil take an interest in FF7 until AC... Excuse me if I didn't explain. Today hasn't been a good day for me~

While Shirley was one of the most innocent characters in the entire show, she did almost kill Lelouch. She also became a bit twisted at Mao's mind dissection -- but she remained the carefree, clumsy Ashford girl. (...Milly is carefree, but she is not clumsy. Though I'm expecting gravity to work on her any time now.)

Though that was because of her memory wipe, yes. She became sort of a 'blank slate' after Lelouch geassed her to forget about him and the events... But she fell in love with the same person, got her memories back, and she still loved him. Even with that knowledge of what he did.

Also, she had her head in the clouds because of the note she found about 'Lelouch being Zero'. I guess it was somewhat good no one else found it. Though she died in a way I would've preferred to see Lelouch die in. (The atmosphere actually would've fitted him perfectly. Anyone else notice how dramatic the room is? It looked clandestine angelic.)

It's too bad though, but the story must go on. Even with Shirley's death she helped R2 along in such a way that marked it as unique... No I'm not talking about Zero Requiem. That was uhh... unique, too though.

Also, sticking Shirley into code geass is like sticking her in Texhnolyze or Strait Jacket... Not good for Shirley. School Days being equally bad... CLANNAD is the best for her? xD

[Rei.K]

Originally Posted by Arbitres

But some fans didn't evil take an interest in FF7 until AC... Excuse me if I didn't explain.

Oh yeah, some probably did. Possibly because they were too young at the time FF7 came out. Then again, AC was mostly oriented toward old fans (see the message at the start of the movie). It was a pledge to those who had come to like FF7's universe and characters... I can't imagine how someone who didn't play FF7 first could possibly enjoy AC, since EVERYTHING in the movie is somehow related to specific events or concepts from the original game.
Oh well, better late than never I guess. Still I hope you get my point : How popular a character can become doesn't necessarily relate to spinoffs. At least, in my opinion.


Getting back on topic, I also agree about the fact Shirley's innocence probably played a lot in making her death tragic - almost unbearable, actually.
Like Lost Cause said, it was so unfair since she had no part in the conflict ... Euphemia's death was pretty sad, but she was part of the royal family, so it made more sense that she would eventually get on the line (even if the actual circumstances preceeding her death were very unexpected).

One could argue Shirley WAS somehow involved too, since she was close to Zero (even if she wasn't actually aware of that) to some extent. I guess her life came at risk from the moment she decided to get involved with Lelouch, actually.

Still, as a fan, seeing her die in such a tragic way had been a real trauma to me.
I liked her so much, I remember getting depressed for a few days after I saw ep13. Hell, I still didn't get over it yet. Whenever i listen to the OST I always skip The Ruins As They Were... I just can't listen to this song anymore.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Lost Cause

I think DragoZERO hit the nail on the head by saying;"Her innocence is what made it so tragic"! Exactly! When Shirley was killed I was like "OMG NO, WHY?!!" She wasn't involved with either side of the fight, nor a collaborator. Like any war innocents do die, and with Shirley they (the producers) hammered that point home!
When a combatant dies it's understandable. But when an innocent dies it's a shock!

The irony there is that not very many combatants died in Code Geass (well, not very many that we cared about anyway). Seriously, they couldn't even keep Guilford dead!

Originally Posted by Arbitres

While Shirley was one of the most innocent characters in the entire show, she did almost kill Lelouch. She also became a bit twisted at Mao's mind dissection -- but she remained the carefree, clumsy Ashford girl. (...Milly is carefree, but she is not clumsy. Though I'm expecting gravity to work on her any time now.)

Well, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. True, it wasn't a good thing for her to do, but it's not like she was doing it hatefully or anything. Even when she was about to kill Zero/Lelouch in Stage 13, she was very hesitant to. As for Stage 14, yeah, her mind had pretty much broken down.

Though that was because of her memory wipe, yes. She became sort of a 'blank slate' after Lelouch geassed her to forget about him and the events... But she fell in love with the same person, got her memories back, and she still loved him. Even with that knowledge of what he did.

Well, blank slate as far as what she knew about Lelouch.

Also, she had her head in the clouds because of the note she found about 'Lelouch being Zero'. I guess it was somewhat good no one else found it. Though she died in a way I would've preferred to see Lelouch die in. (The atmosphere actually would've fitted him perfectly. Anyone else notice how dramatic the room is? It looked clandestine angelic.)

You know, that's actually entered my mind a few times. I don't think I actually consciously acknowledged it, but I couldn't help but think there was something church-like about where she died. The lighting and the windows do make it seem like a cathedral, fitting with her angelic nature and forgiveness/redemption theme.

[Nobodyman9]

So, in the new PD it seems there's a bit of Shirley/Nina interaction and Nina leaves some parting words for Shirley. Thoughts? Opinions?

Also, might I add that Shirley was hella cute in the PD

[Sol Falling]

I always found Nina's reaction to Shirley's death interesting. It made sense that the introverted Nina, who really only hung around with the Student Council because of Milly, would have felt some distance and even resentment towards Shirley, in all her outspoken and outgoing friendliness. I presume that because of the regret she expressed to Kanon, over how she'd held herself back with Shirley out of envy, and now that she was dead, she'd lost that chance and realized what was truly unfortunate, Nina's speech to Shirley would be about finally recieving some closure about those things. It was probably a thanks for all of Shirley's open gestures of friendship that she never got to give while she was alive. I think it should be pretty meaningful.

Of course, I guess there wouldn't be much else in terms of important stuff directed at her because the person she had the strongest connection to, Lelouch, is dead along with her and Rolo. Still, just to see Shirley interacting with others again and being her cute self is a rare gift, so I'd like to watch the PD with subs.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

I always found Nina's reaction to Shirley's death interesting. It made sense that the introverted Nina, who really only hung around with the Student Council because of Milly, would have felt some distance and even resentment towards Shirley, in all her outspoken and outgoing friendliness. I presume that because of the regret she expressed to Kanon, over how she'd held herself back with Shirley out of envy, and now that she was dead, she'd lost that chance and realized what was truly unfortunate, Nina's speech to Shirley would be about finally recieving some closure about those things. It was probably a thanks for all of Shirley's open gestures of friendship that she never got to give while she was alive. I think it should be pretty meaningful.

Actually, I just now read a pretty detailed summary of the PD, and Nina's and Shirley's interactions occur as follows.

Spoiler for PD Spoilers:

There's two major scenes in regard to Shirley and Nina. The first one is when they're talking while walking down a hallway or something, and Nina says she wants to tell Shirely something, but she can't remember. Shirley assures her it'll come to her.

The other is at the end of the PD when Shirley, Lelouch, Rolo and C.C. have departed and Nina remembers what she wanted to say. She wanted to say "Thank you Shirley for befriending me."

So yeah, nothing too terribly emotional, but it is some nice closure to their relationship and it's pretty spot-on with what you were referring to Sol. Still, if Nina really this sort of resentful relationship with Shirley, I kinda wish they would've expanded on it more in the show, then it could've had more meaning. But yeah, it's nice to know that in the end Nina truly did think of Shirley as a friend.

Other than that, there isn't too much in regard to Shirley. She does get flustered when C.C. proclaims that she's betrothed to Lelouch, and we get to see her be her cute bubbly self in general. So yeah, it was nice to see her and we couldn't have asked for too much more.

Still, just to see Shirley interacting with others again and being her cute self is a rare gift, so I'd like to watch the PD with subs.

Agreed

[Lost Cause]

That's our Shirley! She is the most openminded, kindhearted person in the show! And they brought her back in the PD as well! Always knew she was to tough to keep down!
The irony of it is (at least for me) she finally got to have Lelouch....in heaven!
Shirley+Lelouch=FOREVER!

[Kittenlady]

Shirley's adorable <3 And I absolutely love her imagination, I swear I just about kill myself laughing everytime I hear that Ticket of Dreams Sound Drama.

Shirley could have better friends than Nina. If I remember correctly, she reacted very calmly to news of her death (not sure though, it's been a while). I dunno, I just really don't like Nina.

While it's not my favourite pairing (though I pretty much ship everything), I think it's the most canon Lelouch pairing, especially since they're both dead. Either that or LuluEuphy (well, Emperor Siscon and all...). Plus in that 50 questions thing Lelouch said he likes 'sweet, caring' girls or something like that (so basically anyone who reminds him of Nunnally amirite?), and that fits Shirley to a tee.

[Arbitres]

Ticket of Dream was very amusing, she had quite the imagination... Though I think the only one that was in character was Milly. They all sounded insane, then again... If they sounded insane then it was probably Shirley's paranoia.

Shirley is just a very adorable character with the serious problem of being stuck in the wrong genre. Which of course, resulted in her death.

Unfortunate, but it's better then her getting killed by Luciano.

[Ten-Go]

Originally Posted by Arbitres

Unfortunate, but it's better then her getting killed by Luciano.

Do you mean Charles "Lucky" Luciano and the genre of gangster-movie?

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Kittenlady

Shirley could have better friends than Nina. If I remember correctly, she reacted very calmly to news of her death (not sure though, it's been a while). I dunno, I just really don't like Nina.

Eh, no one likes Nina. But to be fair she did actually seem to be pretty sad over her death. Actually, now that I'm thinking about, the Ashford group for the most part, seemed to get over her death pretty fast. They were sad at the funeral scene and that's about it.

The next time we saw Rivalz he was working on his bike and upon being asked where Lelouch asked he responded, "He's not here. I guess he's still upset about Shirley."

You guess? Geez Rivalz, I'm surprised you're not more upset about it.

And the next time we saw Milly she was goofing around in a penguin suit on national television.

Plus in that 50 questions thing Lelouch said he likes 'sweet, caring' girls or something like that (so basically anyone who reminds him of Nunnally amirite?), and that fits Shirley to a tee.

Hmm, that's an interesting point. Well, as you said, Shirley is definitely sweet and caring, so she fits there pretty well. C.C....eh, not so much. Kallen...well, she can be sweet and caring when she's not frying people with her radiation claw

BTW, do you have a link to that 50 questions thing?

Originally Posted by Ten-Go

Do you mean Charles "Lucky" Luciano and the genre of gangster-movie?

Not sure what you're talking about, or if you're just joking, but in any case he was referring to Bradley Luciano, the Knight of Ten.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Ten-Go

Do you mean Charles "Lucky" Luciano and the genre of gangster-movie?

Er, I think he probably meant Luciano Bradley, one of the Rounds (Knight of Eleven if I remember correctly). He was the sick fuck/sadistic bastard who wanted to delimb and rape Kallen while she was in captivity, and who she eventually killed.

Though, connecting Luciano to Shirley seems a bit random to me...I guess he was one of the foremost psychos in Code Geass, but Rolo doesn't fall far behind. And beyond that even, we also had Mao. So, though of course Shirley's death could have been worse (that's true of anything, really), that doesn't really make what happened to her any less terrible...

(Then again, to restate an unpopular opinion I have and also contradict my own point above, I actually somewhat appreciated what Mao did for Shirley's character. Precisely because all those terrible things he was saying about her and Lelouch were true, that made her loyalty to him and desire for him to be kind to her all the more powerful.)

edit: yeah, I'm slow. Eh. :P Er, with regards to the 50 questions thing, I think the exact wording was 'soft' girls. I agree it's perfectly reminiscent of Shirley as well (as to where you'd find it...it was a pretty old interview, like, middle of S1 even I think. It's probably somewhere in the archives over at livejournal, but it'd be a tough find...)

[Kittenlady]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Eh, no one likes Nina. But to be fair she did actually seem to be pretty sad over her death. Actually, now that I'm thinking about, the Ashford group for the most part, seemed to get over her death pretty fast. They were sad at the funeral scene and that's about it.

The next time we saw Rivalz he was working on his bike and upon being asked where Lelouch asked he responded, "He's not here. I guess he's still upset about Shirley."

You guess? Geez Rivalz, I'm surprised you're not more upset about it.

And the next time we saw Milly she was goofing around in a penguin suit on national television.


Hmm, that's an interesting point. Well, as you said, Shirley is definitely sweet and caring, so she fits there pretty well. C.C....eh, not so much. Kallen...well, she can be sweet and caring when she's not frying people with her radiation claw

BTW, do you have a link to that 50 questions thing?

Here we are. His exact words are "A sort person", but hey it still fits.

Lol, good point actually, but at least they had the decency to be sad for a while. Nina just wasn't a good friend in general, considering she tried to blow up all her friends because a girl she met twice died.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

edit: yeah, I'm slow. Eh. :P Er, with regards to the 50 questions thing, I think the exact wording was 'soft' girls. I agree it's perfectly reminiscent of Shirley as well (as to where you'd find it...it was a pretty old interview, like, middle of S1 even I think. It's probably somewhere in the archives over at livejournal, but it'd be a tough find...)

Ah, I see. Thank you. Yeah, that does sound pretty familiar now. And yes, Shirley is very "soft."

Originally Posted by Kittenlady

Here we are. His exact words are "A sort person", but hey it still fits.

Um, okay. I wasn't aware that "sort" was an adjective But thanks for the link.

Lol, good point actually, but at least they had the decency to be sad for a while. Nina just wasn't a good friend in general, considering she tried to blow up all her friends because a girl she met twice died.

Well, I guess a fair amount of time had passed since her point, so it may have been enough time for them to get over it, more or less. Still, I wish they had done a better job of depicting that and had shown more of their reactions to her death.

As for Nina, I don't want to get off topic, but she was just a very messed up person in general. I don't think it's so much that she was a bad friend, but rather a very disturbed person.

[Kittenlady]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Ah, I see. Thank you. Yeah, that does sound pretty familiar now. And yes, Shirley is very "soft."

Um, okay. I wasn't aware that "sort" was an adjective But thanks for the link.

Well, I guess a fair amount of time had passed since her point, so it may have been enough time for them to get over it, more or less. Still, I wish they had done a better job of depicting that and had shown more of their reactions to her death.

As for Nina, I don't want to get off topic, but she was just a very messed up person in general. I don't think it's so much that she was a bad friend, but rather a very disturbed person.

Oops xD the F and R key are right next to each other, though =P And your welcome. It's a fun read.

Bleh, what made me really dislike Nina was how bitchy she was to Milly. Being at least half responsible for the FLEIJA is a close second and this is off-topic.

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Well, I guess a fair amount of time had passed since her point, so it may have been enough time for them to get over it, more or less. Still, I wish they had done a better job of depicting that and had shown more of their reactions to her death.

After the audience watched Lelouch go ax-crazy on a bunch of scientists and children over Shirley, I don't think anyone had the energy left to care what Air-kun* felt.

I blame the lack of focus on a combination of story pacing, and the fact that things really did pick up from an in-story perspective. The BK were uniting the world against Britannia and then outright declared war against them soon afterwards, so people had to put their grief aside and prepare for the worst.

*I am told that Rivalz' nickname amongst the Japanese fanbase is Air-kun becase of his lack of presence.