Madoka Magica - Episode 07 Discussion / Poll

[Hooves]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Why not lonely girls in orphanages? That alone could easily give Kyubey an army of magical girls.

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

Yes, why not? There might be an army of magical girls yet - it has been confirmed that there are other magical girls out there.

Just a thing to throw out.. How exactly will he recruit people who can't even see him? Will he appear as this mysterious stalker to them that will scare them into thinking it's the bogeyman? Well he speak to them appearing as a saint in their own imagination? I'm not even sure they can hear him yet alone see him. Of course this could have just been a sarcastic opinion you guys put out.

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

All we know is the people who Kyubey has contracted were, at the moment of their contraction, very sad.

I agree with the opinion that it was the "victims" fault, but also think Kyubey is to be at blame as well (like a 50:50).

Firstly, Kyubey can create miracles that is a proven fact, and that wish can create happiness, but there is an equal sadness to be conflicted with this happiness. Mami made the wish to save her life, but living as magical girl, she has been lonely for the majority of her life as a magical girl. Sayaka wished for Kamijo's recovery, but now is conflicted with Hitomi going to tell Kamijo that she loves him. Although this is a strange development, I have some opinions about it, but I'll discuss with those opinions after this. Kyouko wished for people to join her father's church, but her father found out and went on a ballistic rampage on how his own daughter became a witch (in his own opinion)

Mami had a redeeming quality at episode 3 before her unfortunate demise, Madoka was the savior here with relieving Mami of her own sadness. The magical girls are conflicted with this own sadness that they have brought upon themselves, and it's becoming a great burden for all of them. I believe that a redeeming quality will come their way eventually if they don't perish by then.

The girls made these wishes on their own will, or were stressed and worried about the situation they were in that they "made their own mind up" and went full out with the dangers they have somewhat saw. Of course Mami din't know of the dangers of being a magical girl, nor did Kyouko. But I think that Kyubey din't tell Sayaka about the dangers of being a magical girl is because he thought that Mami explained "enough" to get those without a strong will to back down. If he told them that he will take their souls and stuff it in a pendant... Would you join? Nooooo....

Kyubey is at fault because of his sudden appearance right when the girls need to wish the most... Why does Kyubey appear right when Mami is on the verge of death? Why does Kyubey appear right when Kyouko wanted to help her father the most? Why does he appear when Kamijo just went on a mental breakdown, leaving a poor Sayaka to be saddened? He has no understanding of human emotions (as seen in episode 6) so he would not know what they would wish for, or see the situation they were in. But for some reason, he is always there when they need to wish the most... I don't know about Mami or Kyouko, but ever since Sayaka and Madoka met Kyubey, their lives have been changed very thoroughly.

He tempts girls with a "wish" in order to keep them interested on the subject, not knowing of the full danger they are going to be in (even if they may have had hints from others, or Kyubey warned them about some things) A miracle when they most need it, that alone will keep them from rejecting it only when they truly want to use it. I would be surprised if a girl actually refused Kyubey's tempting offer.

*munches on melon bread* Nipaaaa

[Triple_R]

Hooves - Just so you know, that wasn't a sarcastic comment on my part. It was a serious point.


One thing I'll concede here - It's possible that wishes in this universe function like alchemy does in Full Metal Alchemist.

In other words, the concept of equivalent exchange is always at play. Happiness and sadness are kept in overall balance.

So, if a wish gives you immediate happiness, then you have to pay for that happiness with an equivalent degree of sadness later (which can happen simply through the hardships of being a magical girl, of course).

Perhaps in a sense, a wish in this anime is like a bank loan. You get one big lump sum of money with a bank loan that you have to slowly pay back in smaller parts. With a wish, you get a big immediate jump in happiness (just as Sayaka clearly did), and then you slowly pay it back in smaller parts of sadness (as Sayaka is doing now).

It's interesting that Kyoko seems reasonably happy now. Perhaps that's because she's "paid off" the "happiness bank loan".

It's also interesting how Mami suggested to Madoka that Madoka should wish for a cake. A cake would only bring slight happiness, so the sadness payback for that would also be very slight.


Now, this is just speculation, but it's something I think might be worth putting out there.

It's not quite the same as a monkey's paw, because a monkey's paw generally isn't equivalent.

[Deconstructor]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I'd have to conclude that she was lying to Madoka, then, and that is a step I am not willing to make at this time, since there is no evidence of it. You're arguing based on your belief from from a notion. You're trying to make the theory fit, instead of letting the facts make the theory.

Again, I will point out the obvious fallacy involved here:

"Murderers drink water, therefore water makes one a murderer."
"Tragedy happened after wishes, therefore wishes must cause tragedy."

If you wish to attack me on a logical level, then I will deconstruct your supposed fallacy and show that it is not as simple as your one-line analogy.

"Tragedy happened after wishes, therefore wishes must cause tragedy."

To accurately portray my argument, re-write it as this:

"Tragedy happened after a depressed girl made a wish, therefore a depressed girl making a wish must cause tragedy."

It has not been disproven. We agree that Kyoko fits the bill. You may dispute whether Sayaka initially fit the bill, but we agree that she was miserable at the point of her contraction. Madoka, if we say not to be sad enough, has not made the contract. Mami, who was about to die, is also agreed upon.

You might say that the two are not related, but it's a conclusion reached from evidence. If you wish to attack my argument, you must do so on a level of counter-examples.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Hitomi is a well-to-do girl from a wealthy family. She's not really a good counterexample here.

That's true.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

But not when Kyubey first offered to contract with here.

My main point is that Kyubey makes contracts with very depressed girls, and at the moment of contraction, Sayaka fit.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

We haven't seen many non-magical girl girls in this anime, period.

The whole school. The people who nearly committed suicide. The girls drawn to fill up space.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

This anime is aiming for a certain degree of realism. This is clearly not an idealistic magical girl anime (at least not in a conventional "start to finish" way). There's no reason whatsoever to believe that the average girl in this anime universe is happier than the average girl in the real world.

So, if we work off of the real world, Sayaka's situation is simply not that usually bad.

The instant you go outside of the anime is the instant I stop arguing about it.
I thought Sayaka was sad because she was bawling her eyes out.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Maybe because he doesn't go out of his way to target the most depressed girls around?

"Tragedy happened after a depressed girl made a wish, therefore a depressed girl making a wish must cause tragedy."

It has not been disproven. We agree that Kyoko fits the bill. You may dispute whether Sayaka initially fit the bill, but we agree that she was miserable at the point of her contraction. Madoka, if we say not to be sad enough, has not made the contract. Mami, who was about to die, is also agreed upon.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well, by this rationale, there might be a happy-go-lucky magical girl brigade out there that functions like the classic Power Rangers.

Both of this is pure speculation, of course.

Indeed. You were the one who initially went down that line of thinking to refute my comment.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

But not all of them were sad when Kyubey first met them, and offered to contract with them.

But in the end, were they not all sad?
I said that Kyubey makes contracts with sad people. I did not say that they had to be sad to begin with. You may have a point in saying that they were not initially sad, but that doesn't address my main point.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

LOL! The signature is just for a laugh.

In any event, why should Kyubey's Legal Defense Team make concessions while the far larger Prosecuting side refuses to make many themselves?

Hey, hey... this isn't a courtroom, this is a forum!
There's not going to be a winner or loser unless one of us convinces the other. That will probably never happen until the anime explicitly states "Kyubey is evil."

Originally Posted by Hooves

I agree with the opinion that it was the "victims" fault, but also think Kyubey is to be at blame as well (like a 50:50).

Absolutely. If the victim was at fault for living a sad life, then it's also Kyubey's fault for seeking that victim out and deceiving them.

[PastPrime]

Originally Posted by Mentar

If you reduce "Monkey Paw" to this narrow and irrelevant detail, then fine - Sayaka's outcome was no "true" MP. Kyoko's outcome still was. But since not even the term MP was mentioned in the show, it's so TOTALLY pointless to discuss it. The wishes have brought the MGs nothing but misery and suffering, THAT is what's relevant.

1) Madoka and Homura have met before in the past - they know each other (99%)

I stick to that completely.

2) Madoka has been a Magical Girl in the past (66%)

Still stick to that completely. 66% feels about right.

But the wishes of MGs have a strange tendency to backfire, don't they? Always those coincidences...

On the wishes, in almost all the shows that I have seen involving wishes coming true, they seem to backfire in some way. Remember the saying: "Be careful what you wish for, it just might come true."

I think that this was the first time for Madoka and Kyoko to meet Homura, but her first time to meet them is in their future, and her wish was to go into the past so she could prevent Madoka from becoming a magical girl. If that is the case then Homura and Sayaka will probably die during this Walpurgisnacht, with Madoka making a contract in an attempt to save them, but only saving Kyoko. Then, in a future Walpurgisnacht, Modoka dies saving Homura, who she is trying to keep from becoming a Magical Girl, and then Homura makes her contract to go into the past. But, assuming Magical Girls don't age, I could also see her trying to keep Madoka from making the mistake that she made because she was a close friend of Madoka's mother or father. Perhaps a previous Love Triangle where her actions, or inaction, led to the death of someone who was supposed to be her friend.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

The whole school. The people who nearly committed suicide. The girls drawn to fill up space.

We really don't enough about those girls to say if they're more or less sad than Sayaka or not. I mean, who knows what their personal backstory is? I mean, going by just the first episode of this anime, Sayaka comes across as a pretty happy and very well-adjusted young girl.

Hey, hey... this isn't a courtroom, this is a forum!

Even in a forum you can play Devil's Advocate.

Or Kyubey's Advocate.

Indeed, as a joke, I think I'm going to start saying "To play Kyubey's Adovcate..." on any Anime Suki board or thread where I start playing Devil's Advocate, lol.

There's not going to be a winner or loser unless one of us convinces the other. That will probably never happen until the anime explicitly states "Kyubey is evil."

So you're not willing to even admit that you might be wrong about Kyubey? That he might not be evil?

[Hooves]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Hooves - Just so you know, that wasn't a sarcastic comment on my part. It was a serious point.

Oh sorry, I thought it was in a sarcastic way because of the sudden change.

One thing I'll concede here - It's possible that wishes in this universe function like alchemy does in Full Metal Alchemist.

In other words, the concept of equivalent exchange is always at play. Happiness and sadness are kept in overall balance.

So, if a wish gives you immediate happiness, then you have to pay for that happiness with an equivalent degree of sadness later (which can happen simply through the hardships of being a magical girl, of course).

Perhaps in a sense, a wish in this anime is like a bank loan. You get one big lump sum of money with a bank loan that you have to slowly pay back in smaller parts. With a wish, you get a big immediate jump in happiness (just as Sayaka clearly did), and then you slowly pay it back in smaller parts of sadness (as Sayaka is doing now).

It's interesting that Kyoko seems reasonably happy now. Perhaps that's because she's "paid off" the "happiness bank loan".

It's also interesting how Mami suggested to Madoka that Madoka should wish for a cake. A cake would only bring slight happiness, so the sadness payback for that would also be very slight.


Now, this is just speculation, but it's something I think might be worth putting out there.

It's not quite the same as a monkey's paw, because a monkey's paw generally isn't equivalent.

Oh... I wasn't trying to apply Monkey's Paw in this, only read about it once during Reading Improvement, and I know from the past conversations in this thread that it isn't applied to this anime. But that's quite a good comparison and explanation Triple_R. But I don't think Kyoko has paid off her debts, because a wish can go as far as one's life since it can be about anything. Kyoko just merely accepted the fact that she is on her own and everything that she does is for her own benefit, and has accepted everything about being a magical girl as long as she benefits (of course there was that soul incident in episode 6)

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

If you wish to attack me on a logical level, then I will deconstruct your supposed fallacy and show that it is not as simple as your one-line analogy.

"Tragedy happened after wishes, therefore wishes must cause tragedy."

To accurately portray my argument, re-write it as this:

"Tragedy happened after a depressed girl made a wish, therefore a depressed girl making a wish must cause tragedy."

It has not been disproven. We agree that Kyoko fits the bill. You may dispute whether Sayaka initially fit the bill, but we agree that she was miserable at the point of her contraction. Madoka, if we say not to be sad enough, has not made the contract. Mami, who was about to die, is also agreed upon.

You might say that the two are not related, but it's a conclusion reached from evidence. If you wish to attack my argument, you must do so on a level of counter-examples.

The problem is when you say, "It has not been disproven." By that logic, Kyube actually being Chicken Boo but posing as a magical animal for the lulz and that this is really all a video game played by the Flying Spaghetti Monster and in actuality Madoka and the girls are leading a normal MG life with no bad things happening... well, you can't disprove that theory, either.

Going by that logic, I can make up a ton more fantastical theories that can't be disproven, and thus would have equal weight with yours. The problem is a theory should be based off the facts, and if there arises some evidence that would contradict the notion, or make it more awkward, then we should go back and re-evaluate the theory. Ideally, one should be basing a theory on the facts, not on what they'd like it to be. That leads to the dangers of confirmation bias.

So "Tragedy happened after a depressed girl made a wish, therefore a depressed girl making a wish must cause tragedy" is still under the Correlation does not imply Causation banner.

"Because Mami died, Madoka had a breakfast made by her father the next morning." You take two things, one that follows the other, and declare them a theory. If I really set that up as my theory, what would you think?

You're smart, you can pick out interesting things... why tie yourself down to a theory?

[Deconstructor]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

We really don't enough about those girls to say if they're more or less sad than Sayaka or not. I mean, who knows what their personal backstory is? I mean, going by just the first episode of this anime, Sayaka comes across as a pretty happy and very well-adjusted young girl.

True. I was merely attempting to contradict your previous point that we have not seen any normal girls in the anime.

I hope they are all not Puella Magi in disguise.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

So you're not willing to even admit that you might be wrong about Kyubey? That he might not be evil?

Phew... looks like I can sign off with some closure.

I could be wrong.
But it is your job to convince me... and everyone else on this thread.
How successful has your law firm been? :P

EDIT: Ah, crap, another post...

Originally Posted by Kaijo

The problem is when you say, "It has not been disproven." By that logic, Kyube actually being Chicken Boo but posing as a magical animal for the lulz and that this is really all a video game played by the Flying Spaghetti Monster and in actuality Madoka and the girls are leading a normal MG life with no bad things happening... well, you can't disprove that theory, either.

You're smart, you can pick out interesting things... why tie yourself down to a theory?

We should refrain from going into this semantic war and focus solely on the anime. But here's a final comment about it from me.

We can't prove that gravity is -9.8 m/s^2, but we can't disprove it either. We see things falling at that rate, but does that mean all things fall at that rate? Not having the imagination to think of something that could potentially break what we call "truths", I believe, is a limitation. Since the anime is still running, there could be exceptions. Of course, I wouldn't randomly state that a Flying Spaghetti monster exists; it's not an argument I would naturally propose.

I don't think my point is that radical... Kyubey is evil because everyone he contracts is already sad, and they get even sadder afterward. It has, so far, not been disproven. And if it holds for the rest of the anime, I may as well accept it as fact, since there aren't any episodes left for my theory to have relevance.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

I could be wrong.
But it is your job to convince me... and everyone else on this thread.
How successful has your law firm been? :P

Surprisingly effective. Gotten many PMs, VMs, and otherwise from people who have thanked us for our contribution. And people like MeoTwister who just asked for ethical neutrality. :P

Our whole goal hasn't been to convince people that Kyube is innocent; merely that the possibility for both ways still exists, and to try and keep an open mind until the end. In that light, many people have realized that.

Just try to keep in mind, the next time you run into someone with different views who won't change his mind no matter what, that you don't really want to be that guy...

We can't prove that gravity is -9.8 m/s^2, but we can't disprove it either. We see things falling at that rate, but does that mean all things fall at that rate? Not having the imagination to think of something that could potentially break what we call "truths", I believe, is a limitation. Since the anime is still running, there could be exceptions. Of course, I wouldn't randomly state that a Flying Spaghetti monster exists; it's not an argument I would naturally propose.

It should be noted that Scientific Theory means something different from the term "theory" that we use here (and gravity is a huge subject I could go on at length about). And you really don't want to use science in your argument, because scientists are supposed to be open-minded by nature, not tied to one particular theory. It tends to blind us from seeing things because our preconceived notions block them out. Science lists out facts, proposes a theory and then sees if the theory matches up. If other people point out flaws, the scientist is open-minded enough to go, "Hmm, you're right; I'll have to revise my theory."

Considering you haven't done that yet, you might not really want to go at this from a scientific angle, heh.

I will say, that people who want to discuss particulars, such as Kyube, should probably take their conversation to the right threads. Unless it specifically deals with this episode, we're kinda getting off track. I'll gladly join anyone in another thread to continue.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

True. I was merely attempting to contradict your previous point that we have not seen any normal girls in the anime.

That wasn't my point. My point was that there's few girls within the anime itself that can serve as effective points of comparison.

A bunch of nameless background characters that each have maybe two or three lines in the entire anime are useless for drawing comparisons to named cast members.

Phew... looks like I can sign off with some closure.

I could be wrong.

That's the main thing that Kaijo and I are looking for from the people who believe that "Kyubey is evil". Not that you change your beliefs, necessarily, but just a willingness to admit that the anime might go in a different direction than what you think, ending off with Kyubey being something other than pure evil.

There was an interesting quote from Shinbo that I recently read here.

"Once it ends, I want [the viewers] to watch again one more time. I want to make it a show that you can enjoy watching 12 episodes straight. There might even be some parts that is not understandable without watching it that way. I think it is fun if you watch it once you know how it ends. You can empathize the characters that way, and you can discover something new by watching it from different viewpoint." - Akiyuki Shinbo

Now that strongly suggests to me that there's probably going to be a plot twist near or at the end of this anime, but it will also be a plot twist that was lightly foreshadowed all along, but very easy to miss. Once this plot twist is revealed, it will cause a lot of previous scenes to look very different in retrospect, as well as certain character comments. Now, for Shinbo's sake, I hope that plot twist isn't Kyubey ending up being the big bad of the anime, because if so, his goals here will be an epic failure.


This all reminds me of an older anime I once watched that had a massive plot twist in its third last episode. A plot twist that cast new light on a few scenes from previous episodes; scenes that now come off completely differently than how I originally perceived them. That anime was Kiddy Grade. I'll discuss the plot twist in the spoiler space below:

Spoiler for Major and very lengthy Kiddy Grade spoiler:

For the first half of the anime, there's a very secondary background character, who is the Secretary General of the GOTT - the law enforcement arm of an intergalactic version of the UN, and the organization that our two leading ladies work for. This guy seemingly is just your typical, run-of-the-mill prominent politician type. Doesn't seem to be anything out of the usual with him.

So when I see that he had someone do special surveillance work on our two leading ladies, I naturally assume he's just being the typical fictional corrupt and shady politician type. A poor man's Lex Luthor, if you will.

Later on, he steals a big massive mecha that doubles as a gigantic spaceship. The way scenes involving him play out, you naturally think that this shady guy is now being revealed as the final big bad of the anime (helped by his shady meetings with already established major antagonists).

So, our two heroines are sent after him to try to get the big massive mecha back. At this point, I'm pumped and expecting this guy to be a great "last boss" villain.

So, Eclair and Lumiere (the two heroines) bust into the core control room of this massive mecha/space ship, where the shady guy is waiting for them, grinning smugly and talking at length about the crimes he's committed in life as though he is that villain that I thought he was.


And then BANG! Massive plot twist. Massive revelation.

Our heroines, you see, are actually ageless. And so, this guy in his 50s was once the adopted son of one of our two heroines. After being raised by her for a few years, he was forced to separate form her due to a cruel caste system of sorts. Later on, he found out that his adopted mother (who is ageless, and had her memories wiped at least a couple times, and hence doesn't remember him) works for the GOTT.

So, in order to protect his beloved mother, he gets into politics, and rises to the top spot in the GOTT (a job that forced him to get his hands very dirty). While there, he learns of a nefarious plot by the real villains of this anime, and hence steals the spaceship they intended to use in that plot. He then correctly guesses that his mother (and her partner) will be sent after him as they are top GOTT enforcement officers. He is pleased by this, as it will enable him to personally reveal to them why he did all of this, and also so he'll get to meet his mother one last time.

All of this he did out of sheer love for his mother, and wanting to protect her from the real villains of this show.

And so shady "poor man's Lex Luthor" turns into a boy that just wanted to save his mother. And with that revelation, so many scenes look differently in retrospect.

Who's to say Madoka Magica won't be like this, and Kyubey won't be like the "poor man's Lex Luthor" that I mentioned in that spoiler space above?

That certainly would fit with that Shinbo qoute...

But it is your job to convince me... and everyone else on this thread.

All I want to convince you of is that Kyubey might not be evil. That's all. If you still believe that he's evil, I'm fine with that. It's just that I think it would be good for people to keep an open-mind. That way, any major plot twists will be less jarring for you than that Kiddy Grade plot twist was jarring for me.

How successful has your law firm been? :P

LOL! Good one.

[Elestia]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Our whole goal hasn't been to convince people that Kyube is innocent; merely that the possibility for both ways still exists, and to try and keep an open mind until the end. In that light, many people have realized that.

Really? I've been under the impression that you are saying that QB is not guilty, due to a lack of evidence you refuse to acknowledge and that it's the girls who are to blame instead, hence my patented "Blame the victims, not QB" jab. Cause frankly, you seem to not care if a person's own will is violated in the slightest.

And the people who think QB is evil has got you beat on a numerical sense, judging by the amount of fan art drawn to portray QB as a monster.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

It should be noted that Scientific Theory means something different from the term "theory" that we use here (and gravity is a huge subject I could go on at length about). And you really don't want to use science in your argument, because scientists are supposed to be open-minded by nature, not tied to one particular theory. It tends to blind us from seeing things because our preconceived notions block them out. Science lists out facts, proposes a theory and then sees if the theory matches up. If other people point out flaws, the scientist is open-minded enough to go, "Hmm, you're right; I'll have to revise my theory."

Considering you haven't done that yet, you might not really want to go at this from a scientific angle, heh.

Oh of course scientists are suppose to be open minded. But you have to remember that a scientific theory is tested through natural means. Observable phenomenon is one of the major fundamental cornerstones that make the scientific method possible for explaining natural phenomenons in our reality. By observations and hypothesizing, we begin to take the first steps to creating a theory to satisfactorily explain how the force of attraction works. If all evidence points to to a certain conclusion that fits with the clues and hints, then there is little reason to change their minds, until something dramatic or unexpected happens that flips the theory upside its head.

Saying that there are certain flaws or mistakes in the theory is acceptable, but flatly refusing to accept it because of the small mistakes or not offering their own evidence, instead using a lack of evidence as proof or alternative interpretations as the truth. Like history, we have accounts of diaries, jounrals, entries, personal accounts, witnesses, documents, papers, and a ludicrous amount of sources to draw our evidence from. Even if some of the dates or names are wrong, it doesn't discount the overall direction the evidence points too.

Likewise, when we observe something in the anime. Certain key scenes where a specific characters actions or lines help us form an understanding about a character's personality. This helps us to understand what the character's mentality and supposed intentions are. The theory of QB being an evil presence within the anime holds more ground than say the opposite. Every episode we have seen progressively paints QB as something more sinister, and nothing to show that he is is not evil.

However, by constantly bringing semantics into the equation largely defeats the purpose of speculation within the realm of the show. It's applying the universal principle into a different reality, and trying to use it as evidence fails as a fallacy of composition, wherein something is true of the whole does not hold true for some parts of the whole. We are suppose to consider the character's personal point of view, rather than using our own. But it's fine to use our own personal views in making a prediction based on what we as viewers have observed. But just discounting those observations as a difference in interpretation makes for a poor man's way of arguing. Saying "Oh Madoka is so stupid, I would never do that", or "I wouldn't mind being indestructible, I don't know why Sayaka was so pissed", is biasing one's point of view and seeing things with rose tinted glasses. No matter what a character does, says, or hints at, despite being plainly obvious, people will just interpret it to fit their own personal view point. So it's ironic to say that the people who think QB is "evil" are the one's who should be more open minded, when you seem pretty dead set on your own position, using your "logic" and applying it to the anime.

A lot of the "QB is evil" has pointed out many oblique statements made by the characters, hints, and clues the foreshadow what will happen next, then formed those theories based on it. But the "QB defense" team seems just content to say we're wrong "just because" basis. Hell Mentar's predictions have easily trumped your predictions, which is nothing wasn't very hard to do.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Elestia

Really? I've been under the impression that you are saying that QB is not guilty, due to a lack of evidence you refuse to acknowledge and that it's the girls who are to blame instead, hence my patented "Blame the victims, not QB" jab. Cause frankly, you seem to not care if a person's own will is violated in the slightest.

Nope. If you've gotten that impression, allow me to set you straight, since you might have missed my many other posts stating this. Both Kyube AND the girls share some blame. I don't see either one as evil, yet. If evidence comes up proving that, then I'll agree to such. Not before then.

If you were in a criminal trial, you'd like people to wait to hear the full evidence, before deciding your guilt or innocence, right?

And the people who think QB is evil has got you beat on a numerical sense, judging by the amount of fan art drawn to portray QB as a monster.

Heh, could be just a few people churning out a lot, or someone who doesn't believe it, but has fun torturing Kyueb anyway. I don't suppose you've noticed Triple-R's avatar. It kinda conflicts with sig, don't it? Figure that one out.

Saying that there are certain flaws or mistakes in the theory is acceptable, but flatly refusing to accept it because of the small mistakes or not offering their own evidence, instead using a lack of evidence as proof or alternative interpretations as the truth.

Actually, we tend to offer up our own proof. Check Deconstructor's post, and you'll note he asks for the theory to be disproven... not proven. That implies right there that people know the theory isn't proven at all. Hell, most of the mods here agree with Triple_R and I. That might tell you something. ;p

So it's ironic to say that the people who think QB is "evil" are the one's who should be more open minded, when you seem pretty dead set on your own position, using your "logic" and applying it to the anime.

And this is where I'm really wondering if you're reading my posts. Time and time again, we have said our mind will change if the evidence points to that. To date, I am the only person on this forum subsection, to offer up plausible scenarios that would convince me Kyube is evil.

So, I ask you, like I have asked others before, can you do the same? Will you make the exact same promise with me, to stay open minded until the series is over? Oh, and openly state now, what plausible scenarios would change your mind.

If you answer nothing else, answer this. You can ignore everything else, but that that paragraph above is the most important. If, however, you feel you just can't be open-minded, feel free to say that, too. I get the feeling you don't want to admit that, though, and instead try to paint me as closed-minded, so that you feel safe being close-minded yourself. I'd be real sad if you honestly believed that, and I don't know what else I can say to convince you. Perhaps you could help me out, and let me know what I might be able to do, to convince you I am open-minded.

[garbage]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

In your life, you have agreed to an End User License Agreement. I'm willing to bet you never really read the fine print on all of them, didn't you? You'd be surprised what rights you surrender and what you're agreeing to. By your own logic, then, you've been snookered.

Unfortunately, the courts would rule against you. You had the chance to find out what was involved before you signed your name. I'd suggest you look at Read the Fine Print. Also, perhaps you missed it in my many previous posts, but I hold equal blame for Kyube and Sayaka. Kyube for not telling, and Sayaka for not reading the fine print. To argue Sayaka blameless, is to argue that personal responsibility means nothing. Which means I can come over and smack you up all I want, and I can just say, "Hey, I'm not responsible. It's not he told me he didn't want to be smacked..."

Hate to jump in on a discussion of this sort, but just want to point out you cant really use this as an example because

1) EULA is written down and CAN be read, it is always offered first. it's just that no one does ^^
it would be similar if QB did in fact gave out the information (maybe in a really really low voice to simulate fine print ) but just that the girls didn't listen, ignored it, or didn't understand it. but he didn't (now why are we actually using real world Law in magical setting? hmm oh well...)

2) There have been cases that even with the signed contract the signer WILL WIN in court, actually a lot. this is most often in cases where existing greater Laws takes precedent. but also if the contract itself is flawed. the highest form of course is if you prove that the contract is in fact UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

the Bill of Rights is in the constitution exactly because it's one of the most basic societal contract AND a lot of people don't know their own rights. and may not even think to ask questions or points, ESPECIALLY in cases regarding MINORS and those with disabilities. so with regards to your example. nope you will get a lawsuit because your infringing on a person's rights by "smacking" him and hurting him irregardless of the person asking if he can be smacked or not (don't know if who'll win tho, that's for the court to decide depending on the contract itself like why you need to smack him in the first place and other pertinent factors). Now for a couple of posts now and ever since ep1-2 I've been asking why the hell are the girls not asking QB anything, but not asking does not equate GIVING UP their rights.

BTW I'm not in the QB is evil camp
I'm not in QB is good camp
I'm not even in the QB is a morally gray army recruiter camp
I'm in the QB is QB camp,& sure as hell not going to judge without further info. (which is not to say i don't have any opinions. I definitely don't like his methods now, even if it turns out s/he/it is on the "good" side working for the wonderful side of humanity )

makes me just cringe at the amount of text walls regarding this, but its the people's right to voice their opinion in a FORUM. The amount just shows how much they enjoy the show , but can we please a have a little reservation and be straight to the point and not go circular for all our sakes ^^ please please thanks

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Nope. If you've gotten that impression, allow me to set you straight, since you might have missed my many other posts stating this. Both Kyube AND the girls share some blame.

Agreed.


Kaijo and I are not saying that Kyubey's a "nice guy". Not at all.

He's not a nice guy. Nice guys don't do what he does.

But there's a big difference between just "not a nice guy", and "evil". At least in my opinion there is.

Most, if not all, of what we've seen Kyubey do so far would fit quite comfortably within the framework of an anti-hero character type.

It's true that Kyubey is being somewhat deceptive in the methods he uses to contract magical girls. This is obviously not entirely fair or just for the girls that he contracts with.

However, there was a major event in Star Trek that was hardly entirely fair or just to the Romulans either...

Spoiler for Major Star Trek: DS9 spoiler:

Captain Benjamin Sisko, the lead protagonist of this show, worked alongside former Obsidian Order operative/spy/interrogator - re: torturer - Garak in order to intentionally deceive the Romulans into entering into the Dominion War, on the side with the Federation and the Klingons against the Dominion and the Cardassians.

They did this by falsifying evidence against the Dominion leadership.

Very shady methods here, easily comparable to the methods employed by Kyubey (indeed, Kyubey's methods are arguably much less deceptive in nature), only on an even grander scale.

How many innocent Romulans died as a direct result of the trickery of one Benjamin Sisko? Hundreds? Thousands? Millions?

Does this make Benjamin Sisko "evil"?

The world of fiction is absolutely replete with examples of protagonists using questionable methods in order to achieve a greater good. And not always are such characters cast in an entirely negative light.

So while Kyubey's actions are not nice, they are not exclusively villain actions.

And Kyubey's personality, and motives, remains largely clouded in mystery, with precious little known here for sure.

Are there "bad vibes" surrounding him? Yes, I can definitely see where people are seeing that. But in a concrete sense, these "bad vibes" are like circumstantial evidence. They're not really enough to justify a definitive position on a character. And, in fact, they may be a case of the writers of this anime deliberately misleading the audience in order to setup a big reveal or a big plot-twist (but one that could comfortably fit with what the plot has shown so far).

Heh, could be just a few people churning out a lot, or someone who doesn't believe it, but has fun torturing Kyueb anyway. I don't suppose you've noticed Triple-R's avatar.

My avatar, much like our sig, is mostly meant as a way to have some fun and have a good laugh over the incredibly intense focus (much more than any other character!) Kyubey has received. There's no question that he has become the most prominent anime character of the Winter 2011 anime season.

That is actually mind-blowing to me when I really stop to think about it. Characters of Kyubey's character type are typically after thoughts at most, and a lot of them have done ethically questionable things in their own right.

And this is where I'm really wondering if you're reading my posts. Time and time again, we have said our mind will change if the evidence points to that. To date, I am the only person on this forum subsection, to offer up plausible scenarios that would convince me Kyube is evil.

Just to be clear, I have said in the past that if Kyubey is revealed to be "playing both sides" (i.e. intentionally creating both magical girls and witches) then that would render him evil, imo. And that's one of the leading speculations of those supporting the idea of "Kyubey is evil". So I'm not setting an outrageous standard here in order to agree with "Kyubey is evil".

But what I am saying is that Kyubey simply being a bit of a dick is not enough for me to say that Kyubey is evil.

"Evil" is a very powerful word. There should be pretty high standards, imo, for who gets called "evil".

Look at my avatar. Look at the two non-Kyubey characters in it.

Now they're evil. Is Kyubey really at their level? Based purely on what we've seen so far?

While my avatar is, as I said, meant mostly in jest, it's also there in the hopes that it might spur people to ask themselves that seriously.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by garbage

Hate to jump in on a discussion of this sort, but just want to point out you cant really use this as an example because

1) EULA is written down and CAN be read, it is always offered first. it's just that no one does ^^
it would be similar if QB did in fact gave out the information (maybe in a really really low voice to simulate fine print ) but just that the girls didn't listen, ignored it, or didn't understand it. but he didn't (now why are we actually using real world Law in magical setting? hmm oh well...)

2) There have been cases that even with the signed contract the signer WILL WIN in court, actually a lot. this is most often in cases where existing greater Laws takes precedent. but also if the contract itself is flawed. the highest form of course is if you prove that the contract is in fact UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
s

You have a fair point, as my analogy wasn't 100% perfect. It's difficult to get a fair law analogy, since Kyube's contracts aren't written down. Suffice it to say, the signer is responsible for finding out the full terms. There are some reasons a court will overthrow the contract, but those are generally encoded into law. You can't toss out a contract, simply because you discovered a term in there later that you didn't like. There is some case law on verbal contracts, which are binding and would be the closest equivalent.

But I mainly bring up this reasoning to show why I place blame equally on Kyube and Sayaka. Both hold some responsibility in the matter.

Also, good analogy with Sisko, Triple_R. That was actually one of my favorite episodes, too. Sisko actually had a habit of that. When he was chasing Eddington, Sisko deliberately played the bad guy and poisoned an entire world to get Eddington to turn himself in.

Sisko was the "good" guy, and yet did a heinous act to stop a greater evil. Was Sisko evil? (and DS9 is my favorite Star Trek series ).

[CrowKenobi]

...

Alright, after some thought, I've had a change of heart and the current discussion can continue...

But let's try to keep the responses as short as practical, and use properly labeled spoiler tags for those that aren't.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

That's total nonsense.

How can some of those of the "Kyubey is evil" position keep arguing such utterly obvious nonsense? Just how many times do corrections need to be made here?

Look. There is not a single MG that I know about who found non-temporary happiness by having her wish granted. How many times are you trying to deny this simple fact?

Mami obviously showed great happiness to Madoka when she spoke to her before her final witch fight. Such happiness never happens if not for Mami's wish.

Great job ignoring the fact that she herself stated that she's sitting in her apartment crying and lonely, and that there's nothing good being a MG. That's a quote. Some big happiness that is. We're not talking some fleeting temporary high here. Mami was UNHAPPY. That's why she so wished for Madoka to join her.

Kamijo is obviously a lot happier now than he was before Sayaka made her wish.

Irrelevant. He's no MG and made no wish. We're not talking about outsiders.

Sayaka herself had the happiest moment of her life (by her own admission!) when she was on the rooftop listening to the violin recital by Kamijo.

AND. LOOK. AT. HER. NOW!!! She's literally crying blood, that's how happy she is.

We're not talking about rating a friggen day-long date here, it's the eventual outcome which counts. If some door-to-door salespeople push overpriced loans to penniless people to buy a house well aware that they'll never be able to pay them back, then this might very well the new houseowner's happiest moment in their life, too. And then, barely a few months later, reality will bite them in the ass, and they'll lose their house in foreclosure and be saddled with a lifelong debt. So tell me: In this example, what's more important? A fleeting feeling of happiness due to ignorance, or the lifelong feeling of despair later? Huh?

Before Sayaka was involved in this whole MG mess, she was a bright, cheery girl. Now she's an emotional wreck loathing what she's become without being told, on her way to self-destruction. You can babble about "personal responsibility" or "she didn't ask" all you want, but in the end, it's the simple fact that she made a decision without knowing what she'd be getting into (she said so herself), and the MG business is about to kill her. And strangely, this is exactly what Homura warned Madoka of in ep1. She said she has seen countless MGs perish the same way, and I strongly doubt that she's been lying. This is obviously a very typical outcome, but this is NOT what QB tells them when he tries to contract.

So, please feel free to continue to play corporate lawyer explaining to naive buyers why it's their own fault that they failed to read the small print. Until I see clear evidence to the contrary, I consider the MG business to be a racket to exploit unsuspecting kids created and maintained with malicious intent. The "circumstantial evidence" is way too compelling to ignore for me.

[Scrooge McDuck]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Look. There is not a single MG that I know about who found non-temporary happiness by having her wish granted.

To be fair, I don't think anyone in this whole world would be happy forever just because a single wish of theirs is granted. (well, unless the wish is to be happy forever)

[garbage]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

But I mainly bring up this reasoning to show why I place blame equally on Kyube and Sayaka. Both hold some responsibility in the matter. .

well i wont go so far as equal 50/50 responsibility.hate to put numbers... but lets just say 80 QB/ 20 Sayaka , for the sake of discussions
QB being the one with the Knowledge holds greater resp., aside from the fact that Sayaka is a Minor, and well, has known about the Magical World in lets say less than a month (any figures? anyone know how long have they been doing this?)

.. There are some reasons a court will overthrow the contract, but those are generally encoded into law. You can't toss out a contract, simply because you discovered a term in there later that you didn't like. There is some case law on verbal contracts, which are binding and would be the closest equivalent.

But that's just it, you can! even if a contract is internally binding and consistent. IF you can prove it goes against a previous contract and/or a precedent Law because of that term. yes
But yeah it's really hard with QB's contracts, nothing written , nothing sure
it's not even "verbal" as a lot of times they were just doing their telepathy thing.

on a different tack,all this talk of happiness balancing sadness, and rights. Has anyone considered Kyoko's father? what happened was clearly not what he wants. he wants to be helpful and wants people to listen to him and his practical views. not as mindless machines just attending because they were forced by magic. that is why he broke. clearly he never made any contract with QB, yet things were forced on him (can be considered an evil action IMHO). this might give credence to Kyoko's view that the wishes should be just for yourself. what about kamijou , sure it looks good on the surface he can play again,but what if due to his accident he would have turned out to be the next Stephen Hawkings? and actually would have been more satisfied/happier later in life with his other accomplishments?

it's like in that excellent Sword of Truth book series by Terry Goodkind

Spoiler for Wizard's Second Rule ( Sword of Truth):

The greatest harm can result from the best intentions.

Kindness and good intentions can be an insidious path to destruction. Sometimes doing what seems right is wrong, and can cause harm. The only counter to it is knowledge, wisdom, forethought, and understanding the First Rule. Even then, that is not always enough.

and of course we're talking about miracles here, the greater the power the greater the effect, the greater the responsibility.

in fact the all the rules are good things to consider

http://sot.wikia.com/wiki/Wizard%27s_Rules

[SagaraSouske]

Originally Posted by Spinell

Two times we get to see a direkt attack of a witch. At the end of the first episode and the end of the fourth.

Let me use the line of argument consistently being used by QB Defender camp.

At end of first episode, when both Madoka and Sayaka were surrounded.

Reasoning 1: We did not see the witches actually attack them at all. We don't know what would have happened if Mami didn't interrupt.

Reasoning 2: Witch see Sayaka and Madoka as MGs, especially with QB in Madoka's arm. Since Mami was also in the witch's domain, it may also mistake them as her. Attacking MGs is a form of self defense.

At end of 4th episode, when Madoka was pulled into the witches domain in the store room.

Reasoning 1: The witch may not want to kill Madoka but merely trying to display her guilt back to her like a mirror, for what purpose we do not know. If a witch can kill Mami by biting her head off with such ease, there is no reason Madoka would survived so long if this witch had the intention of killing her.

Reasoning 2: Witch sees Madoka as MG and attacking as form of self defense. They may possess an affinity toward potentials MG candidates and unable to tell the difference between them.

~~~

Now I personally do think the witches were attacking in both cases. But no matter how strong the on screen portrayal points to that view, you can always argue purely based on technicality and claim that it can be open to interpretation. Just like no matter how many hints, trends and events demonstrate how QB manipulates, deceives and appears to have good grasp of human psychology by taking full advantage of human weaknesses from MG candidates, we have people that believe his words as honest and true. They cannot see that one can lie by telling truth. Just because facts were given when asked, it doesn't equate to giving an honest answer.

The whole QB is not human, therefore not subject to human morality fail to address how QB was able to successfully manipulate and deceive humans into contracting with him. Without a good understanding of humans, how can one know how to manipulate and deceive them? At best one can say QB does not agree with or care about human morality but understand the concept enough to employ it against humans to do his job. Devils are not human either but they cannot be labeled evil?

Then there is matter of degree where some label QB's manipulations and deceptions equal to that of a shady salesman. There is a big difference between a shady salesman that sells junk goods to con you out of some money vs a drug dealer for example that profits from people's addiction. The action of the first salesman is a minor offense and the latter is a major one. If QB is a shady salesman, then dealing with literately lives and souls of young girls is worse then selling drugs.

People are ready to make any excuse or arguments to defend their position on QB and yet on witches they make no such attempts because defending witches with the same type of reasoning may invalidate their defense of QB. They readily take screen evidence and declare witches are evil and is a threat to humanity and ignore similar evidence where QB is concerned.