Senkaku/Diaoyu/Tiaoyutai/Pinnacle Islands dispute

[kaizerknight01]

IMHO the he island remain as it a Status quo ..... An island ..... if disgust me that political forces are stoking and flaming irrational hate on both sides ...... after all this years just when the government of china are changing leaders, then US in election mode .... and bunch back door politicking .....

[LeoXiao]

Originally Posted by aohige

The polarization is not evenly divided, nor is unifcation supported by the majority.
However, amongst th authorities of Taiwan, it's most certainly polarized and divided between loyalists and indies.

Unification is not supported by even a major minority, but the notion that the people on Taiwan are Chinese (as well as Taiwanese) is one that is still supported by a large proportion of the population. It was fairly recently that a slight majority of Taiwanese, when polled, said that they did not see themselves as Chinese even if they could also identify as Taiwanese.

Even in the government, unification is something probably seen as a very distant goal, and ideally to occur only in the case that the mainland should liberalize. And of course there are also those who profit from having better and better relations with the PRC and hence might be called sellouts.

[willx]

Chinese Fishing Flotilla Not Seen Heading for Senkaku

http://jen.jiji.com/jc/eng?g=eco&k=2012091801058

All clear. Nothing to see here folks. Gone fishin'

[Dextro]

In a more light-hearted and humorous note: it appears that Apple's new iOS maps duplicated the islands. I guess that's one way to "solve" the issue

[Ithekro]

Cloned Islands.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by kaizerknight01

IMHO the he island remain as it a Status quo ..... An island ..... if disgust me that political forces are stoking and flaming irrational hate on both sides ...... after all this years just when the government of china are changing leaders, then US in election mode .... and bunch back door politicking .....

Both sides?
Yeah, becuase you know, all those riots and plundering Chinese stores and business in Japan.

OH WAIT.

Oh, and international friction over oil? So unheard of. /sarcasm

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

Unification is not supported by even a major minority, but the notion that the people on Taiwan are Chinese (as well as Taiwanese) is one that is still supported by a large proportion of the population. It was fairly recently that a slight majority of Taiwanese, when polled, said that they did not see themselves as Chinese even if they could also identify as Taiwanese.

Even in the government, unification is something probably seen as a very distant goal, and ideally to occur only in the case that the mainland should liberalize. And of course there are also those who profit from having better and better relations with the PRC and hence might be called sellouts.

Tell that to kyp.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by aohige

Both sides?
Yeah, becuase you know, all those riots and plundering Chinese stores and business in Japan.

OH WAIT.

Eh, while China is by far and away the worst offender in this, Japan is hardly innocent of fanning the fires of controversy, as they've done so plenty of times.

Originally Posted by aohige

Tell that to kyp.

Um, you realize he's agreeing with me right? >_>

[LeoXiao]

Originally Posted by kyp275

Um, you realize he's agreeing with me right? >_>

Actually, I must admit that my views are formed only through very generalized evidence and guesswork, since I don't talk to very many Taiwanese about their opinions on this subject. As someone from Beijing (or at least my family is), it can sometimes be hard to get a good idea of what the imperial subjects in remote provinces are thinking.

[Seitsuki]

Most of my Taiwanese friends are pretty touchy about the whole 'part of China' thing. Sensationalist news excepted I do believe that's the general concensus.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

Actually, I must admit that my views are formed only through very generalized evidence and guesswork, since I don't talk to very many Taiwanese about their opinions on this subject. As someone from Beijing (or at least my family is), it can sometimes be hard to get a good idea of what the imperial subjects in remote provinces are thinking.

Oh no you didn't!!!

Originally Posted by Seitsuki

Most of my Taiwanese friends are pretty touchy about the whole 'part of China' thing. Sensationalist news excepted I do believe that's the general concensus.

Pretty much. It's not something that's really talked about much in every day life by the general populace, most just want a stable country to live in, and it is during these periods of time where the pro-China factions would push their policies, which is usually easing of regulations and closer trade relations (ie. shipping jobs over to the mainland, just like what the US did ).

When the saber-rattling inevitably occurs from time to time though, it's when you see the anti-unification feelings jump to the forefront. Trust me, when China was "testing" cruise missiles and staging amphibious assault exercises back in the mid 90s, there weren't many politicians that dared to appear pro-unification, and the few that did, their political careers did not last for very long afterwards.

[Malkuth]

Mainlanders too, a couple of years ago I was asking about it, and suddenly all faces changed into very serious and recited that Taiwan is China...

It seems that those dumb nationalists are more numerous in Asia than in Europe

Anyway, good news are that their governments are trying to postpone any decisions on those rocks and tone down the behaviour of their less intelligent voters that they have pampered.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by kyp275

Eh, while China is by far and away the worst offender in this, Japan is hardly innocent of fanning the fires of controversy, as they've done so plenty of times.

Oh yeah, sending guard ships to watch over illegally entered vessels is so inflamatory.
We should just fire all coast guards, obviously their services are unnecessary.

/sarcasm

AFAIK, that's a standard procedure for any nation with a border.
Rioting, looting, and threatening to kill people are not.

Originally Posted by kyp275

Um, you realize he's agreeing with me right? >_>

Everything he has said supports the view that Taiwan is a polarized state. Like anywhere else in the world.
I don't understand why you're offended by this, you WANT to claim your people are hiveminds?
Taiwanese is not a single entity, there are plenty of conflicting interests. Chinese relations is one of them. That's a GOOD thing, not an insult, dude.

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

It seems that those dumb nationalists are more numerous in Asia than in Europe

It's more like having two major wars wipe out entire generations and living under the threat of nuclear war made Europeans go more pacifist.

[kuroishinigami]

Originally Posted by aohige

Oh yeah, sending guard ships to watch over illegally entered vessels is so inflamatory.
We should just fire all coast guards, obviously their services are unnecessary.

/sarcasm

AFAIK, that's a standard procedure for any nation with a border.
Rioting, looting, and threatening to kill people are not.

.

Indeed. Having a governor of your capital city issuing public statements of officially buying said disputed island is so not inflamatory. /sarcasm

You have to remember, in a tense situation, even the smallest gesture can result in an all-out fight, and both side is just as bad as the other in this regard by throwing provocative word or remark. I agree that China looks like a jerk in a lot of other territorial disputes, but both are just as bad in this regard. China just has more manpower so their reaction is more noticable.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by kuroishinigami

Indeed. Having a governor of your capital city issuing public statements of officially buying said disputed island is so not inflamatory. /sarcasm

You have to remember, in a tense situation, even the smallest gesture can result in an all-out fight, and both side is just as bad as the other in this regard by throwing provocative word or remark. I agree that China looks like a jerk in a lot of other territorial disputes, but both are just as bad in this regard. China just has more manpower so their reaction is more noticable.

Ishihara is a jerk, and an asshat, sure. I agree there.
But how in the hell does that scale anywhere close to what's happning in China?

It's like pointing at a wildfire in a forest, and then pointing at a cigarette lighter, and say "well, they are both flames."

No, this "both side is just as bad" is utter pile of BS.

And this "well China has more people" is equally BS.

Do you see ONE riot in Japan? By even a small group of people? No.
Do you see Japan even demo-ing in the streets? No.
Do you even see large scale boycotts of Chinese products? No, not even that.
It's nothing but "everyday as usual".

By your logic, if you called me a jerk, and I came over and killed your family, would you accept court ruling "both sides were equally bad"?

[Terrestrial Dream]

Originally Posted by aohige

Ishihara is a jerk, and an asshat, sure. I agree there.
But how in the hell does that scale anywhere close to what's happning in China?

It's like pointing at a wildfire in a forest, and then pointing at a cigarette lighter, and say "well, they are both flames."

No, this "both side is just as bad" is utter pile of BS.

And this "well China has more people" is equally BS.

Do you see ONE riot in Japan? By even a small group of people? No.
Do you see Japan even demo-ing in the streets? No.
Do you even see large scale boycotts of Chinese products? No, not even that.
It's nothing but "everyday as usual".

Well, not against China but there was a protest against Korea about 5 days ago.
http://media.daum.net/foreign/japan/...20916065903506

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by aohige

Oh yeah, sending guard ships to watch over illegally entered vessels is so inflamatory.
We should just fire all coast guards, obviously their services are unnecessary.

/sarcasm

AFAIK, that's a standard procedure for any nation with a border.
Rioting, looting, and threatening to kill people are not.

sigh, let's stop with the white-washing ok? and I would also appreciate it if you would stop trying to put words in my mouth, as at no point did I ever mention anything about coast guard ships

What I said was that Japan is not innocent of stirring up controversies with its Asian neighbors, which is true in both this particular case and others. You think this mess would've started if Ishihara didn't go out and make that asinine push to buy the islands? There's also the myriad of other WW2 related issues that continues to pop up from time to time that lights the fire anew, no party is innocent in all this.

Originally Posted by aohige

Everything he has said supports the view that Taiwan is a polarized state. Like anywhere else in the world.
I don't understand why you're offended by this, you WANT to claim your people are hiveminds?
Taiwanese is not a single entity, there are plenty of conflicting interests. Chinese relations is one of them. That's a GOOD thing, not an insult, dude.

Eh, at no point did I suggest every single person in Taiwan is anti-unification, but remember my response was originally to Uruz7 when he said "a significant amount of people in Taiwan that want to be part of the PRC", which was simply not true.

Also, IMO, the use of "polarized" carries with it an implication that the divide is at least somewhat even, else it becomes overbroad and pointless. For example, there are plenty of Amish living in the US, but you wouldn't say the US is polarized over whether technology should be a part of people's daily life.

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by Terrestrial Dream

Well, not against China but there was a protest against Korea about 5 days ago.
http://media.daum.net/foreign/japan/...20916065903506

What's funny is you don't often see those ultranationalist groups protesting against Chinese.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by kyp275

sigh, let's stop with the white-washing ok? and I would also appreciate it if you would stop trying to put words in my mouth, as at no point did I ever mention anything about coast guard ships

What I said was that Japan is not innocent of stirring up controversies with its Asian neighbors, which is true in both this particular case and others. You think this mess would've started if Ishihara didn't go out and make that asinine push to buy the islands? There's also the myriad of other WW2 related issues that continues to pop up from time to time that lights the fire anew, no party is innocent in all this.

Coast guard comments were not intended to sound like your words, it was intended to sound like mine.
I agree that there's blame on Japanese side for not bending over and let its neighhors rape her in the ass while throwing insults, but that's NOT an excuse to act like retarded five year olds thowing tantrums.

It's like blaiming US for an inflamatory movie and attacking their embassies.... OH WAIT.

I'm not saying Japan doesn't bear a burden of blame, I'm saying, it is NOWHERE near equal amount as what PRC bears.
If this was between Japan and Korea or Taiwan, you have an argument there.
But China? Hell no.

Eh, at no point did I suggest every single person in Taiwan is anti-unification, but remember my response was originally to Uruz7 when he said "a significant amount of people in Taiwan that want to be part of the PRC", which was simply not true.

Gotcha. I thought you were replying to the polization comment in general.

Also, IMO, the use of "polarized" carries with it an implication that the divide is at least somewhat even, else it becomes overbroad and pointless. For example, there are plenty of Amish living in the US, but you wouldn't say the US is polarized over whether technology should be a part of people's daily life.

I don't think the loyalists are Amish of Taiwan, like I said previously, I see them more like a Zionist in American government. Small in numbers, large in influence.

[kuroishinigami]

Originally Posted by aohige

Ishihara is a jerk, and an asshat, sure. I agree there.
But how in the hell does that scale anywhere close to what's happning in China?

It's like pointing at a wildfire in a forest, and then pointing at a cigarette lighter, and say "well, they are both flames."

No, this "both side is just as bad" is utter pile of BS.

And this "well China has more people" is equally BS.

Do you see ONE riot in Japan? By even a small group of people? No.
Do you see Japan even demo-ing in the streets? No.
Do you even see large scale boycotts of Chinese products? No, not even that.
It's nothing but "everyday as usual".

By your logic, if you called me a jerk, and I came over and killed your family, would you accept court ruling "both sides were equally bad"?

Maybe not equally bad, but you can't say that you don't invite the disaster yourself by calling someone with a deep grudge to you "jerk". I think they even have "temporary insanity" defense in US law right? You can't say that you're not on the wrong if the other side hit you after you provoke him, especially if he/she has a deep grudge on you. That is what I meant when I said both side is equally bad. Japan has been giving provocative actions and words toward China, not only regarding this island, but also the numerous visit to Japan "war hero" who rape and massacred Chinese. Surely you can't say that they expect the Chinese to not explode after all that? And if that's not call inflamatory, I don't know what is(and yes, calling someone jerk is also an inflammatory gesture)

As for demo and riot, it's just not in Japanese DNA to show their displeasure openly(they believe in "enduring" the hardships), but the grudge they held over China is more or less the same as Chinese toward Japan from my conversations with some native Japanese. You wouldn't believe what some of the older Japanese generation will say about China unless you hear it yourselves lol.