What Gundam shows count as war anime? [All shows]

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Correction: people like you don't know what military strategy is, so they display their ignorance as if it's something to be proud of. Have you read this tread carefully enough to make the meaningful contribution of either addressing points, or putting up interesting points of your own, or are you just here to meander about? If your message is just to PowerBarEX, then I suggest that you confine it to a PM - after all, it's what they're for.

My strategy (or tactic I guess^^) is to punch holes in your bull$hit..and I can't complain since it's been working for some time now...

Now you control the dictionary and perceptions of how the word "strategy" can and cannot be applied ? As I've said before if your book-smarts were as good as your common sense you might just get the best outta me...

[PowerBarEX]

Very generally, the planning leading up to a battle can be thought of as strategy, while how the battle is fought should be considered tactics. This definition, doesn't really apply to Zeta since the battles are too small to involve strategy.

Ok...then how about the planning in the briefing room when they decide to divert the Gundam away from the Argama? Or when they decide to stage diversionary battles to mask the movement of the colony laser? Or when they decide to attack Jaburo instead of Gryps? Saying it doesn't apply to Zeta just because the battles are small is the same thing as saying there is no strategy required for such battles is it not? Surely the examples I mentioned have to account for some type of military strategy. All in all, I don't remember any other anime requiring this great attention to detail to military strategy that you seem to be mentioning. I wanna check out Legend of Galactic Heroes....but I just saw ep 98 on the site...that's a long way to go...

I'm talking about the activity of AEUG's other forces. Until they showed up for a major operation, we hardly even knew that they existed.

Actually they showed up not long after Kamille stole the gundam, on their attack on Jaburo.

The most important political move in Zeta was told to us in narration rather than depicted: Haman Karn's betrayal of AEUG. Also, when the principal leaders discuss politics or if they give speeches, the dialogue/monologue is generally stilted; with little meaning or purpose, and with arguments that are anything but strong.

I disagree, it was evident that Haman would betray the AEUG since the two sides basically had a conflict in interest The two telling political moves were Char taking the stage to sway public opinion and Haman betraying the Titans, destroying their laser and their stronghold the Zedan Gate. Char's speech is crucial to Zeta and his appearance later in CCA, and while Haman and Jamitov did not really let there full intentions be known at the moment, Bask's insistence that his genocide was towards a greater goal of peace was interesting.

How do we know any of this though? What we're doing is making assumptions, when we shouldn't have to. Heck, even to this day, I'm not sure what's up - were the Titans wiped out in the final battle, and the AEUG reduced to little more than Argama, or were there large elements of both forces left to fight Haman's troops later on? When the nobody said that most of the Titan fleet was destroyed, was he referring to the entirety of the Titans, or just their forces in the local area? My point is that this should be explicitly stated somewhere.

That's not true, reading between the lines is different from simply making assumptions. How good/realistic would any movie/literature be if everyone just stated the facts? It would be downright boring. But you know AEUG is short handed the way they had to sortie Katz and Fa at the end despite putting them in the brig. That nobody told you the majority of the fleet is gone just to give you a sense of the devastation of the laser. You can already tell the Titans were crippled when their entire Hierarchy was destroyed at the end. And why SHOULD we know the strength of Axis Zeon? The EF neglected to monitor them closely so how should anyone know their true strength when they've just decided to pull the curtains on themselves? To explicitly state these things instead of using examples like the ones above just makes boring and lacking in writing creativity IMO.

I haven't watched Grave of the Fireflies yet (I have yet to work up the mood to do so), but I feel that I know enough of it to comment. It does qualify as a war story because it tries to tackle just one or two aspects of the war, and it does so very well. The most important point is that the war is shown to have a major impact on the protagonists.

For the most part, Zeta feels like a bunch of teenagers who decide to fight each other for some reason. I expect guerrilla warfare to contain certain elements, but Zeta pointedly did not depict them. In particular, the lack of operational security betrays the mood the creators were trying to instill. That there was very little competence to go around is another big minus.

Grave of the Fireflies essentially follows two siblings that have had their lives devastated by the war. There are no battles, no fighting, its simply their conditions after the war. Honestly, I believe their are some major flaws in that anime, but like you said, it does depict the war strongly having an impact on their lives. Now, lets go to Kamille and Char, the two protagonists of Zeta...can't it be said the same that the war has had a major impact on both their lives?

Kamille, Fa and Katz were the only teenagers to participate as pilots in Zeta (besides the Cyber Newtypes). Each of them had a legitimate reason to fight. Kamille goes through the same path as Amuro, and even toys with the idea that he'd simply not fight and be a civilian whenever it was convenient to him, his motivation to fight eventually matures into fulfilling his ideals and protecting the people around him. Fa participates the same reason as Hayato and Kai in MSG. Katz is the only one whos a war hawk and that comes out of his upbringing on White Base and the adopted son of a rebel leader. So they all have legitimate reasons for fighting.

And why expect guerilla warfare from Zeta? The only guerrila fighting you'll ever get from Gundam is 08th MS Team. It's hard to imagine guerilla warfare in the openness that is space. I do agree about this lack of 'operational security' if you mean certain people constantly jumping into Mobile Suits unauthorized. I felt they should've killed the kid a whole lot earlier to make things more realistic. But its no different than MSG, they did that unrealistic stuff all the time.

Basically, it's the lack of cohesion among many Zeta episodes. You knew that there was going to be a skirmish every episode, whether or not the story called for one, so the level of tension was very low. Beyond that, the plot was very herky-jerky, and many episodes could have been excised without any meaningful detriment to the rest of the story.

I thought the tensioin was higher in Zeta due to the greater amount of tactics involved in trying to defeat Gundam and the Argama. There's also missions of preventing mass genocide which I felt had even more tension than any MSG episodes. I didn't really notice any abruptness in the plot.

Honestly, I think we're just nitpicking more and more as this drags on. I think Zeta covers enough ground to be called a war-anime to me, but perhaps its not hard core enough for you. You have to keep in mind that this is war based on a hypothetical future with various sci-fi elements. I have a feeling if there were no such thing as newtypes in Gundam, it would fit your definition of war-anime much better.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

Ok...then how about the planning in the briefing room when they decide to divert the Gundam away from the Argama? Or when they decide to stage diversionary battles to mask the movement of the colony laser? Or when they decide to attack Jaburo instead of Gryps? Saying it doesn't apply to Zeta just because the battles are small is the same thing as saying there is no strategy required for such battles is it not? Surely the examples I mentioned have to account for some type of military strategy. All in all, I don't remember any other anime requiring this great attention to detail to military strategy that you seem to be mentioning. I wanna check out Legend of Galactic Heroes....but I just saw ep 98 on the site...that's a long way to go...

Nope. None of these are really military strategy, just tactics. To be honest, there aren't many anime shows that display much strategy, but even in Mobile Suit Gundam, there was much more a sense of purpose to the actions of the militaries - the fact that we didn't see them planning anything isn't all that important.

I would encourage everyone to watch Legend of Galactic Heroes, it's a true high point in anime history. While I may have some quibbles about it, it's still a very intelligent show that covers a lot in terms of political and military activity that's rarely seen anywhere else. Don't let the length discourage you - the first few episodes are sufficient to establish exactly what kind of show it is. And if you like it, then you'll probably seek out the rest naturally (by the way, not counting the compilation movies, there are 110 episodes in total). To be honest, not even Legend of Galactic Heroes goes into that much detail regarding strategy, but what it shows isn't too bad.

If you're looking for something shorter, the Glass Fleet is heavily influenced by Legend of Galactic Heroes (although it's a much, much lesser work), and Starship Operators does a fairly good job of showing operational planning and tactics. I especially recommend the latter as an example of more realistic warfare.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

Actually they showed up not long after Kamille stole the gundam, on their attack on Jaburo.

Oh, I know. My point is that where were they the rest of the time? Afterwards, you don't hear anything about them until it's time for the next big operation.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

I disagree, it was evident that Haman would betray the AEUG since the two sides basically had a conflict in interest The two telling political moves were Char taking the stage to sway public opinion and Haman betraying the Titans, destroying their laser and their stronghold the Zedan Gate. Char's speech is crucial to Zeta and his appearance later in CCA, and while Haman and Jamitov did not really let there full intentions be known at the moment, Bask's insistence that his genocide was towards a greater goal of peace was interesting.

But why would Haman betray AEUG? What did they offer her as the reward for taking out the Titans? And what was her goal? I thought that Char's speech was pure drivel, and the Titans' response to it was moronic. Finally, leaders justifying their heinous actions with a promise of a better peace is how leaders have always done it.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

That's not true, reading between the lines is different from simply making assumptions. How good/realistic would any movie/literature be if everyone just stated the facts? It would be downright boring.

No, we shouldn't have to do that. People stating facts about the status of their enemies and their own troops is completely natural - leaders have to be informed about this kind of thing. We shouldn't have to guess. Note that even after making your assumptions, you still can't answer my questions with any degree of confidence.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

But you know AEUG is short handed the way they had to sortie Katz and Fa at the end despite putting them in the brig. That nobody told you the majority of the fleet is gone just to give you a sense of the devastation of the laser. You can already tell the Titans were crippled when their entire Hierarchy was destroyed at the end.

And this is illustrative. AEUG is short handed, but why? Is it because they have more ships than they have personnel for, or because they have a small force but insufficient volunteers, or because they're spread thin amongst all the Sides? Again, my question is how many Titans are left outside of the final battle - is it a few scattered personnel, a few isolated ships, or entire fleets? That their hierarchy was destroyed doesn't tell us a lot since only a very few members were ever shown.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

Grave of the Fireflies essentially follows two siblings that have had their lives devastated by the war. There are no battles, no fighting, its simply their conditions after the war. Honestly, I believe their are some major flaws in that anime, but like you said, it does depict the war strongly having an impact on their lives. Now, lets go to Kamille and Char, the two protagonists of Zeta...can't it be said the same that the war has had a major impact on both their lives?

No, not really. The war in Grave of the Fireflies is nebulous, but its effects are ever-present. The Gryps War, not so much. There's a huge difference between the two, especially given that the protagonists in Zeta are supposed to be soldiers in the thick of the fighting.

Let me bring up another example. In Madlax, much of the story takes place in Garth-Sonika, where a civil war had been raging for a decade. This war is in many ways much more pervasive than the Gryps War is in Zeta, and it arguably affects the lives of the protagonists just as much, but I still wouldn't classify Madlax as a war anime at all. Much of this is due to the fact that many of the details about the war are completely unimportant, which is exactly how Zeta feels as well.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

Kamille, Fa and Katz were the only teenagers to participate as pilots in Zeta <SNIP>

When I referred to "bunch of teenagers", I wasn't just referring to the actual teenagers. I was referring to most of the cast, including Emma, Scirocco, Bright, Jerid, etc. Choosing to fight seemed like little more than a whim, and the dialogue in the show did very little to dispel that impression.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

And why expect guerilla warfare from Zeta? The only guerrila fighting you'll ever get from Gundam is 08th MS Team. It's hard to imagine guerilla warfare in the openness that is space. I do agree about this lack of 'operational security' if you mean certain people constantly jumping into Mobile Suits unauthorized. I felt they should've killed the kid a whole lot earlier to make things more realistic. But its no different than MSG, they did that unrealistic stuff all the time.

Actually, you were the one to bring up "rebel insurgency", I just called it guerilla warfare because I like the latter term more. And by "operational security", I was mostly referring to the brig's open-door policy. Mobile Suit Gundam does lose points for doing silly stuff, but I just feel that it has enough solidity to offset that. Zeta does not.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

I thought the tensioin was higher in Zeta due to the greater amount of tactics involved in trying to defeat Gundam and the Argama. There's also missions of preventing mass genocide which I felt had even more tension than any MSG episodes. I didn't really notice any abruptness in the plot.

I thought that those missions were silly - they suffer mostly from the same lack of purpose that pervades about half the episodes.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

Honestly, I think we're just nitpicking more and more as this drags on. I think Zeta covers enough ground to be called a war-anime to me, but perhaps its not hard core enough for you. You have to keep in mind that this is war based on a hypothetical future with various sci-fi elements. I have a feeling if there were no such thing as newtypes in Gundam, it would fit your definition of war-anime much better.

Not really. I would prefer Gundam without Newtypes, but while that would make it more realistic, it doesn't make a show more of a war story. This has way more to do with the way the show itself is presented.

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

My strategy (or tactic I guess^^) is to punch holes in your bull$hit..and I can't complain since it's been working for some time now...

How the heck do you expect to accomplish that? Magic? If you at least put some effort into constructing some decent arguments, your statement may have a bit more credibility, but right now, it just sounds like an empty boast.

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

As I've said before if your book-smarts were as good as your common sense you might just get the best outta me...

Why would it be necessary for me to get the best out of you?

[true_cricket]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

My strategy (or tactic I guess^^) is to punch holes in your bull$hit..and I can't complain since it's been working for some time now...

Now you control the dictionary and perceptions of how the word "strategy" can and cannot be applied ? As I've said before if your book-smarts were as good as your common sense you might just get the best outta me...

From Dictionary.com

In military usage, a distinction is made between strategy and tactics. Strategy is the utilization, during both peace and war, of all of a nation's forces, through large-scale, long-range planning and development, to ensure security or victory. Tactics deals with the use and deployment of troops in actual combat.

I find this comparision to be the good one from my job's point of view (look in my profile).

Tactic is the level of NCO, and officers.
Operational is for generals, sometimes colonels and equivalents (captain).
Strategy is for planification centers and governements.

[Crusader]

The Titans weren't all wiped out after the gryps war, just the major player... Bask, Jamitov, Scirrocco, Gady. In ZZ i believe most of thier numbers were interegrated into Neo Zeon, Haman makes mention of subjegating those at the kilimanjaro base. Infact the kilimanjaro base is where Neo Zeon used the mass driver to return to space.

I would dare say that perhaps even GS and GSD make good. It shows the fighting and the political aspect almost on par with wing, but even less believable. Not to mention Propaganda is used, well we actually see the propoganda at work. Which i think was used fairly well. Gilbert manipulated the media to Zaft's advantage well to His. Not to mention the Earth Alliance used the same manipulation to jump start the second war.

Zeta lacked the politcal intrigue of Wing or the Seed series. It was more focused on the fighting given that most of the major political figures were barely in the show. Not to mention the figting in Zeta seemed tactless to me, just a bunch of guys shooting the gundam, but to make it worse we got it in Arc form, just changing the person who did the shooting.

Gundam X wasn't comepletly war based, but the whole esdadart arc (or whatever it's called.) seemed to have a more war like feel to it. The last battle of the series between the new federation and The SRA didn't seem to use strategy at all. On the subject of the NF i would say they had at least planned out thier war effort, by dividing thier forces and facing different enemies on differen't front, all of which is discussed with Aimzat. though we don't see much of the actual fighting, most of it being told through narration.

On the subject of wing, OZ seemed to have planned out thier war effort. Infilitrating the Alliance, then the coup, then making peace with the colonies while hunting down the rogue gundam scientist. Build mobile dolls, send them to trouble spots and eventually conquer everything.

The EA had also planned out thier war too, Unleash the destroy on everything... lol ok that was a joke.

4Tran im gonna actually go rewatch some of these shows so i can come up with a better argument.

[kiramuro]

Honestly most gundam shows shouldn't be counted as an war anime. For me the minimum requirement is to show some battlefield tactics and most of them don't. I found the close melee MS combat to be ludicrous and gundam seems to show a lot of those. Perhaps I am seriously biased my 21th century vision of warfare. Although on the front of showing the cruelty of war and the mind-numbing casualties Gundam does a very nice job.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Crusader

The Titans weren't all wiped out after the gryps war, just the major player... Bask, Jamitov, Scirrocco, Gady. In ZZ i believe most of thier numbers were interegrated into Neo Zeon, Haman makes mention of subjegating those at the kilimanjaro base. Infact the kilimanjaro base is where Neo Zeon used the mass driver to return to space.

Ick. That's another major plot development that's just mentioned in passing. Now I'm really glad that I watched ZZ before I watched Zeta.

[PowerBarEX]

but even in Mobile Suit Gundam, there was much more a sense of purpose to the actions of the militaries

Where? That's certainly not the impression I got comparing the two. And that's after watching them back to back.

Oh, I know. My point is that where were they the rest of the time? Afterwards, you don't hear anything about them until it's time for the next big operation.

I don't see the need to know their whereabouts all the time. You know they participated in Jaburo and you know they showed up at the end defending the base. I've yet to check out Galactic Heroes or Glass Fleet, but I highly doubt there's one guy telling you the whereabouts of every single unit in their military. Like I said, the level of detail you're describing is more suited for documentaries. For an anime or movie to apply that level of detail and make it enjoyable with a story to boot, would be quite masterful IMO.

The Gryps War, not so much. There's a huge difference between the two, especially given that the protagonists in Zeta are supposed to be soldiers in the thick of the fighting.

Exactly, their in the thick of war. So how can you say that the effects of war weren't present? If you felt that most the details of war were unimportant, then you're obviously saying Zeta is not a good anime in your opinion, since the entire series focuses on this war/conflict.

When I referred to "bunch of teenagers", I wasn't just referring to the actual teenagers. I was referring to most of the cast, including Emma, Scirocco, Bright, Jerid, etc. Choosing to fight seemed like little more than a whim, and the dialogue in the show did very little to dispel that impression.

Having the youth fight in a conflict isn't anything new. And just because they're willing to fight doesn't mean they did so on little more than a whim. All of the characters ambitions and ideals are all clearly seen. In fact, the character that meets your definition the closest may be Reccoa, and there's even a background behind that. So saying there's no substance behind these characters I think is unfair, especially when gundam focuses on them so much.

Actually, you were the one to bring up "rebel insurgency", I just called it guerilla warfare because I like the latter term more.

But I there's a difference between those two terms. I don't think you have to use guerilla warfare to be a rebel insurgency, at least not in the conventional sense that you are referring to. In fact, I think the problem lies in that your standard for war-anime involves huge world war II era type of action. As it is, Zeta involves a rebel force up against a dominant faction of a large federation. There are no large scale buildups of force. And like I said before there's the sci-fi element of space, mobile suits and human evolution thrown into the mix, something that hasn't appeared in realtime battle yet. So no, your featured group of fighters are not your average every day soldier from rural kansas type of guys. So while you want some large scale military strategy, keep in mind the AEUG is basically Argama and the Radish and they're up against a larger elitist faction. So this isn't like Allied vs Axis...more like a commie country vs some freedom fighters.

I thought that those missions were silly - they suffer mostly from the same lack of purpose that pervades about half the episodes.

I obviously saw differently. Again, I get the impression you want some linear military movement, or at least some X's and O's drawn on some board. As AEUG isn't a nation or a large force, you're not going to get the same linear plotline as you would in MSG. The White Base simply wasn't asked to do as much as the Argama.

Not really. I would prefer Gundam without Newtypes, but while that would make it more realistic, it doesn't make a show more of a war story. This has way more to do with the way the show itself is presented.

You misunderstand, since the Newtype has become such an integral part of Gundam by Zeta, the series would HAVE to present itself differently if the newtype never existed. It would go past just making the series more realistic.

No, we shouldn't have to do that. People stating facts about the status of their enemies and their own troops is completely natural - leaders have to be informed about this kind of thing. We shouldn't have to guess.

Completely natural in a documentary. Many movies and media depicting war that would be considered war-movies or war-anime by the majority don't have people stating facts and numbers like a textbook. We "guess" all the time. Like I said, its called reading in between the lines. What is more interesting? A narrator saying Rob has been cheating on Bob, or a scene in which Bob finds someone elses underwear in Rob's bed?

Note that even after making your assumptions, you still can't answer my questions with any degree of confidence

I'm actually answering all your questions with a high degree of confidence and thought, and I've been using concrete examples to back up my point. It is YOU that have not been helping by throwing around words like 'lack of purpose' or 'sense of immediacy' without proper explanation. I'm going to ASSUME this is just an unintentional shot at my opinions and not go any further than that. In the meantime, I'm going to find a way to acquire Legend of Galactic Heroes and Glass Fleet.

Zeta lacked the politcal intrigue of Wing or the Seed series. It was more focused on the fighting given that most of the major political figures were barely in the show. Not to mention the figting in Zeta seemed tactless to me, just a bunch of guys shooting the gundam, but to make it worse we got it in Arc form, just changing the person who did the shooting.

Are you serious?! If 4Tran views the politics in Zeta to be dummied down, then I can't imagine how the politics in Seed is any better. What's the point of politics when you've got a super-robot masquerading in a poorly executed 'real world'? If they didn't spend so much time showing how invincible Kira and co. were, maybe I would've been able to take the politics in Seed a little more seriously.

And you say Zeta is just a bunch of guys shooting the Gundam (which I totally disagree); then what exactly was Seed with its auto-aim super spray Gundam and one shot kill grunts? It's like i'm missing something...but I know what I saw when I watched Seed and Destiny...

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

I think the problem lies in that your standard for war-anime involves huge world war II era type of action. As it is, Zeta involves a rebel force up against a dominant faction of a large federation. There are no large scale buildups of force. And like I said before there's the sci-fi element of space, mobile suits and human evolution thrown into the mix, something that hasn't appeared in realtime battle yet

QFT...

It's like i'm missing something...

QFT²...

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

Where? That's certainly not the impression I got comparing the two. And that's after watching them back to back.

I have the feeling that we watch for very different things in anime. In Mobile Suit Gundam, there's a sense of each major operation flowing naturally into the next. Odessa was a major momentum-turning point for Federation fortunes, Jaburo was Zeon's poorly planned counter, and so on and so forth.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

I don't see the need to know their whereabouts all the time. You know they participated in Jaburo and you know they showed up at the end defending the base. I've yet to check out Galactic Heroes or Glass Fleet, but I highly doubt there's one guy telling you the whereabouts of every single unit in their military. Like I said, the level of detail you're describing is more suited for documentaries. For an anime or movie to apply that level of detail and make it enjoyable with a story to boot, would be quite masterful IMO.

You're creating a false dilemma between knowing the whereabouts of the main forces "at all times" and "never outside of major operations". It's not exactly difficult for some dialogue to tell us how well those other guys did at the L1 point or something like that. All I'm looking for is some sort of acknowledgement that AEUG's other forces exist and are doing something. An indication as to their numbers would be nice as well. It needn't be hard to do at all.

Legend of Galactic Heroes often does tell you (in exhaustive detail) what the different forces are up to, but it's narrative and tone are very different from Gundam, so I wouldn't expect that in other shows. I only talked Glass Fleet because it's very much based on Legend of Galactic Heroes and because I saw it very recently. You needn't bring it up in any arguments.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

Exactly, their in the thick of war. So how can you say that the effects of war weren't present? If you felt that most the details of war were unimportant, then you're obviously saying Zeta is not a good anime in your opinion, since the entire series focuses on this war/conflict.

My point is that even though they're in the middle of a war, it doesn't feel like it at all.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

Having the youth fight in a conflict isn't anything new. And just because they're willing to fight doesn't mean they did so on little more than a whim. All of the characters ambitions and ideals are all clearly seen. In fact, the character that meets your definition the closest may be Reccoa, and there's even a background behind that. So saying there's no substance behind these characters I think is unfair, especially when gundam focuses on them so much.

I'm not talking about their age at all. I'm simply giving you my impression of their characters. Note that I didn't imply that there's no substance to those characters. Unlike some posters, I assign no value statements based on age (or apperance of age). The fact is that they tend to be self-absorbed and incapable of much empathy for the people around them. Also, their "reasons" for fighting are extremely flimsy; and often contradicted by their actions.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

But I there's a difference between those two terms. I don't think you have to use guerilla warfare to be a rebel insurgency, at least not in the conventional sense that you are referring to.

What's the difference?

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

In fact, I think the problem lies in that your standard for war-anime involves huge world war II era type of action.

How many times do I have to tell you that it's not? Smaller conflicts can be every bit as interesting and intense as larger ones. Scale is the least of Zeta's problems. Also, the fact that it's science fiction has absolutely nothing to do with my arguments. Starship Operators is some ways even smaller-scale than Zeta (and it obviously has starships), but it's much better as far as being a war story goes. By the way, please stop attributing arguments I didn't make to me.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

I obviously saw differently. Again, I get the impression you want some linear military movement, or at least some X's and O's drawn on some board. As AEUG isn't a nation or a large force, you're not going to get the same linear plotline as you would in MSG. The White Base simply wasn't asked to do as much as the Argama.

You're attributing again. White Base's actions aren't necessarily what made Mobile Suit Gundam a war anime. The snippets we get from the rest of the war are just as important.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

You misunderstand, since the Newtype has become such an integral part of Gundam by Zeta, the series would HAVE to present itself differently if the newtype never existed. It would go past just making the series more realistic.

You're the one that's misunderstanding. I hardly expect the UC Gundam shows to go without Newtypes. I'm just saying that, as a hypothetical, Gundam shows in general would have been more realistic without them; and that this would have little bearing on whether they are considered war stories. If I were referring to the 0079 show, I would have spelled it out as "Mobile Suit Gundam".

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

Completely natural in a documentary. Many movies and media depicting war that would be considered war-movies or war-anime by the majority don't have people stating facts and numbers like a textbook. We "guess" all the time. Like I said, its called reading in between the lines. What is more interesting? A narrator saying Rob has been cheating on Bob, or a scene in which Bob finds someone elses underwear in Rob's bed?

Do you really think that a subordinate giving a report to his superior officer is only natural in a documentary?

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

I'm actually answering all your questions with a high degree of confidence and thought, and I've been using concrete examples to back up my point. It is YOU that have not been helping by throwing around words like 'lack of purpose' or 'sense of immediacy' without proper explanation. I'm going to ASSUME this is just an unintentional shot at my opinions and not go any further than that. In the meantime, I'm going to find a way to acquire Legend of Galactic Heroes and Glass Fleet.

I posed new questions, so where are your answers? I didn't really think that my terms needed defining, but I don't mind doing so.

A non-episodic show needs a framework in order for the viewer to know what's going on and how the events on-screen relate to the overall universe and work. Without such a framework, it's hard to gauge how important any event is, and how they're tied together. This latter situation is what I would describe as a "lack of purpose": when events happen without any concrete reason, with little in the way of preceding events, or exploration of the ramifications.

"Sense of immediacy" is when we have a good idea about the stakes of a situation; both regarding how the consequences of failure and success. Coupled with this is a sense of urgency, tension and risk. Adventure shows tend not to have much in the way of either, but they're rather more necessary for war stories.

It's always good for more people to watch Legend of Galactic Heroes, but I wouldn't expect too much from Glass Fleet. You may be better off hunting down a copy of Starship Operators.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

Are you serious?! If 4Tran views the politics in Zeta to be dummied down, then I can't imagine how the politics in Seed is any better. What's the point of politics when you've got a super-robot masquerading in a poorly executed 'real world'? If they didn't spend so much time showing how invincible Kira and co. were, maybe I would've been able to take the politics in Seed a little more seriously.

On the contrary. I don't think that the politics in Zeta are "dumbed down" (I hate that phrase) at all, I just think that they're very poorly written. I actually consider the Seed shows to be among the better written Gundam TV shows, but that a line of argument for a different topic.

[avmoghe]

Not a single Gundam show qualifies as a "war" anime in my opinion. The show that comes the closest (but certainly does not make it into the "war" show category) would be 0080 or the *premise* (not execution) of 0083. The only clarification I must make is that I have not seen Turn A- and cannot make any claims about it.

The closest thing to a "war" anime I've seen has been Legend of the Galactic heroes - and it has its share of absurdities (perhaps this was because the anime was not translated well from the novels). Very select portions of Banner of the stars may enter the discussion as well.

In general, Gundam shows are far too focused on shiny Gundams, pretty colors, teenager emotional problems, fancy "let my newtype ghosts/psychic powers/special seed/badass gundam/_insert special ability_ kick your ass" aspects. The "politics" that I've seen in Gundam shows is half baked and laughable.

Still, being a "war" anime is certainly no prerequisite for an enjoyable drama. If you want a true war show - I suggest watching something like Band of Brothers.

[Crusader]

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

Are you serious?! If 4Tran views the politics in Zeta to be dummied down, then I can't imagine how the politics in Seed is any better. What's the point of politics when you've got a super-robot masquerading in a poorly executed 'real world'? If they didn't spend so much time showing how invincible Kira and co. were, maybe I would've been able to take the politics in Seed a little more seriously.

And you say Zeta is just a bunch of guys shooting the Gundam (which I totally disagree); then what exactly was Seed with its auto-aim super spray Gundam and one shot kill grunts? It's like i'm missing something...but I know what I saw when I watched Seed and Destiny...

A strong majority of the battles in zeta, seemingly consist of lets go shoot the enemy until it's time to retreat, which made it boring, i can barely stand most of the battles in that series, except for a few. Especially when jerid and co had thier limelight. with newtypes that can sense thier enemies every move, and overcome them with thier special powers.

Whats so "real world" about Zeta?

Titans organized by the federation, we hunt federation enemies. Later though we try to make an alliance with the enemies we're funded to hunt, to beat our enemies that are practically funded by the same government we are.

[Blaat]

Actually by that time the EF stopped funding the Titans.

To be fair though no Gundam had a "realistic" political situation since... well... the OYL war really.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by avmoghe

The closest thing to a "war" anime I've seen has been Legend of the Galactic heroes - and it has its share of absurdities (perhaps this was because the anime was not translated well from the novels). Very select portions of Banner of the stars may enter the discussion as well.

I wouldn't define war anime as strictly as you do, but there's a lot of truth in what you say. There really aren't very many shows that can be accurately given that term. The reason I created this thread is because I've seen a lot of people requesting recommendations for war anime, and inevitably, people will bring up Gundam shows as examples.

As for other shows that could qualify, I'd say that Starship Operators is a pretty good take on space warfare (much more realistic than Legend of Galactic Heroes). For a less futuristic show, Zipang is a decent choice, even if the commentary on World War II is sort of ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Crusader

A strong majority of the battles in zeta, seemingly consist of lets go shoot the enemy until it's time to retreat, which made it boring, i can barely stand most of the battles in that series, except for a few. Especially when jerid and co had thier limelight. with newtypes that can sense thier enemies every move, and overcome them with thier special powers.

You've encapsulated some of my feelings very well. In particular, the battles just weren't very compelling; half of them seemed to be there just for the sake of providing action for that week's episode.

Oh, and by the way, I would say that the Newtype powers were all that impressive; they were neither all that pervasive nor that reliable - Haman couldn't even tell if Quattro had died or not, for example.

[avmoghe]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Oh, and by the way, I would say that the Newtype powers were all that impressive; they were neither all that pervasive nor that reliable - Haman couldn't even tell if Quattro had died or not, for example.

Not impressive or reliable? How many times did Kamille dodge danger (not just danger to himself, but others as well) due to being warned off by his newtype sense? The entire climax and resolution of Zeta Gundam is one giant orgy of fancy newtype powers - mentally controlling funnels, telepathy, dragonball-Z type psychic "auras", frying people's minds, using ghosts to attack and completely disable someone's mobile suit, creating impenetrable newtype-power shields, etc

Newtype powers are certainly impressive, and reliable enough to kick in when times are desparate (unless you're speaking about impressive in terms of liking the show).

Actually, I forgot to mention one additional Gundam entry that comes close to "war anime" category - MS Igloo.

[wingdarkness]

Not impressive or reliable? How many times did Kamille dodge danger (not just danger to himself, but others as well) due to being warned off by his newtype sense?

Only the entire damn series ...

[avmoghe]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Only the entire damn series ...

Yup - I believe the series even shows flashes of white light on the screen to signify this every time a character uses the newtype sense. I recall a plethora of white flashes.

In either case, I'm in agreement with 4Tran that Zeta Gundam fails miserably at being a 'war' anime. I just disagree about the newtype powers being characterized as 'unimpressive and unreliable'.

Portions of MS Igloo, 0080, and the premise of 0083 come closest to any sort of a war anime. Gundam is essentially a soap opera with fancy powers and machines (newtype,seeds,colorful gundams) haphazardly thrown into a backdrop 'war' scenario.

I believe the creator of Gundam Seed described the show as a 'robot anime' - that description is apt for any Gundam show IMO.

[Crusader]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Oh, and by the way, I would say that the Newtype powers were all that impressive; they were neither all that pervasive nor that reliable - Haman couldn't even tell if Quattro had died or not, for example.

If anything, Zeta made me sick of newtypes, becuase of the over use and sheer nonsensical battle rape they unleashed on thier enemies. The bio whatever was just there for dues ex machina reasons. Seriously, it only kicked in when he fought guys who proved themselves far more superior. Yazan gets the super long pink beam saber of doom. Then Bunhead is stopped becuase Dead women have sided against him, and the O magically shuts down. Thats newtype power for ya. i could go on but i think you get my drift.

Haman was only one newtype, but her not sensing Char is more in the hands of the writers, but thats another subject.

[kaito-kid]

I have never watched a UC serie before, so I don't know what a UC newtype can do or what it really is, but it sounds like a even bigger bull$hit then the SEED factor...


and btw, I wonder...what's the difference between UC newtyps and CE newtyps?

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by kaito-kid

I wonder...what's the difference between UC newtyps and CE newtyps?

One exists, one doesn't...from your UC ignorance I'll leave it to you to figure out which one applies to which ...

I have never watched a UC serie before, so I don't know what a UC newtype can do or what it really is, but it sounds like a even bigger bull$hit then the SEED factor...

It's much bigger bull$hit except for the fact it's good bull$hit, with an actual backstory that can be ascertained unlike SEED MODE...It also is nuainced and unlike SEED MODE it isn't a parlor trick that can beat anyone at anytime...It basically grants you supurb reaction time, and helps you predict and read your opponents via their emotions or mindstate...The abilities of newtypes vary as some can totally predict the shot being fired and engage in telepathic psychic relationships (Like Amuro) while others like Char (Who is a weak Newtype) can only use it in the most desperate of situations (Although Char is still quite apt with his powers)...Newtypes like Cammile (Zeta) have the ability to astro-project their ghosts into their Gundam's to charge them with latent energy...Basically UC Newtypes have a reality based sub-story, while CE Newtypes (or psuedo-NT's) are much more vague in nature, not to mention their power seems to be only relevant when both fighters are of CE Newtype decent...