Clannad ~After Story~ - Episode 14 Discussion / Poll

[Sheba]

I think of it that way. We have grown so used to physical display of affection in western romance shows, or the ever out-of-place passionate kiss in a genre (action, horror) not meant for that, that we take the PDA in a romance anime for granted.

So when the director decided to go for another take, not show any PDA, people cringe. I don't know about KyoAni, perhaps the director is not confident enough in his own ability, perhaps he think that doing it would turn Clannad into a George Lucas Love Story (you all watched the Anakin trilogy, you know what I mean).

But the result is here. The audience is polarized, one side welcome it or accept it, the other (very vocal thanks to a minority) flail and call it an outrage. So what's left? We have to trust it on the animators to execute it in the body language of the characters, their glances, etc... We also have to count on the voice actors to convey the right tone for the emotion, to remind us that they are the couple.

[Myssa Rei]

Well, you know me Sheba. I'm perfectly fine with implications and subtle nuances instead of overt expressions of affection.

[Ottocycle]

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

Cultural differences has no part in what I'm addressing here.

You don't go from barely being able to holding each others hands and being fidgety when she's taking a bath and you're sitting cross legged in the living to HAVING A DAMN BABY. There's too much ground missing between those two intervals for me to just happily accept it (or in your case, just get used to it, which of course doesn't really pardon it either).

I know the Japanese can be shy and they take their times with such matters and all that jazz, but I'm not talking about that. My ranting is focused primarily on pacing issues and there being too much to imply on and not enough content to actually enjoy / relish in. We're really freaking missing out.

Well, you did bold the 'not sleeping in the same bed', so I'm just trying to tell you that what they had in this episode isn't much of a difference from sleeping in the same bed in their culture. They just need to sleep in the same room, without any barrier, to show the Japanese audience(not us) an example of the married couple behaviour that you've been saying that is missing.

Besides, with this young couple scrimping and saving, that little difference is nothing compared to their need for financial freedom. And that of course determines their pick between buying a two-person futon, and a one-man one.

As for the pacing, I agree with Sheba. The perspective one holds before watching a show is kind of critical to how he will enjoy it(or not). In this case I guess we could say that 'Romantic development is in the eye of the beholder'.

[Rice_slayer]

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

I dunno, kisses or intimate hugging isn't really that much of a stretch (it happened in the game before the wedding, but yeah, again, it's all implied in the anime), but a full nookie pre-wedding is. Tomoya, as far as he's been characterized in the show doesn't seem to be the type to be thinking with his groin, unlike some other male leads we've been exposed to...

Are you implying of a certain Mankoto I honestly don't get the pacing either, but If you read between the lines, they do show lots of intimacy. The whole scene when he is walking home from work and sees nagisa. I know they won't show making out in this show, but I think they tried to say they were going to when Nagisa said she wants a baby. They probably did it right after that, I know I would have

[Master Chibi]

Ok, maybe outrage at the need to imply all the real romantic happenings is overboard, but you have to admit that the show couldn't actually NOT benefit from such things.

:P

[SageGaiGar]

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

Ok, maybe outrage at the need to imply all the real romantic happenings is overboard, but you have to admit that the show couldn't actually NOT benefit from such things.

:P

A valid point, but it's something we've read/seen countless times before. If anything this has been one of the more 'conservative' shows.

It is kind of mind blowing that he isn't completely thinking with his other 'head'. 'In my romantic comedy? GTFO.' This season's definitely taken a slide more towards slice of life and drama, with enough comedy bits from Akio to balance it out a little. The comedy is the sugar frosting, just enough to sweeten it up.

A while back someone mentioned the connection between marriage and gambling, it probably has to do with arranged marriages. You never quite knew who you were going to end up with. And either the couple connected or they didn't. Or they made an effort to connect anyway. Some couple end up together under almost 'shotgun wedding' like circumstances yet manage to eventually become a meaningful couple, despite their quirks. Does this make sense?

[Vegard Aune]

...Wow, I knew that part at the end of the episode would be coming sooner or later, but I really didn't expect it THIS soon, nor did I think it would be portrayed so... comically... Not that I'm complaining, it just surprised me. Apart from that, Akio was awesome, the scenes of Tomoya and Nagisa together were cute, and for once, the ending actually felt apropriate. I'd give this episode a 9/10, which is a step down from last week, but hey, one can't expect EVERY episode to be perfect... Now, I'm expecting the last 10 episodes to be utterly flawless! (Contradicting yourself is awesome, by the way.)

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

I dunno, kisses or intimate hugging isn't really that much of a stretch (it happened in the game before the wedding, but yeah, again, it's all implied in the anime), but a full nookie pre-wedding is. Tomoya, as far as he's been characterized in the show doesn't seem to be the type to be thinking with his groin, unlike some other male leads we've been exposed to...

Although, in the game, the player is given the option...

Nagisa's taking a shower. Her underwear is on the floor...
>Take them
>Don't

Nagisa's gone out...
>Go through her underwear drawer
>Don't

Akio is offering me a choice...
>Take his porn
>Take Sanae's underwear
>Take neither

Man, it's hot outside... I wonder if girls still smell nice when they're sweating...
>SCIENCE!
>Leave her alone

[Janey777]

I suggest that authors merely want to display a truly pure platonic relationship. Okazaki's union is still beautiful as it is, without any physical content implied. They made a FAMILY and learning how to deal with each other in that way and handle various situations. Remember that most animes with romance don't go this far - no marriage follows, and parents are usually not involved. Family is the main subject - of this episode and Clannad in a whole. That makes it Unique, since ecchi stuff is already overdone in other series.

Plus, the way a "sleep-over" fact was revealed at the end of the episode is much more amazing other than if we saw some cliche "prelude before doing THIS" scene earlier, don't you think so. The way she confessed it before her parenets and husband... must be one of the most epic scenes in history of the anime
Series is still going, so maybe we will get some kind of intimate scenes in a manner of flashbacks, I suppose

[kk2extreme]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Although, in the game, the player is given the option...

here are my choices

take them

go threw the drawer

take sanae's underwear

SCIENCE

[typhonsentra]

Shouldn't it go without saying a married couple is having sex? Again the problem isn't that the romance isn't shown, the problem is that what is shown is what you'd normally associate with a very young couple at the beginning of their relationship. Not newlyweds who have been dating for 2 years.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by typhonsentra

Shouldn't it go without saying a married couple is having sex? Again the problem isn't that the romance isn't shown, the problem is that what is shown is what you'd normally associate with a very young couple at the beginning of their relationship. Not newlyweds who have been dating for 2 years.

This is Japan, for one thing...

For another, in the game, Tomoya and Nagisa are less physically intimate than any other pairing, although they at least have SOME physical contact.

I think the important thing is that they love each other, really.

[typhonsentra]

I really don't see how this taking place in Japan would matter in this particular case.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by typhonsentra

I really don't see how this taking place in Japan would matter in this particular case.

Uh...

I just won't go here. Someone will get offended somehow.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by typhonsentra

I really don't see how this taking place in Japan would matter in this particular case.

The location is relevant because the culture is drastically different, until you believe US culture is the norm (which is absolutely not).

Japanese are known to be extremely prude, and you don't see much active sex activities in a conjugal situation (the demography is aging very badly recently).
Of course, you do have "normal couples", but there are a lot of couples that can't even have sex more than once a month or something.
That applies as well for intimate and affection etc (remember folks: you don't kiss right in the open in Japan. You don't even talk about your girlfriend/boyfriend etc openly etc).

So please remove the idea that "the vision of a couple" you have must be applied in a fiction, especially if it is based on some totally different culture.

[Master Chibi]

You people have to stop using 'It's taking place' in Japan as a fallback to what we're complaining / talking about.

My biggest gripe is the pacing. It's awful. All the real important stuff, her actually finishing high school, her dream with the drama club, actual, honest to god displays of affection, are just being withheld from us, and all we're being given is the end result. There's as much to love about the end result as there should be with the journey it took to get there, but we are being denied of that. If people have invested this much time to care for the characters, at the very least we want to actually see the characters care for each other just a little tiny bit.

And noone is talking about 'ecchi' / pornographic stuff either. No one's asking Tomoya to jump into the shower to bonk Nagisa behind a curtain in the anime. I've already brought up that body language goes a very, very long way in these instances, and it can be applied without having any sexual overtones to it at all. Toradora and To Aru Majutsu no Index have done this on several occasions, and it's done wonders in displaying the workings of the relationships in said shows.

Clannad has steered, far, far, far away from even that, and again, in terms of actually telling the story it feels like horribly wasted potential. I'm not asking for them to be all over each other, I'm not asking for them to kiss one another every two seconds, or to act like drunk in love newlyweds.

I'm just asking for SOMETHING because we really haven't been given ANYTHING and that's a shame. The first time I've come across a show to go this far in an established relationship with two characters and it still feels like it's lacking so much.

[Beo]

Its sort of sad, just because its not going as you wish you have a fit. No amount of arguing or badgering is going to change the show. Ether you are going to like it or not and if someone else has a different like or dislike, it does not mean ether of you are right or wrong.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

I'm just asking for SOMETHING because we really haven't been given ANYTHING and that's a shame. The first time I've come across a show to go this far in an established relationship with two characters and it still feels like it's lacking so much.

Seriously, go play the game. You'd love it.

It also does an excellent job of putting the player in Tomoya's position, which I thought was awesome.

[Proto]

To be truthful to a more moderate level I'm with Master Chibi in that I'm disappointed in how KyoAni has treated the physical affection between the couple.(Quoting myself, there is a difference between 'just a little', and 'subtle' and 'plain nothing', 'nada' and non existent.) I still see one or two ways in which they could fix this, but somehow I don't see it coming. Aw well.

[Klashikari]

That is the same for me (I did complain as well for the "stingy" side of it) and advocating with the game content is moot point here.
However, I believe there is also a very strong problem in term of culture in this storytelling, as some people can't picture "a couple unable to hug/kiss right on the open suddenly able to have sex".
That is, the problem is how the anime series is using many flashforwards and thus certainly reduced a lot further implicit hints that could have been used (such like both being very uneasy earlier than that point of the plot).

But aside of that, it is rather how the perspective of some is satisfied with the implicit alone or not.
That is, it is quite ironic that most noted many scenes that they could kiss and the like, though the series didn't show that. That shows how much the mood and both are working for such kind of relationship, yet the animators just don't use a face value event.