2011-08-20, 08:20
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Link #961 | ||
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Excessively jovial fellow
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: ISDB-T
Age: 37
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we told you to get a htpc five years ago and now you get to suffer because you made the wrong decision The problem with small plastic toys like the popcorn hour is (and has always been) that they support the hot new thing when they're released, but when the next hot new thing comes out two years later you are screwed and get to either join the complaining-about-mkv crowd in a corner or buy a new toy. Seriously people, stop falling into this trap. Even with the rampant software bloat everywhere, a decent computer will last you far longer than any small plastic toy. It's also far easier to upgrade parts of it, should it become necessary. Quote:
(guess why? to create a demand for new bluray players, of course. everyone already owns a normal player, now it's time to get people to buy new ones.) also, petition to have this thread renamed The Complaints Box after all, it is almost exclusively used for complaining about whatever new technology that people started using this quarter
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Last edited by TheFluff; 2011-08-20 at 08:39. |
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2011-08-20, 08:53
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Link #962 | |
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Translator, Producer
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Age: 44
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At blu-ray bitrates, would 12 bit/10bit whatever do any good at all visually on 8-bit displays? You could fit 2-3times as much on one disc, sure, but what's the point? It's not like anyone crams that much content on a disc anyway (Tv shows, perhaps? Maybe for 3D movies? But there the visual quality is hurt by the display tech...) I'd be curious to read a source on panasonic pushing 12 bit. Maybe for the next generation format in 5-6 years, but I don't see it in less than 5 in any consumer level equipment. I could see a Digital Cinema 2000K style format with 12 bit and higher bitrates than Blu-ray being the level of a next gen format, but not as a simple extension to blu-ray.
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2011-08-20, 09:31
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Link #963 | |
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Excessively jovial fellow
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: ISDB-T
Age: 37
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http://www.panasonic-broadcast.com/c...T_Broshure.pdf AFAIK they have a finger in the CoreAVC 3.0 pie; it will support 12-bit because of their formats. Bigger numbers sell more devices.
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2011-08-20, 09:39
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Link #964 | |
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Translator, Producer
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Age: 44
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They have nothing to do with consumer discs or playback. The 12-bit format there is designed as a digital alternative to HDCAM-SR. I see no evidence of any push to update a consumer standard here. Core AVC 3.0 is being developed as an alternative to Mainconcept for software h.264 decoders that are built into pro-level video editing software. It's not about storage or playback for consumers. To quote the wiki article: "AVC-Intra is intended to serve needs of video professionals who have to store HD digital video on digital storage media for editing and archiving purposes." Who wrote that brocher you linked: "Professional & Broadcast IT Systems Business Unit Panasonic AVC System Europe Company a Division of Panasonic Marketing Europe GmbH Hagenauer Strasse 43 65203 Wiesbaden Germany http://panasonic-broadcast.com" By your logic, we should have had 10 bit hardware players long ago since AVC-Intra (10 bit) was put out in 2007 (along with panasonic's camcoders that recorded to it). HDCAM-SR has been 10-bit for a almost a decade. Just because the tech exists at the professional level does not mean it bleeds into the consumer market in the short term. It usually takes 5-10 years.
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2011-08-20, 11:12
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Link #965 |
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I'm Under Arrest!!
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Huh? Didn't know I had to be somewhere.......
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suffer
we told you to get a htpc five years ago and now you get to suffer because you made the wrong decision The problem with small plastic toys like the popcorn hour is (and has always been) that they support the hot new thing when they're released, but when the next hot new thing comes out two years later you are screwed and get to either join the complaining-about-mkv crowd in a corner or buy a new toy. Seriously people, stop falling into this trap. Even with the rampant software bloat everywhere, a decent computer will last you far longer than any small plastic toy. It's also far easier to upgrade parts of it, should it become necessary. Why do I have to suffer because fansubbers only think about the next "best thing" to come along? HTPCs are a fucking pain in the ass to maintain-that's why I (and a hell of a lot of other people) have media players. Media players are simple to use, use about 10% of the power that an htpc uses and you don't have to screw around with codecs and pita software players. So I say fuck 10 bit encoding-for the few advantages it offers it causes a shit more problems with incompatibilities.
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2011-08-20, 14:14
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Link #966 | ||
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Excessively jovial fellow
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: ISDB-T
Age: 37
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I also don't understand the argument about power consumption. How many hours can you possibly watch movies each day? Still, you don't need to download 10-bit releases if you don't want to. There is no shortage of re-encoding groups.
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2011-08-20, 14:23
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Link #967 | ||
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C
Join Date: Oct 2010
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by Quote:
Bitching about something means that one will feel bad if that thing does not happen. Also, best and next means progress, you are retarded if you blame people for following the progress. As for 10 bits standalone decoders, these funny guys seems to be serious about it: http://www.ntt-electronics.com/en/pr...oder-fpga.html Edit: However, they target the broadcating industry |
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2011-08-20, 17:28
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Link #968 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
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2011-08-20, 18:46
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Link #969 | |
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I'm Under Arrest!!
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Huh? Didn't know I had to be somewhere.......
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2011-08-21, 02:48
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Link #970 | |
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Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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10bit pretty much solves one of the remaining major problems in anime encoding: Banding. In the past, dealing with this forced encoders to either dither the source strongly and then apply way too much bandwidth (for a result which still was unsatisfactory), or to just leave it looking awful. With 10bit, you can now either drop down on bitrate massively (100-150 meg for a good-looking encode instead of 300), or you can have a near-perfect representation at the old bitrates. That's a good thing. There are simple playback solutions for all major operating systems which you just have to install. And if you have a standalone, there's enough converters which you can use. But telling encoders "stop using advanced tech because I'm too lazy to switch" is a losing proposition, I can tell you that. |
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2011-08-21, 03:31
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Link #971 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
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2011-08-21, 05:23
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Link #972 | |
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Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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So, I tend to put my Blurays into the drive pretty much exactly once: To rip them to disk. And with the outlandish prices the industry charges them, I seriously don't care that many of the series on my NAS are evilly "pirated". I spend more than enough on the industry. |
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2011-08-21, 08:27
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Link #973 | ||||
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C
Join Date: Oct 2010
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- This is not "the same tech used on professional tv productions and film" and this is a good thing, since it's mostly shitty - Using 10bits encoding does not imply by ANY means that "we" NEED the same tech used on professional tv productions and film, however, it can imply that the one who used it WANTs or aims for improvements. - I don't see anything wrong with aiming for the evil-pirated anime improvement ("better than it already does"). Fansub encoders do not exist to primary satisfy your NEEDs, they are there to do whatever they WANT. Quote:
Now you are using "you want"... I want that because I'm able to perform it. Is it a smart question to ask someone why he wants to increase his performance? You can grap any re-encoding release if you are satisyed with "just fine". Quote:
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2011-08-21, 22:29
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Link #974 | |||
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Two bit encoder
 Fansubber
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Chesterfield, UK
Age: 39
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B) Reconsider your position on a HTPC C) Sell your device while you still can D) Learn how to/pick up a tool to re-encode stuff E) Download from one of the many re-encoding groups Quote:
As soon as people start encoding using 10-bit, these hardware producers will have no choice but to support 10-bit if they want to keep shifting hardware. It took long enough, but look at how devices now have decent MKV support and the multitude of audio and video formats that it's possible to find in it. There may well be zero market for it right now as you say, but I believe that market will grow, even if it is slowly in comparison to when H.264 initially started to gain widespread usage. I'm kind of surprised and dissapointed that Bluray didn't already support 10 bit. Seems like a glaring omission considering the quality improvement if you ask me. However, the problem is that the quality of Bluray is already very good (excellent in most cases) so pushing an upgraded version of bluray might be like trying to get people to buy SACD. The enthusiasts and people with good equipment can tell the difference, but the average man on the street will be ignorant to the benefits. I would think in order to sucker people into buying a new player, you need a "bigger" feature than 10 bit, but I'm not sure what that could be. You could add more audio channels, but most people don't even have 7.1 yet (or want it; so many speakers). Maybe higher resolutions? That's a potential ploy and it would also serve as a good chance to shift new panels. I don't know. Introducing 10-bit Bluray seems like it might be a similar kind of challenge as with SACD. The gap between VHS and DVD was large, the gap between DVD and Bluray was large, but could you say the gap between 8-bit and 10-bit Bluray is as large? Quote:
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2011-08-21, 22:44
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Link #975 | |
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Translator, Producer
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Age: 44
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Also, the C banding was present on the master tapes (I happen to know  ).Anime (and CG animation in general) is the only place where blu-ray banding becomes a visible issue, IMO. I'm not sure that's enough of a reason. Here's a serious question: Is there any merit in the argument that 8 bit color depth is easier to program for both in hardware and software because it's 2^3? Is the move to 10-12 a fairly non-trivial one from a hardware design perspective because of that? (hence, blu-ray only being 8 bit, same as DVD).
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2011-08-22, 01:41
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Link #976 |
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x264 Developer
Join Date: Feb 2008
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For actual physical hardware (e.g. ASIC decoders), 10-bit is exactly 2 more bits, thus exactly 25% more wires for pixel processing and 12.5% more for iDCT stuff.
For a DSP or something, it's basically going from 8->16, so it's more like the ~40% you see on a PC. |
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2011-08-22, 03:06
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Link #977 | |
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Translator, Producer
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Age: 44
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2011-08-22, 07:11
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Link #978 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Romania
Age: 37
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You fail (in general, but that's beside the point) to understand that the people who REALLY want the best possible quality, are the encoders themselves. Yes, we, the people who encode stuff, want to create the best possible version. Not for you, not for the masses, but for ourselves. Do you think most people who downloaded Needless from me cared that the fonts for the signs were's the same for all episodes? Or that I forgot to label the chapters properly in episode 4? No, they didn't. But I did, so I released a v2. And that's not even for something really wrong. Most encoders hate banding. 10bit reduces banding by a LOT, so most encoders love 10bit. Do you get it now? |
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2011-08-22, 08:30
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Link #979 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: California
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 ), if by chance something gets announced at one of the big trade shows (NAB, CES, Computex, IFA) in 2012. Same deal for GPUs, CPUs, and APUs, since all next-gen chips destined for 2011 to mid-2012 have finalized designs by this point. Though if Fansubs move to HEVC (aka H.265) in 2014+, history will just repeat itself. But who knows, maybe Dark Shikari will meet his goal of making x264 better than HEVC (initial encoders) by the time its finalized, and everybody will stick with x264 for a few more years.
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Last edited by cyberbeing; 2011-08-22 at 08:49. |
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2011-08-22, 09:01
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Link #980 | |
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Translator, Producer
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Age: 44
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I wouldn't be surprised at all if the best x264 encoders are better than the first generation HEVC encoders for quite a while (unless it's possible to simply tack on extra features to x264 to make it x265).
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