Abilities and Technologies: Speculation based on Science, Metaphysics, and Magic

[dragon1412]

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

i think the halo will come, alongside with body changing like kakine.... pretty much what happened to mikoto-lvl5.5, but only slower, stronger, and much more epic oh and much much more "inexplicable force"

wasn't the halo already appear at the end of WW3 ?? i might be mistake though, since it was too long since i read that but i remembering mention about the Halo.

[Wandering Soul]

Originally Posted by dragon1412

wasn't the halo already appear at the end of WW3 ?? i might be mistake though, since it was too long since i read that but i remembering mention about the Halo.

Yeah at the end of WW3 along with white wings Accelerator also had a halo.

[LevelSeven]

Originally Posted by dragon1412

wasn't the halo already appear at the end of WW3 ?? i might be mistake though, since it was too long since i read that but i remembering mention about the Halo.

But since it didnt appear in NT10 it seems like accel isnt as "strong" as he was before :/

This is why i mentioned halo again, it should become a regular thing alongside white wings etc.

[Inept Forum User]

Just wondering about a few things:

• With regards to the process responsible for Noukan, what degree of ability destruction do you reckon would take place if it were to used with espers?
• Would it be likely that lost tales would operate similarly as bases as stuff that has fallen into the 'cracks'?
• How far do you reckon the concepts of a geis and chaos magic could be taken/used (separately) in the Toaru universe?
• Regarding the City of Shimmers, are there any sections that suggest that its environment would be suitable or unsuitable for non-native life, if they were somehow to enter it?

[LevelSeven]

Originally Posted by Inept Forum User

With regards to the process responsible for Noukan, what degree of ability destruction do you reckon would take place if it were to used with espers?

it is a interesting idea, if we insert accels mind into kakines, or kakine into mikoto, etc. it is open for discussions if the abilitys would completly change or if they stay the same (or become a mix out of two abilitys)

i think that depends on the factor: where does the esper ability comes from?

-either the physical brain and body -> esper ability stay the same
-the soul -> esper ability changes
-a mix of physical brain and metaphysical soul -> the two esper abilitys mix (or we have double skill)

since espers are unable to use magic, and magic has the soul as source for the mana but the body as important instrument to refine life force into mana, than we could assume that soul and body are changed which make them unable to use regular magic -> the esper abilitys will exist alongside each other (or get mixed)

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Fizix

Momentum doesn't cease when the motor is removed. The object under momentum simply loses its motor and friction will gradually slow it. It doesn't just stop.

When left on it's own yes, but what if imagine Breaker is like a great big god hand that grabs hold of it? An opposite force so to speak.

And lets not forget, IB's true power is to return things back to its original state.

[Fizix]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

When left on it's own yes, but what if imagine Breaker is like a great big god hand that grabs hold of it? An opposite force so to speak.

And lets not forget, IB's true power is to return things back to its original state.

Hmmm I'm not buying it I'm afraid. Its been stated that it doesn't affect the physical object, more than once.

And I do hope you've flagged the posts to be moved here otherwise this is going to make no sense at all

[LevelSeven]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

When left on it's own yes, but what if imagine Breaker is like a great big god hand that grabs hold of it? An opposite force so to speak.

?? it cant negate aftereffects which arent supernatural...

And lets not forget, IB's true power is to return things back to its original state.

no, IB negates/destroys distortions of the "real" reality, it doesnt change thing back to its original state, if so he could have turned accels brain damage back to "before it got damaged" or heal all his injuries with a simple touch XD
actually, that power sounds really cool

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Fizix

Hmmm I'm not buying it I'm afraid. Its been stated that it doesn't affect the physical object, more than once.

And I do hope you've flagged the posts to be moved here otherwise this is going to make no sense at all

What about physical magic objects? It can shatter ice doors Because there's magic running through it.

[Fizix]

Yeah but they are made of magic aren't they? Or if not then it turns to water or shatters. I'm not sure that its really like for like. Its tenuous dude, really tenuous.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Let's say they are water laced with magic.

Btw I'm not arguing for the railgun incident. Essentially my point is if something is still being controlled by magic even its forces are fair game.

[Fizix]

But if its forces are fair game then it creates holes all over the place.

[SimoHalo]

Originally Posted by Fizix

Yeah but they are made of magic aren't they? Or if not then it turns to water or shatters. I'm not sure that its really like for like. Its tenuous dude, really tenuous.

Something similar happened in NT10, the crowbar that Sasha uses it's "enchanted", but IB destroyed the crowbar altogether. Also in the film, a loli seems like that changes the terrain to trap Touma's ankle, but he IB destroys it altogether

[Chosen_Hero]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Let's say they are water laced with magic.

Btw I'm not arguing for the railgun incident. Essentially my point is if something is still being controlled by magic even its forces are fair game.

Adding to that IB is "the reference point of the world" which brings everything it touches back to it's original state, do a quarter with enhaced speed from an supernatural electromagnetic source turned into a railgun round could in fact have all of it's effects negated by IB, now had it been a non supernatural source and had it been a machine then it would have done actual damage since it wasn't being influenced by supernatural effects.

Also keep in mind we have just recently (at least canon wise) have just learned about IB's true purpose what we knew atthe beginning isn't the same as what we now know. (Although I find I very silly to discuss imaginary made up powers in the first place )

[MuteProtagonist]

The best way judge what Imagine Breaker can and cannot do is directly through its actions. There is not a single incident where Imagine Breaker has been shown to fail¹ to negate the momentum of something being controlled or enchanted with something supernatural. What I often see happening is that people tend to confuse Touma choosing not to use Imagine Breaker as an indicator for its inability to negate. His first fight² against Misaka is a perfect example for why this assumption is fallible. Until he was forced to, he did his best to avoid her iron sand sword since he was unsure if he could do so without losing his arm. If Touma had never tried to negate it, I'm sure her iron sand attack would be placed in the same category as her railgun.

Something interesting to note is that he tends to be more cautious with IB when faced with espers than magicians.

Hmmm I'm not buying it I'm afraid. Its been stated that it doesn't affect the physical object, more than once.

Fizix, if you can, do you mind showing me where its been stated?

1. Imagine Breaker has been overwhelmed, but this is not the same as it not working at all.
2. I'm not sure if calling it a fight is accurate.

[SimoHalo]

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

Also keep in mind we have just recently (at least canon wise) have just learned about IB's true purpose what we knew atthe beginning isn't the same as what we now know. (Although I find I very silly to discuss imaginary made up powers in the first place )

Didn't Ollerus said that Imagine Breaker can "also" be used like that? Ollerus a magician and as an ex-Magic God knows about that use of Imagine Breaker, but maybe there is something else.

Also, is mana a natural thing in ToAru? Because Imagine Breaker automatically mows the mana around him

[Fizix]

Without digging through the novels, no I can't point out exactly where. However it has definitely been stated in the novels that IB can negate the supernatural phenomenon but not physical objects that are affected by the phenomenon.

While not direct, the nature of his fight with accelerator in volume 3 accentuates this limitation. He is constantly being barraged with physical objects that accelerator is manipulating in various ways. During this the narrative highlights that he is defenceless against these types of attack. Not through choice but because the limitations of his ability prevent him from blocking them.

I don't know how much clearer that could be? Not without really conflating it by pulling up instances where plot armour is invoked or oversights are made. If something happens that contradicts what we've already been told then its contradicted itself, it doesn't make the original limitation null and void, it makes a plot hole or plot armour.

[Chosen_Hero]

Originally Posted by Fizix

Without digging through the novels, no I can't point out exactly where. However it has definitely been stated in the novels that IB can negate the supernatural phenomenon but not physical objects that are affected by the phenomenon.

While not direct, the nature of his fight with accelerator in volume 3 accentuates this limitation. He is constantly being barraged with physical objects that accelerator is manipulating in various ways. During this the narrative highlights that he is defenceless against these types of attack. Not through choice but because the limitations of his ability prevent him from blocking them.

I don't know how much clearer that could be? Not without really conflating it by pulling up instances where plot armour is invoked or oversights are made. If something happens that contradicts what we've already been told then its contradicted itself, it doesn't make the original limitation null and void, it makes a plot hole or plot armour.

Accelerator doesn't use his vectir control directly on the objects at least not as durectly as other abilities do, all Accelerator does is give it the momentum to control the direction and object should travel, notice that in Sisters arc all he does is basically give the stuff he is throwing a push or a slight kick, they are not coated with supernatural ability unlike Mikotos railgun which is coated and affected entirely by her electromagnetism.

Now compare how he uses those objects against how he fights directly with his supernatural ability those are very different ways of using his ability.

[Fizix]

Sorry I'd suggest reading volume 3 again. What accelerator is doing is going way beyond giving stuff a slight kick.

Anyhow, I think the explaining of how the railgun is different and how Mikoto, Kuroko and Kanzaki can breathe in space is really pushing it. These are plot armour or plot holes as far as railgun is concerned. Authors can make mistakes and that's clearly one of them.

The explanations are trying to explain an obvious and glaring hole away with reasons that are just barely passable at best.

Just to be clear on railgun:

She gives the projectile a powerful electrical charge and then applies a powerful electromagnetic force to it in order to launch it. The projectile itself is merely a physical object that has been launched using a supernatural ability. It is otherwise entirely under natural forces, she isn't pushing it along and it isn't a constant force. It's a physical object that's been fired, it's a bullet and her power is the gun, that's all.

The only way Touma can negate that is if his ability can nullify momentum caused by a supernatural ability, as the fight with accelerator clearly stated, he cannot. It's a plot hole and a really obvious one.

[SimoHalo]

Originally Posted by Fizix

Sorry I'd suggest reading volume 3 again. What accelerator is doing is going way beyond giving stuff a slight kick.

Anyhow, I think the explaining of how the railgun is different and how Mikoto, Kuroko and Kanzaki can breathe in space is really pushing it. These are plot armour or plot holes as far as railgun is concerned. Authors can make mistakes and that's clearly one of them.

The explanations are trying to explain an obvious and glaring hole away with reasons that are just barely passable at best.

Just to be clear on railgun:

She gives the projectile a powerful electrical charge and then applies a powerful electromagnetic force to it in order to launch it. The projectile itself is merely a physical object that has been launched using a supernatural ability. It is otherwise entirely under natural forces, she isn't pushing it along and it isn't a constant force. It's a physical object that's been fired, it's a bullet and her power is the gun, that's all.

The only way Touma can negate that is if his ability can nullify momentum caused by a supernatural ability, as the fight with accelerator clearly stated, he cannot. It's a plot hole and a really obvious one.

But Touma can stop momentum caused by a supernatural ability, he did it with the cannon shots in Italy and did it again against Ellis