[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 1 Legend of the golden witch

[Exilon]

Originally Posted by Eryops

Most of the points I had thought of after finishing the VN have already been raised in this thread except for one:

Spoiler:

It's regarding the conclusion on the notebook page that's found in a wine bottle a few years after the incident:

"If you read this, at that time, I'll probably be dead.
My corpse may exist or may not exist, however.
You, who read this.
Please, disclose the truth.
That's my only wish.
Ushiromiya Maria"

a nice parallel to Onikakushi-hen. However I found this note to be truly bizarre. Maria in the story appears to fully believe in Beatrice. As far as she's concerned, she knows exactly what's going on; people are being killed by a witch. Why would she want to ask people to solve a mystery to witch she already has the answer? Therefore I'm guessing that either the note was written by someone other than Maria or Maria was only pretending to believe in a witch and was trying to solve the mystery by herself. (Or the scenes we see in which maria seems to believe in a witch are all hallucinations.)

Another question is when Maria threw the bottle in the ocean. We only see her near the sea before the murders start and the note would have had to been written after the incident finished. Did she live long enough to write a note and go throw it in the ocean? Or perhaps like Rika in Higurashi she had seen this situation unfold before and written about it before the murders started?

Probably her belief was shattered completely when she found out it actually wasn't a witch. Remember that it is unknown what happened after midnight. I'd say Maria was the last survivor of the four, and was running away. In a pinch, she wrote the letter and sent it as a desperate measure.

Of course that, for us, the readers, you can interpret this as a message from ryukishi himself, telling us to not believe in the witch. And who better than Maria, the one that believed in the witch more than everyone else, to tell us this?

[Nadeor]

Well I had a doubt about the authencity of that letter
but coming to the thought of Onikakushi-hen's letter written by Keiichi, it kinda makes sense

[Exilon]

But in Keiichi's case, you know what he means :P ...Which reminds I still can't quite figure out what happened to the middle part of that letter which was tore out and never found. XD

[Katsu Koneko]

^^; This may be a stupid question, but...where's the music box? Is it also included with the demo version?

[Nadeor]

The music box is only available after you have finished reading the first chapter

[Katsu Koneko]

Yup I finished the first chapter & the two tea parties. :3

[Nadeor]

EP1, Ep1 exterior tea party, Ep1 hidden tea party, EP2, Ep2 Exterior tea party, EP2 hidden tea party

[Katsu Koneko]

Ah. Thanks for the information. ^^

[Eryops]

Spoiler for Umineko Chapter 1:

Something I found really weird is the knowledge Maria displays. She can easily read Hebrew, can cite verses from the Old Testament on the fly and can instantly recognize obscure mystical symbols with no difficulty. This goes far beyond the level of knowledge you'd expect from a nine year old even if she was really into the occult. The most plausible naturalistic explanation if that the culprit has coached her to say what she needs to upon seeing each symbol, since such a depth of knowledge seems impossible for someone of her age.

Originally Posted by Exilon

But in Keiichi's case, you know what he means :P ...Which reminds I still can't quite figure out what happened to the middle part of that letter which was tore out and never found. XD

Spoiler for Onikakushi-hen:

The Yamainu must have found it and cut it out since it specifically mentions them and they would have no reason to draw the attention of the police to themselves.

[Exilon]

Spoiler:

I think it's been mentioned somewhere in another thread, but someone talked about how Maria could suffer from Savant's Syndrome. If that's Maria's case, it wouldn't be so surprising. As for me, I agree with this theory, but keep in mind of how she has grown up. All in all, it is not completely impossible- just absurdly rare. First things first, she has grown excluded from normal social groups (As hinted when Rosa slaps her), and therefore distracts herself reading those kinds of books. It's quite plausible Kinzo was even the one to pass her this obsession, seeing as he himself is an occult maniac... (or so it seems.)

[Keriaku]

About the person that said it was weird for a nine year old to have that much knowledge, the character profiles does say she has a talent for memorization. So if she's interested in this stuff, she's going to remember it.

[Eryops]

Originally Posted by Exilon

Spoiler:

I think it's been mentioned somewhere in another thread, but someone talked about how Maria could suffer from Savant's Syndrome. If that's Maria's case, it wouldn't be so surprising. As for me, I agree with this theory, but keep in mind of how she has grown up. All in all, it is not completely impossible- just absurdly rare. First things first, she has grown excluded from normal social groups (As hinted when Rosa slaps her), and therefore distracts herself reading those kinds of books. It's quite plausible Kinzo was even the one to pass her this obsession, seeing as he himself is an occult maniac... (or so it seems.)

Spoiler:

When in serious mode she seems quite sharp, so saying hat she has Savant Syndrome which would involve her suffering from mental retardation doesn't seem that likely. And how would Kinzo pass that obsession to her when he practically never sees his family even when they're there and Maria only visits his house once a year to begin with?

Originally Posted by Keriaku

About the person that said it was weird for a nine year old to have that much knowledge, the character profiles does say she has a talent for memorization. So if she's interested in this stuff, she's going to remember it.

Spoiler:

We aren't talking about her memorizing just a few occult symbols. She appears to be fluent in Hebrew, which is a pretty obscure language. Learning a language isn't that simple; it should have taken her years of effort to do so. Add on top of that her detailed knowledge of the Torah and all those occult symbols and the implausibility of a nine year-old learning all these things increases.

[Exilon]

Originally Posted by Eryops

Spoiler:

When in serious mode she seems quite sharp, so saying hat she has Savant Syndrome which would involve her suffering from mental retardation doesn't seem that likely. And how would Kinzo pass that obsession to her when he practically never sees his family even when they're there and Maria only visits his house once a year to begin with?

Spoiler:

If we take her actions in the episode as her normal behavior, then she does have a mental retardation, if not much, at least in the social level. A nine year old DOES NOT act like Maria normally acts (going uu-uu-, and not knowing when people are talking seriously, for example). A nine year old should already have a bit of common sense, and Maria doesn't. I think that, even at one point, Battler says Maria hasn't changed at all in six years. Of course this is quite exaggerated, but still suffices.
We don't really know if Kinzo has always been like that (not visiting his family). According to EP1,(correct me if I'm mistaken) he only started spending all his day in his room around 2 years before the game's timeframe (the time when he revealed the epitaph). Even so, he could have given Maria some books which sparkle her interest.

Originally Posted by Eryops

Spoiler:

We aren't talking about her memorizing just a few occult symbols. She appears to be fluent in Hebrew, which is a pretty obscure language. Learning a language isn't that simple; it should have taken her years of effort to do so. Add on top of that her detailed knowledge of the Torah and all those occult symbols and the implausibility of a nine year-old learning all these things increases.

Spoiler:

Never tried learning Hebrew, but I started learning English with a dictionary when I was SIX. By 9 I could already speak a little bit. So, it is not completely impossible. Also, regarding symbols, some people do HAVE that kind of memorization, and it is not rare to find it in little kids.

[Eryops]

Originally Posted by Exilon

Spoiler:

If we take her actions in the episode as her normal behavior, then she does have a mental retardation, if not much, at least in the social level. A nine year old DOES NOT act like Maria normally acts (going uu-uu-, and not knowing when people are talking seriously, for example). A nine year old should already have a bit of common sense, and Maria doesn't. I think that, even at one point, Battler says Maria hasn't changed at all in six years. Of course this is quite exaggerated, but still suffices.

Spoiler:

I agree that the way she acts most of the time is abnormal for a nine year-old. However she doesn't seem to have a problem talking quite intelligently when she wants to ans she shows quite good reasoning abilities rather than just regurgitating information. If she were suffering from some kind of mental retardation she shouldn't be able to do that. Therefore her normal behavior may just be a way for her to attract attention rather than reflective of her true intelligence.

[Exilon]

Originally Posted by Eryops

Spoiler:

I agree that the way she acts most of the time is abnormal for a nine year-old. However she doesn't seem to have a problem talking quite intelligently when she wants to ans she shows quite good reasoning abilities rather than just regurgitating information. If she were suffering from some kind of mental retardation she shouldn't be able to do that. Therefore her normal behavior may just be a way for her to attract attention rather than reflective of her true intelligence.

Spoiler:

Quite possible indeed. ...Well, this might be a long shot, but no one has suggested this, could MAria suffer from Asperger's Syndrome? sorry if I'm trying to make Maria actually sick, but this one actually makes more sense than Savant. ... It explains her behaviour, and her "sharpness".

Also, she could draw way more attention near the adults if she expressed her knowledge immediatly. so why act "dumb"?

[k//eternal]

Spoiler:

Maybe too convenient, but there's no reason it can't be a case of split personalities. If this is so, she doesn't actually retain her knowledge of what happens when she's in spooky mode (there's no real indication that she does, as far as I recall, but many people are keeping track better than I am for sure).

That would mean she has a few blanks in her memory, which she might attribute to being possessed by a witch (especially since the other Maria scribbles occult symbols into her notebook).

Things this explains if true:

1. The huge difference between "normal" and "spooky" Maria.

2. Her "uu" speech, as this is associated with personality disorder.

3. The fact that she can actually be "normal" at all after seeing the things she's seen throughout the game--come on, that would give most kids nightmares. But not if she doesn't remember them.

4. The notebook entry at the end. We know "spooky" Maria is a devoted follower of Beatrice, but "normal" Maria, while she might believe in the supernatural, isn't necessarily so. She might actually want to expose the witch, as well as find out the truth about her other side.

Thoughts?

[ClockWorkAngel]

Spoiler for My Opinons:

Well the things is that the whole image of the "Witch" Maria has is attributed to find a person to symbolize, it's not that she doesn't believe in the witch, she sincerely does, but can she regard a person who has killed everyone including herself as a person to be idolized? Regardless of her views she is still a child that loves her relatives and of course will feel remorse for their deaths. She wants this to be solved as for closure.

Or it could be our beloved Witch-sama taunting us.

[Rias]

Spoiler for Maria:

Now I don't know alot about childhood psychology, but I still think it's closer to Savant than Asperger. Mainly becuase she also exibits an expertise in memory and the fields that interests her. However, it might be that she does have split personality...mainly due to Rosa's hysterical behavior towards her.

Spoiler for maria in ep2:

This is more appearant in ep2. However, ep2's ending also might be foreshadowing that she doesn't have a split personality

Spoiler for Maria's note:

The note is hard to say. We don't know for sure if it's really written by Maria to begin with. Even if it is, why would she choose such an hard-to-discover method (note in a bottle)? Finally, the timing of the bottle being released is also unknown. It could've been floating in the sea before everyone got to the island on the 4th.

[Exilon]

Spoiler:

Meh. I can't say I didn't think of that possibility, but yeah, it sounds too convenient. But it seems plausible even more because when "Dark" Maria appears she ALWAYS refers to her as Maria (not "I"), like she isn't herself, but someone else.
But, even if it was the case, the question about her knowledge is still up: how would she learn so much?!

Originally Posted by Rias

Spoiler:

Now I don't know alot about childhood psychology, but I still think it's closer to Savant than Asperger. Mainly becuase she also exibits an expertise in memory and the fields that interests her. However, it might be that she does have split personality...mainly due to Rosa's hysterical behavior towards her.

Spoiler:

Asperger's usually demonstrate great intelligence, and normally have a very good memory. also, they can speak fluently of the stuff they know about. In Maria's case, developing an interest for the occult isn't abnormal if she really has Asperger, and you cans ee that many of the things she says when she's serious are like passages of a book. This is because Asperger's have a sponge-like memory, absorbing everything they (in Maria's case) read, and having the ability to blurp it all out with almost no flaws at all.

[tobiast88]

Asperger's is a really controversial diagnosis, with a lot of people doubting it exists.