DC and Marvel Animation

[GDB]

Originally Posted by LifeILL

he hasn't had a good or memorable story since like the early 90s. The writers are scared to push this character for some odd reason.

Well, it certainly wasn't good, but I'd say OMD was memorable. Certainly made the character one that I no longer wish to read.

The problem with Spider-Man, there is no character development whatsoever with this guy. He is exactly the same now as he was in the 60s. Exactly the same, no changes, no nothing.

Actually, I'd say it's worse than being exactly the same. He had developed, and he had changed. But they took that away in OMD.

He is still broke and working as a photographer, still a college student, it makes no sense.

...He hasn't been in college since the 70s or 80s. And he's currently neither broke nor a photographer, he's working in a lab as a scientist.

Originally Posted by LifeILL

And then what happens? Some prick in Marvel thinks that Spider-Man stories are getting waaaay too dark and mature so they decide to press the reset button all over again. It's terrible.

They had actually planned the reset button long before the whole Civil War thing started. It's the only reason the higher ups allowed him to unmask in the first place, since they knew they were going to undo it.

Originally Posted by LifeILL

If you want to read Spider-Man stuff then read Ultimate Spider-Man, Venom, or Spider-Girl, they're much much better written than any of the main titles

Ultimate Spider-Man isn't even Peter Parker anymore, and the only Spider-Girl for me is Mayday. Granted I don't read comics anymore ($4 for 1/6th of an arc? No thanks), but I've been hearing good things about Scarlet Spider. Not that I'd support it anyway, what with Marvel crapping all over Ben Reilly and throwing Kaine in the role.

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by Samari

I just finished watching Justice League DOOM. It was average in my opinion. Just seemed like a really long episode of Justice League Unlimited or something to that effect with the same formulaic mantra we've all come to expect. I was kind of disappointed.

Honestly, I thought it was bad. This is when I judged it on it's own, as and adaption of the comic, and compared to the DCAU adaption of Tower of Babel. Mind you, this was even after saying I didn't expect much from it, considering we already had a pretty good adaption and the general record of these DC OVA's inability to handle large storylines, so it was interesting to see how bad it had gotten.

Well, at least we did get the McDuffie commentary (which was excellent) and this:

Originally Posted by james0246

the voice acting is still good (it is, more or less, simply a reunion of a bunch of the actors from the Justice League tv show (though with a few changes))

A little too good it looks like there will be further therapy sessions for everyone from now on ...

Originally Posted by james0246

Just as a heads up (for those that care) The Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes Season 2 will begin April 1, 2012.

After the recommendation you guys gave me, I went ahead and watched the entire series over the past few months, and I have to admit that I'm pretty excited about the new series. I have to admit that once we got into the second stretch, the show got to be pretty much an ass kicking after ass kicking. The Kang and Loki arcs in particular were great, and I really liked the Black Panther arc as well (in fact, he ended up being my favorite out of the cast next to Thor and Cap).

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

Well I might be discussing it if they didn't air Young Justice in this extremely bizarre and staggered schedule. I didn't even know until I read your post, which I feel like is the case for many who wanted to follow the show and don't regularly watch TV.

It has gotten quite bad now. I hadn't wanted to post this since I had a feeling it would depress some (I know it did for me) but according to Brandon Vietti and Greg Weisman on their blog, Young Justice season 1 had been completed since November of last year, and the work on season 2 has gotten so far ahead, they had already recorded the lines for the finale episode.

Spoiler for From Ask Greg:

SEASON TWO
201 is in post-production. We're actually locking the final cut in editorial today.
202 is in post-production. We're waiting for retakes.
203 is in post-production. We're calling retakes today.
204 is overseas, being animated, but it should ship back to us next week.
205-207 are overseas, being animated.
208 is overseas, being animated, while we're simultaneously finishing the color models.
209 is overseas, being animated. We still have color models to work on.
210-211 are both overseas, being animated, and we still have color models to work on. Plus we still have one voice actor to record, who was out sick. We've temped in the lines. (I did them, actually.) We'll have to pick him up in post-production, using ADR.
212 is overseas, being animated. We still have color models to work on.
213's storyboard is in track and checking.
214's storyboard is in revision and track.
215's storyboard is in notes.
216's storyboard is in and going to slug.
217's storyboard is in.
218 is in storyboard. Still have two actors to pick up for this one.
219 is in storyboard and fully recorded.
220 is in storyboard. We're picking up a couple actors early today, and recording the rest of the cast (hopefully) this coming Tuesday (Feb 7).

Yep, that's right. ALL the scripts for Season Two are locked and final.

It's somewhat reassuring to know that the show is doing well in production, and they have episodes to air regardless, but for the scheduling to get so bad to the point where production is almost completed a year in advance ...

(On the actual show, I stopped on the Red Tornado rescue episode, so I'm somewhat behind. I plan to catch sometime soon once the show starts airing on a regular pace)

Originally Posted by LifeILL

Yep, the whole Civil War and Back in Black was a perfect way to bring some character development to Spider-Man

With all due respect, no. The entirety of the mess that was Sin's Past, The Other, Civil War and Back in Black (the last one being nothing more than a tie in with the then current Spiderman 3 movie) was nothing more than the Marvel editorial department implementing change after change to spiderman, to the point where we had him changing too much too quickly. Sure, there were some good changes, like him becoming a school teacher, working with the Avengers more often and having a more secure life, but the thing with Gwen Stacy having an affair with Norman Osborn and their two children coming back to seek revenge against Peter Parker? The thing about changing his powers to be magical? The whole Unmasking business? The Darker and edgier route? The problem with Spiderman isn't that he didn't change, it's that whatever change was pushed on his character often made no sense, happened too fast and/or were never built on them to give them more ground.

Originally Posted by GDB

...He hasn't been in college since the 70s or 80s. And he's currently neither broke nor a photographer, he's working in a lab as a scientist.

Not to mention being a school teacher pre-OMD, which I actually thought was the most logical career choice for Peter Parker, and one of these things I wished they hadn't retconed since I really liked it.

Originally Posted by GDB

They had actually planned the reset button long before the whole Civil War thing started. It's the only reason the higher ups allowed him to unmask in the first place, since they knew they were going to undo it.

Which makes it all the more annoying they went with the public unmasking. I understand that they wanted a publicity stunt with one of their most recognizable characters for their then-big cross over event, but it wouldn't work out if it made no sense in relation to the story (Spiderman never had to unmask in public, in fact the entire point of the Superhuman registration act was that the information would remain confidential and secure) or the character (Spiderman: ''Well, I have a rouge gallery of criminals who would kill me the first second they see an opening, and some of them had learned of my identity before and used it to their advantage by targeting my family and loved ones. Clearly, I need to unmask in front of the entire world forgetting about the thing with the homicidal villains and my family being in constant danger!'').

[LifeILL]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

With all due respect, no. The entirety of the mess that was Sin's Past, The Other, Civil War and Back in Black (the last one being nothing more than a tie in with the then current Spiderman 3 movie) was nothing more than the Marvel editorial department implementing change after change to spiderman, to the point where we had him changing too much too quickly. Sure, there were some good changes, like him becoming a school teacher, working with the Avengers more often and having a more secure life, but the thing with Gwen Stacy having an affair with Norman Osborn and their two children coming back to seek revenge against Peter Parker? The thing about changing his powers to be magical? The whole Unmasking business? The Darker and edgier route? The problem with Spiderman isn't that he didn't change, it's that whatever change was pushed on his character often made no sense, happened too fast and/or were never built on them to give them more ground.

Oh I'm not talking about The Other and the crappy Gwen Stacy stories, those were beyond garbage. Yes, those stories made zero sense and everything was suspect from the beginning. And in the end, he didn't change. That was the problem, they had this whole thing with him dying of cancer or whatever it was, just for him to be reborn or some crap, I'm not even talking the stuff where they gave him stupid new powers and stuff like that.

Look at Batman, Superman, Daredevil, as far as I know, none of them has ever developed "new" powers in the last 20-30 years, but yet they have grown as characters, things in their life change all the time

In Civil War I thought they were going to go in that direction with the unmasking and him on the run, Aunt May being shot, him losing Aunt May. Now that's some drastic life-changing events, but Marvel decides that Spider-Man is just too big of an icon to have his story go in that direction.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by LifeILL

Look at Batman, Superman, Daredevil, as far as I know, none of them has ever developed "new" powers in the last 20-30 years, but yet they have grown as characters, things in their life change all the time

Superman Red and Blue would like to have a word with you. (Superman's powers, though, have always been famously undefined. And entire universes have been destroyed simply because the resident Superman was too powerful for modern canon.)

[LifeILL]

Well I've actually read most of the Superman Red/Blue stuff believe it or not, while I don't remember much of it, I thought they made Superman weaker than he was before? He gained some new powers like electricity or whatever but he seemed much weaker in strength in general. Most of the story wasn't good, but it did provide a set up for the following storyline, which was pretty damn good in my opinion.


What I'm saying is, if a character like Superman, the hardest Superhero to write stories about, can have character development, then there is no reason for an icon like Spider-Man to be written so poorly.

[GDB]

What development has Superman had? All I've seen (and granted, I never read much DC outside of the Batman, Captain Marvel, and Green Lantern families) was him getting progressively weaker so as to not be god-like. And he's regressed just as much as Spidey, since in the most recent reboot (third or fourth one in 8 years) he's not even married to Louis anymore.

[LifeILL]

Well that's the whole point of a complete reboot, to start at the beginning. The last time they wiped out everything in the 80s, it was the same thing. He was single at first before telling Lois who he is.

As far as character development go, he's gone through a lot of stuff, I mean, if you read his comics, he rarely goes around and fights common criminals, he's always trying to figure out the history of Krypton or Kandor or whatever. He even went back to Krypton days before the planet exploded, he met his real father and mother, and had to watch the whole planet explode again. He also killed Zod and some Phantom Zone prisoners, and was exiled into space and went from planet and planet exploring, he came across a Kryptonian artifact which gave him more history on Krypton, he used it to see stuff like his family's history, he even saw Jonathan Kent fighting as a soldier in the Vietnam War....etc...you get the idea. Just always putting him in new enviornments instead of on Earth all the time.

Also, one thing they would do with Superman in the comics how they made him smarter and smarter as time went on, like how he would know how certain chemical compounds would react with one another when he's fighting some alien, just stuff like that.

Also his relationship with Batman is pretty interesting, like how Batman's respect for Superman would grow more and more as time goes on. In the Justice League comics Bats would always tell other members to listen to Superman, cuz he's right.

As far as his powers, I don't really pay attention to that stuff, he would be strong or weak depending on the writer.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by LifeILL

Also his relationship with Batman is pretty interesting, like how Batman's respect for Superman would grow more and more as time goes on. In the Justice League comics Bats would always tell other members to listen to Superman, cuz he's right.

Last interaction between them that I read was Batman telling Superman off about his whole "inspiration" motif, and how the last time he inspired anyone was when he died.

*edit* My bad, forgot this was the animation thread and not general comics.

[Slayerx]

New awesome episode of Young Justice; "ColdHearted"
If you missed it you can catch it again on Sunday at 10:30

Spoiler for Young Justice "coldhearted":

An excellent episode.
Really my favorite has to be the twist at the end. The show put enough tension into the scene to convince a person to think that the kid died. There was a constant emphasis on the ever shrinking time frame so when they said she died it seemed believable. What also helps is knowing that this was a plot by the light who usually succeed in their plans; so the light's record for success helped to set up a situation where its believable that Wally would fail.

Also Green lantern has finished re-airing the premiere episodes, so new episodes start next week

[Akito Kinomoto]

With the Avengers live-action movie approaching the big screen, I'm kind of wondering if DC is going to adapt what it already hasn't to set the stage for a live-action Justice League...

[LifeILL]

I definitely want DC to do a Justice League film.

However, they should do a Justice League International movie before Justice League America, because that's how it happened in the comics.

And I'm not saying this just to be fanboyish but because Justice league International was extremely well-written, had great characters and a great plot, and was well-received by just about everyone (better than Justice League America).

The best part was the chemistry between all the members. Because at the time, Superman hasn't even joined the team yet, Wonder Woman wasn't on the team either.

It was just Batman, Maxwell Lord, Guy Gardner, Mr. Miracle, Blue Beetle, Booster Gold.

And the team was a mess at the time I remember, outside of Batman and Maxwell Lord, every other member was pretty immature and Batman had to put them in their place constantly, it was just fun as hell to read.

And later Batman had to convince Superman to join the team, I think that would make a great scene in the movie.

And the covers are amazing and iconic:

[Samari]

Tonight's Young Justice episode was really good. Probably the first good one in 3 or 4 episodes I think. And that is interesting because it focused mostly on one character. I'm going back and rewatching the beginning of the series just to refresh my memory on all that has happened. I can't wait for the "invasion" story arc that is apparently in the works. I also hope to see more of Superman and Superboy's relationship unfold.

Originally Posted by LifeILL

I definitely want DC to do a Justice League film.

However, they should do a Justice League International movie before Justice League America, because that's how it happened in the comics.

I don't understand this. Was it because after Crisis things were changed so that the Justice League International was formed first? Because the Justice League of America has technically been around since 1960. Justice League International was fist published in 1987 under the guise of "Justice League".

[LifeILL]

Yes I'm talking about the post-crisis stuff. Where Justice League International and Justice League Europe were formed before Justice League America.

That was when good writers like Keith Giffen and DeMatteis started writing for them.

I don't think anyone would want to see an adaptation of the 60s Justice League, that is just corny.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Akito_Kinomoto

With the Avengers live-action movie approaching the big screen, I'm kind of wondering if DC is going to adapt what it already hasn't to set the stage for a live-action Justice League...

They might, but i'm not sure how well it would work out. Sure the batman film worked out well, but the green lantern film was a disaster; and the early film build up to the avengers movie is a big factor it whats helping shape it up to be a great film. The avengers movie is benefiting from YEARS of planning and preparation. By relying on the early films to give the backstories of the main characters, it gives them less of what they need to do in the avengers film.

Not to mention marvel seemed to put together a brilliant creative teams to work on all these movies to the point where it feels certain the avengers film will get great treatment... DC on the otherhand, only has batman... superman is unknown at this point, but the green lantern film kind of shows that they may not be all there.

Originally Posted by LifeILL

However, they should do a Justice League International movie before Justice League America, because that's how it happened in the comics.

I'd highly doubt that it would work out well
Simply put, there is not enough time in a 2 hour movie for them to make a good JLI movie.

one of the major reasons the avengers film is shaping up to be so good is because it had several films to build up to it. The complicated origins for each of the characters were covered in the previous films, allowing avengers to jump right into things. Without those films, the film would need to cover the backgrounds of each character, form the team AND still have time to play out its plot. This is bad enough for a justice league film, but it would be even worse of a JLI film. Maxwell Lord, Guy Gardner, Mr. Miracle, Blue Beetle, Booster Gold are all fairly unknown characters to the general public. Sure you might get away with skipping on the origin of well known heroes like superman and batman, but you could never pull it off with those lesser known heroes.

I'd also mention that marketability would probably prevent the film from ever getting greenlighted over a Justice Leauge film. I mean a bunch of second string superheroes vs DC biggest and most marketable characters. DC and Warner Bros would know that a film staring Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Hal Jordan, and Flash would be A LOT easier to sell to the public than a film staring heroes that are mostly unknown to the general public. Really most every knows those big heroes, but only comicbook fans and maybe some animation fans (namely the ones who enjoyed batman brave and the bold) have any clue who the JLI characters are.

[LifeILL]

When the first JLI team was formed, it wasn't like Blue Beetle was a huge character at the time, he was just some guy in a bug costume and I'm sure no one cared about him. It wasn't like he had a long running series.

Same thing with Maxwell Lord, don't ever remember seeing him in the pre-crisis days. I think his first appearance was from JLI.

Booster Gold, same thing, never appeared before JLI.

Guy Gardner was around, but come on.....he wasn't like Hal Jordan big, I think JLI gave him some stardom.

I think DC really needs to make these guys marketable, because outside of Batman and Superman, DC has almost no characters that are well-known by the general public. They have to find a way to branch out and push these "lesser" known characters, I think it can be very successful. And with Batman in the movie, it will help a lot.

Because they sure as hell isn't making a Wonder Woman or Flash movie any time soon, and even if they did make one, I can't fathom it being good.

[Slayerx]

spoilers for Young Justice invasion possible cast

Spoiler:

Originally Posted by LifeILL

When the first JLI team was formed, it wasn't like Blue Beetle was a huge character at the time, he was just some guy in a bug costume and I'm sure no one cared about him. It wasn't like he had a long running series.

Same thing with Maxwell Lord, don't ever remember seeing him in the pre-crisis days. I think his first appearance was from JLI.

Booster Gold, same thing, never appeared before JLI.

Guy Gardner was around, but come on.....he wasn't like Hal Jordan big, I think JLI gave him some stardom.

Actually booster gold got his start in his own series a year before Justice League. Also we have to take into account the roles some of these characters played in infinite crisis, which was a MAJOR DC event. As for blue beetle; while ted kord was a fairly new character, the original blue beetle had been around in comics for years. You also missed mister miracle which had his own comic run. So that's only maxwell lord who was more of a support character i believe

The backstory for most of these characters were already covered BEFORE they came together and that would help them when making into the comics... It would also be wrong to apply what happened in comics to the general public as the general public is a much larger audience that a movie must appeal to; essentially compareing comics to movies is apples and oranges. Only members of the non-comic reading public that knows anything about these characters are those that watch Batman brave and the bold or who remember the one or two episodes from JLU that covered these characters... that is Far to niche' for a producer to put their faith into a $200 million live-action movie

I think DC really needs to make these guys marketable, because outside of Batman and Superman, DC has almost no characters that are well-known by the general public. They have to find a way to branch out and push these "lesser" known characters, I think it can be very successful. And with Batman in the movie, it will help a lot.

True, but a live action movie is the worst possible way to try and turn them into big time heroes... Not only would no producer be willing to take the risk, there's the fact that the movie would probably ends up coming out poorly because it spent too much time building up the unknown characters to dedicate enough time to its plot. Again, a movie only has 2 hours to tell a story... It would take a considerable amount of time to give us enough backstory on half-a-dozen characters for the general public to get invested in the characters. On top of that they need to form the team and play out their plot. Its too much for one movie. And if the movie does not do well, then it will not help these characters at all.

The best way that to build up other characters lies more in TV where the investment and risk is much smaller, but the exposure is better than comics. For instance, i think blue beetle's exposure in Batman Brave and the bold could have potentially worked as a good vehicle to give him his own TV series. If the TV series performed well, then his name would spread and they could include him in more shows and THAT could lead him to having the potential to make a live action movie appearance and finally becoming a household name. Personally i think the third incarnation of Blue beetle is one of the closest to breaking out and joining the big name heroes

Only the big named characters have had enough exposure outside of comics to pull off having their own movies and being able to pull off a team movie... I could see a wonder woman, flash, aquaman, or even a green arrow movie being made, but not booster gold, mister miracle and so forth. The lesser known heroes need to learn to walk first before they can run with the big leagues.

Really, without that build up the ONLY way ANY lesser known hero is gonna get a movie appearance is if they are along side a team made up of the other bigger superheroes. In other words a Justice League movie starring Batman, superman, wonder woman, etc, and with ONE of the lesser known hero attached as well. Kind of like what they did with the Justice league Tv series, where they had mostly big name heroes and then saw fit to throw in lesser known heroes like Hawkgirl; the big names bring in the star power to pull in the audience, while the lesser knowns use their fame to get exposure and build their fan base

[Ithekro]

Justice League Unlimited did a fair job showing off the second and third string heroes from time to time. It wasn't always about the first string heroes like Superman and Batman.

But that sort of thing works better as a series. You don't have time to give the third string much in terms of personality (or even saying their names) in a feature film. You'd get the first string and some second string for such.

[Samari]

Originally Posted by LifeILL

Because they sure as hell isn't making a Wonder Woman or Flash movie any time soon, and even if they did make one, I can't fathom it being good.

Why not? If those films have good writers and directors and the studio isn't just trying to half-ass it, then those films can succeed. They have a better chance of succeeding than a JLI film with heroes no one knows. Creating backstory for all of those characters in one film and having a good amount of action is pretty much impossible. Unless you make it like a 5 hour movie.

[Samari]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

spoilers for Young Justice invasion possible cast

Spoiler:

Spoiler for Response:

Are they all going to grow a little in age? I hope so. I can't imagine a 13 year old Robin kicking bad guys asses. I was all hoping the cast was around 17-20. But I guess the show is trying to relate to little kids more. In any case, who is the second person below Blue Beetle and above Superboy on the second box?

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Justice League Unlimited did a fair job showing off the second and third string heroes from time to time. It wasn't always about the first string heroes like Superman and Batman.

But that sort of thing works better as a series. You don't have time to give the third string much in terms of personality (or even saying their names) in a feature film. You'd get the first string and some second string for such.

Exactly, TV shows make for a much better way to introduce and build on lesser known characters. Not only are they a less risky investment, but they also have a lot more time to build on the characters.

You start them off as a reoccurring guest stars on a bigger hero's tv show, and if they are well received, then you can give them their own TV show, and THEN if that does well you can start talking feature films, because by the time they have their own show they are certain to have the fanbase and public notice to pull off a movie.

Originally Posted by Samari

Spoiler for Response:

Are they all going to grow a little in age? I hope so. I can't imagine a 13 year old Robin kicking bad guys asses. I was all hoping the cast was around 17-20. But I guess the show is trying to relate to little kids more. In any case, who is the second person below Blue Beetle and above Superboy on the second box?

Spoiler:

no clue about the ages... these are toy boxes so there aren't really any actual details about invasion that's been released

As for the other character, someone on another forum idenfitied him as Lagoon Boy... which seems like an odd choice given that we have aqualad