2008-10-20, 08:05 | Link #1141 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Land of the rising sun
|
Quote:
Quote:
That is what I am talking about. And we go back to Lorenz force and mass of the slug. You'll need to elaborate more. Quote:
They may keep going but they run out of propellant always needing to compensate the opponent's move. I really do not think the opponent will be waiting at the same position for ten years. Quote:
Quote:
If the chaff curtain is close to Team A and TeamB is far away then sensor will be blotted out by the curtain since localization of overall energy output will register higher at the curtain then teamB's distant thrust plume. Also if the curtain is close to missle or teamA then the coverage arc to the sensor will be larger masking a larger area behind. |
|||||
2008-10-20, 08:56 | Link #1142 | |||||||||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Quote:
Also, I looked it up. The magnetosphere's at an altitude of 800-1000km. Two or three times higher than the OW we were examining. Quote:
Quote:
And, again, I'm not persuaded that it'll be strong enough to even matter compared to air resistance. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
And again, a missile may want to avoid the drones altogether. It may not be easy for the drone to set themselves on an intercept course. Hell, if we're talking about pellets, the big ship can launch their own, ahead of the missile swarm, to mess with the drones. Quote:
Quote:
|
|||||||||
2008-10-20, 09:33 | Link #1145 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Land of the rising sun
|
To my understanding the movement of the aurora is caused by the flux of the earth magnetic field thus we are seeing the flux itself.
as for the slug spinning, it won't because polarization will occur 180 degrees to the magnetic field, not a right angle. Dopple effect can be detected in some cases but if radar is rendered useless than it really does not matter. Heat signature depends totally on the propulsion system so it can not be generalized. If it is some kind of exotic propulsion system that utilizes gravity then we will probably not be able to detect it at all. Also you'll need to examine the plume to actually be able to know the relative distance between the plume and yourself which takes time in real life situation. The size of the pellet will probably be between the size of BB and a golf ball but they will have relative speed of Mach 20 so it is going to leve a very nasty hole if it hits. (Velocity is more relavent than mass.) As for the relative distance, my mistake it should be near the opponent not the ally. And if there are two heat sources one created by decoys, after coming through the curtain then the missiles will have a very bad day deciding which heat source they will follow. |
2008-10-20, 09:57 | Link #1146 |
Truth Martyr
Author
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
|
I keep mentioning the points of discussion in the context of Macross and keep getting ignored. I'm all for random discussion and tech discussion but we need to remember that this is Macross, not the real world. This is a world where singing turns the tide of battle.
__________________
|
2008-10-20, 10:22 | Link #1147 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
|
Well here's a Thrust-to-Weight Ratio chart for Valkyries and real jet fighters.
Spoiler for Thrust-to-Weight Ratio:
Oh yeah the class names of the Macross Galaxy escort fleet are Deneb Dulfim class and Deneb Kaitos class. Deneb Dulfim being the star Epsilon Delphini and Deneb Kaitos being the star Beta Ceti. Which could indicate only Macross Galaxy had this sort of fleet with the unique Mainland type colony. Spoiler for Galaxy Mainland with Deneb Kaitos and Deneb Dulfim classes:
Unlike other fleet with multiple civilian residence vessels like Macross 1, Macross 5, Macross 7, Macross 11 and Macross Frontier. With at least one shelldome city ship. Frontier being the large scale island version. Spoiler for Macross 1, 5 , 7, 11, Frontier:
|
2008-10-20, 10:31 | Link #1149 |
Truth Martyr
Author
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
|
No, it's a recognition of the fact that singing increases the Will stats of all allied units and grants additional Spirit Points for Seishin use, especially the extra-useful Valor/Nekketsu (Hot Blood) skill, which grants 2x damage for attacks...
... sorry, I kinda got carried away into SRW.
__________________
|
2008-10-20, 10:37 | Link #1151 |
Star Designer
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Europe
Age: 38
|
@ReddyRedWolf
Amazing T-t-W Ratio increases. Do you know how to calculate the same thing for VF-25F/S or 27? We have their statistics. About Galaxy. It's probable that it's design comes from the fact that it's mainly an industrial fleet. I wonder though, how did people live there. It must've been really hard. @Wild Goose No problem there, I'm a fan as well
__________________
|
2008-10-20, 11:04 | Link #1152 |
Truth Martyr
Author
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
|
Interesting stats... I'd like to know what the PTW is for the VF-25S as well; come to think of it, it logically has more thrust than a VF-25A or VF-25F, which means that that may account for why Ozma moves so well in it...
Well, that, and being powered by burning hot blooded manliness. "I'm not an adult! I'm a man!"
__________________
|
2008-10-20, 11:04 | Link #1153 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
|
As mentioned once before, humans don't have the patience to wait for months or years in a combat engagement. Nor do they at present have the endurance for such in space travel. If patience of military commanders, civilian taxpayers, and politicians is not up to the point of engaging in wars that last six months to ten years between the opening salvo and the first landing of a hit on the first target, they aren't going to do it that way.
The distances may still be great in todays terms, but I can only imagine combat taking place in real time in anything other than sieges or long distance planetary bombardments. This means the vessels will be within light minutes of each other...and more than likely light seconds if they use large amounts of slower than light weaponry. Even if they use speed of light weaponry, they will want to be sure of a hit rather than have to lead the target by several light seconds or minutes when your view of said target is also several light seconds or minutes old. Even if combat is basically computerized, people don't have the patience for it and will basically forget it is happening (at least with Americans who seem to have a six months memory when it comes to news related items). This is one reason why science fiction combat seems more real to people. Something is happening. Sure science may be right on the money in terms of everything that can and cannot happen in space warfare. It doesn't take into effect what humans will actually do, nor how the public will actually feel/react to such an instance of space combat. If combat takes more than a few hours or even a day for anything to happen, it probably won't be happening in ship to ship type engagements. (Edit: thank you.)
__________________
Last edited by Ithekro; 2008-10-20 at 12:37. |
2008-10-20, 16:14 | Link #1155 | |||||||||||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||||||||||
2008-10-20, 17:31 | Link #1156 | ||
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
|
Quote:
A practical engagement is one where a target can be hit within an amount of time so that you will know the results and can plan to take additional action. Thus a practical space combat action between warships at sub-light speeds, using sub-light weaponry will be at a relatively close distance. This isn't to say that the distances won't be vast by our view of things, just that it will be within minutes or hours for a weapon to reach its target (such as today's missiles). Thus a distance of several light seconds or maybe a light minute would be considered for combat actions. If the weapon has sufficient speed, then maybe as farther out, but then you're targeting data becomes less and less reliable, since you are looking at several minutes or even hours old images at launch. Since 1 AU (distance from the Earth to the Sun) is roughly 8 light minutes of distance, do you think you are going to have a real combat action between warships that are firing sub-light missiles at those kinds or ranges? Even at closest approach it is something like 4 light minutes to Mars, at greatest distance it is greater than 20 light minutes away from Earth. Thus effective combat between space ships will be "relatively" close to each other. They might not be able to see each other without the aid of a telescope and it may take several minutes to an hour for something to happen between shots, but they won't be taking shots from across the star system using a warhead even if it can accelerate up to maybe 210 km/s using an ion thruster. This is because it will still take more than 23 minutes to move the missile one light second away from you. Thus Macross' way of things "looks better" as something is happening, rather than waiting nearly a half hour just to see if your first shot hit the target at out just beyond the Moon.
__________________
Last edited by Ithekro; 2008-10-20 at 17:50. |
||
2008-10-20, 17:52 | Link #1157 |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
People do what it takes to win. If it means that what you call "combat" becomes obsolete in favor of "lobbing things at each other", then so be it. If it means that one side, seeing itself outshot, surrenders and no missile has to actually hit its target but is deactivated instead, so much the better.
Human intelligence is highly adaptable. And today's AI are, well, limited. Plus, in warfare, there are countless tasks that can't be automated. But will that still be true if all we have to do - indeed, all we can do for most of the actual "war" - is lob missiles at each other? Just try to hit the target while avoiding counter measures. What need will we have for humans then? What need for ships? (I mean, sure, you'll need humans somewhere, to build the missiles and decide to launch them and stuff. And, well, you'll still need warm boots for the occupation. But will you need to bring them close to the missile action?) Note, what I said only holds without FTL travel. FTL would change quite a lot. |
2008-10-20, 18:32 | Link #1158 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
|
Missile time to reach a target on Mars from Earth orbit (using a 210 km/s capable missile): estimated to be between just under 4 days (92 hours) and just over 19 days (460 hours) depending on what orbital positions the two planetary bodies are in relative to each other.
You'll still need to have a way to protect your transports as they cover the same distances, and they will be slower since they need to decelerate to make orbit and not kill the humans on board via G-forces. Assuming the other planet's mitary forces are hidden from you, they will be able to attack your transports when they are decelerating or when they reach orbit. At which point more conventional warfare returns to the picture. In the 1950s it was assumed with the advent of Mach 2+ aircraft and missiles that machine guns and cannons would be a non-issue as the aircraft would never fight in close anymore, thus no need for them or the dogfighting they were associated. Reality kicked in over Vietnam showed that with closing speeds as they are, fighters still need to dogfight because they can get too close for a missile to lock onto a target. Thus in the 1970s cannons were put back on fighters so that the option was still there if the pilot needed it rather than go head to head with a MIG and then figure out..."oh wait, I can't fire a missile at him, and he's got a 30mm cannon pointed at me" Just because you have something better doesn't mean the older weapon or style will be completely outdated. It may still live on in a modifed form for when things get a little too close. Soldiers still carry combat knives and bayonets even though they should never get into melee combat. (EDIT: My last comment on the combat knife reminded me of FMP! and the use of anti-tank knives in combat by the mechs in production at the time.)
__________________
Last edited by Ithekro; 2008-10-20 at 20:38. |
2008-10-20, 20:01 | Link #1159 |
Go to DMC! Go to DMC!
Join Date: May 2008
|
I think I'll point out the obvious here, after seeing a few posts on Orbital weapons and 'why use manned fighters' in the Macross universe.
1) Orbital weapons are fine and dandy, but they do need space-based support to maintain them, as well as to move them - even with Overtechnology they seem to require some sort of reaction mass to move ships and spaceborne objects (ergo the thrusters on VF's and all spacecraft), which means you need to burn fuel to move them. Beyond that, a dedicated remote killsat probably isn't practical for on-planet warfare for the same reasons nukes aren't used for tactical or strategic purposes - they're expensive, they do a god-awful lot of damage when they hit, and they're pretty easy prey for anyone who has orbital strike capabilities... which the UN Spacy, and presumably anyone they're going to be fighting, does. Especially with VF's being able to make orbit without booster packs, or even large missiles and Macross cannons being not one-of-a-kind technologies. If you want a very moveable orbital battle platform, there's another name for them: New Macross-class battleships. Which also can defend themselves from orbital assaults and move quickly. 2) Fighters in Macross seem to be a cross between 'manned missile deployment platform' and 'infantry support to be used against Zentradi', a philosophy which came around due to the circumstances which surrounded the first war and the consequences which resulted from the Protoculture making millions of Zentradi battle fleets which are even now roaming space, and most of which are going to be hostile to the Miclones and their Zentradi allies. They can be missile boats (witness the power of the Armor packs), but they're apparently made to do many things at once, so you don't have to have fleets dedicated Destroids for ground actions as WELL as dedicated fleets of missile platforms; you can get away with a lot of VF's which do both functions adequately, and smaller numbers of dedicated Destroids for anti-air (and presumably, ground) defense and a gaggle of unmanned missile platforms (the Ghosts). 3) The bias against AI's after the Sharon Apple incident is likely to blame for the lack of exclusively drone or remote-based fighting platforms; the way Sharon Apple basically hacked the AI of the X-9 Ghost in Macross Plus, combined with similar experiences with drones being hacked/jammed by the Vajra in Frontier, is likely to make the military unwilling to exclusively rely on drones for defense, even if they're yoked to follow orders a la the X-9's that Luca was using throughout the series. Between that and the existence of serious ECM capabilities, the UN Spacy is very much going to want to keep a human in the decision loop for fire/not fire choices, as well as to be able to cope with situations which a limited AI can't... or because when faced with communications jamming, an individual soldier can still fight, whereas a drone may go stupid or a missile could completely lose lock and then be turned combat ineffective. Plus, as Ithekro points out, the (New) UN Spacy's main purpose is to defend human and allied Zentradi colonization fleets as they make their way across the galaxy, then to defend them once they settle on a planet. Relatively stationary weapons are useless for the former case, and the latter will demand somewhat more mobile weapons both to put down uprisings on a planet as well as to be able to meet threats beyond the orbital sphere of the planet in question, on the assumption that it's better to hit an enemy on the way in rather than when your back's to the wall and any missed shots will damage your own homeworld. Beyond that, missiles are expensive to produce in numbers, compared to gun slugs... but missiles are less expensive than dead pilots. But at the same time, there are things that human pilots can do that drones and missiles can't... such as take and hold ground, or root out insurgents, or defend the orbitals around a planet. Or, if necessary, invade a city to take out the people attacking from the factories you're trying to keep intact without obliterating them. |
2008-10-21, 09:51 | Link #1160 | ||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Quote:
Quote:
All I'm saying, though, is that the space battle may see little need for warships, let alone fighters. The land battle that follows is another story. (Unless you just want to nuke everything from afar, of course.) |
||
|
|