AnimeSuki Forums

Rising Dragon · 2013-05-12, 17:06

... I imagine that ZAFT was able to recognize the Freedom because they fucking built the thing in the first place.

The American Average · 2013-05-12, 18:23

^ you sir win an Internet Point

Gundamx · 2013-05-12, 18:37

though they hide the fact > since it was secret project because it use nuclear reactors
because if alliance found about it than they will use nuclear weapon too
(That why they send Justice after Kira)
+
though it normal for them to have all Freedom strength and weakness in their database

S.Freedom · 2013-05-12, 22:32

So we have this powerful MS and an equally powerful warship kidnap a head of state(Cagalli) and nobody thinks it would be a good idea to study up on their strengths and weakness?

That's kinda like saying Britain, France or Russia shouldn't study up on a terrorist group even though they just kidnaped Obama.

monster · 2013-05-12, 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.Freedom

So we have this powerful MS and an equally powerful warship kidnap a head of state(Cagalli) and nobody thinks it would be a good idea to study up on their strengths and weakness?

That's kinda like saying Britain, France or Russia shouldn't study up on a terrorist group even though they just kidnaped Obama.

Remember, the Freedom is associated with Lacus, and "Lacus" is currently on ZAFT's side.

It'd be like saying the US Army should study up on the CIA because it might have involvement in some foreign affair.

Also, remember that Orb is now ZAFT's enemy.

S.Freedom · 2013-05-12, 23:00

Why would "Lacus" approve of kidnaping the head of state of another nation?

As I would think that would cause needless confrontation and even bloodshed. And Orb didn't officially join the EA until after Cagalli was kidnaped. So the Freedom/Archangels actions could be said to be what drove Orb into then hands of the EA. Granted we know that's not the case. But the average ZAFT grunt doesn't know that, anymore than they knew Meer was a fake.

The only thing the average ZAFT grunt knows is that the Freedom/AA kidnapped Orbs ruler for unknown reasons. Why would they think that the Freedom/AA wouldn't turn on them next? How would they know that the same people who helped Lacus at the end of the first war are still crewing the Archangel/Freedom?

monster · 2013-05-12, 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.Freedom

Why would "Lacus" approve of kidnaping the head of state of another nation?

Exactly, and since Orb denied that their head of state was kidnapped, it's all just rumors for ZAFT.

Quote:

And Orb didn't officially join the EA until after Cagalli was kidnaped.

They joined before that. That's why the Minerva had to leave.

Quote:

How would they know that the same people who helped Lacus at the end of the first war are still crewing the Archangel/Freedom?

If you're going this route, then I've raised this exact point. If that's the case, then it makes any record that ZAFT has of the Freedom's action in the previous useless. ZAFT still has the Freedom's specification, but that has nothing to do with Kira's choices in battles.

So what were you saying again about Heine studying up on the Freedom?

Rising Dragon · 2013-05-12, 23:33

Heine was a GuIAZ Experimental Firearms Type pilot, so he should already be aware of some of the Freedom's capabilities.

monster · 2013-05-12, 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Heine was a GuIAZ Experimental Firearms Type pilot, so he should already be aware of some of the Freedom's capabilities.

That was never the issue.

The American Average · 2013-05-12, 23:51

Wouldn't ZAFT have to have Data on the Freedom considering they made an Upgraded vision Called the Strike Freedom I doubt they could just pull that out of their rear like that considering how quickly it was made in the Show.
(personally i think Strike Freedom just happened to be ready because Kira Needed a new suit not that it was being built since the end of the First war, After all why would ZAFT make one if there was already a Freedom just laying around one. One could argue that they didn't know the Freedom was fixed during the production of Strike Freedom but eh. none of the Upgraded 3 ship alliance Lead Suits made any sense to me, because they literally came out of know where they just happened to have them.)

monster · 2013-05-12, 23:54

Of course ZAFT would have technical data on the Freedom, but that wasn't what S.Freedom raised initially when discussing about Heine.

The American Average · 2013-05-13, 00:26

wait we're still on the Heine subject? i thought it was if ZAFT did or did not have knowledge on the Freedom.
So with Heine... why not just watch the damn episode and see if we can see if he says/does anything during the fight

(http://www.watchcartoononline.com/gu...english-dubbed)
In the dub he does say "Attacking all of Us?! what makes you so Special!"

while in the sub (according to this sub group http://www.animefushigi.com/watch/gu...iny-episode-23)
"Coming out of Nowhere like that... Don't get cocky on me, you Bastard!"

so yeah gonna go with he knew just didn't care, he probably thought he was good enough to at least hold his own against the Freedom. For all the good that did him

monster · 2013-05-13, 01:01

Actually, it's not even about what Heine knows about the Freedom, but about what he knows about the Freedom's pilot.

S.Freedom was saying that Heine should've known what the Freedom's pilot would or would not do based on ZAFT's record of how the Freedom fought in the first war, but I pointed out earlier (and S.Freedom even brought it up in his/her latest post) that ZAFT/Heine doesn't even know if that's the same pilot he's facing now (beside, some things could've changed between then and now).

The American Average · 2013-05-13, 01:46

why would knowing who the pilot even matter? especially for Heine, Even if he Knew it was Kira, i doubt he would Care. He has no personal feelings towards Kira in the slightest. I really doubt ZAFT records would say that Kira is the Ultimate Coordinator. it would just Cause problems for everyone.

I think, Only person in ZAFT (enemy pilots not people like Dearka) that knew Kira was the Pilot was Rau. after all the very last episode of Destiny was when Shinn found who the Freedom's Pilot was and he had all the Knowledge of ZAFT at his disposal being a Faith member And all. Then again Rey Knew Kira was the Pilot and HE too was a Faith member
so my argument doesn't hold water at all =/.

monster · 2013-05-13, 01:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by The American Average

why would knowing who the pilot even matter?

I don't mean knowing him personally, although that could help. But then again, look at Athrun.

I meant more along the lines of knowing the pilot's intentions and acting accordingly.

The American Average · 2013-05-13, 02:02

if they knew the Intentions of Kira and Co. they never would have fought, resulting in Heine not Dying. and the whole show would be done by episode 26

monster · 2013-05-13, 02:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by The American Average

if they knew the Intentions of Kira and Co. they never would have fought, resulting in Heine not Dying. and the whole show would be done by episode 26

Well, my point was that Heine doesn't know Kira's intention.

So, yeah...

monster · 2013-05-13, 05:23

Okay, I finally watched it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The American Average

Cagalli acts like a dumb idiot

Nah, she's just the eternal optimist. Shinn just has anger issues.

Come to think of it, the news about the Coordinators being responsible for the fall might've been taken better by the general public had Durandal came clean about it in his speech while also emphasizing the role of official ZAFT forces in trying to minimize the impact, as Cagalli might've imagined it to be told. Instead, he allowed LOGOS to control the media and somehow had a Lacus impersonator already conveniently prepared.

Really, and some people were dismissing Lacus and Kira's reason for not trusting the Chairman.

S.Freedom · 2013-05-13, 11:52

Honestly Durandal needed the population of earth out of their minds with anger/hatred. He needed another war to happen, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to pull off his LOGOS and Destiny plan speech's. Or at the very least nobody would have taken him seriously and or even laughed at him.

Destined_Fate · 2013-05-13, 12:40

Well, to be fair Logos was going to start another war eventually. At least Durandal's path allowed him to have far better control on the war and to manipulate things towards the big Logos reveal by deflecting all the hate of the last wars upon them.

Destiny plan was working but without Durandal's actions he would be long dead before it was accepted by a large portion of humanity.

2013-05-12, 17:06	Link #7141
Rising Dragon Goat Herder Author Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	... I imagine that ZAFT was able to recognize the Freedom because they fucking built the thing in the first place. __________________

2013-05-12, 18:23	Link #7142
The American Average 2LMES Join Date: May 2012 Location: a comet that goes zooom!!!	^ you sir win an Internet Point __________________

2013-05-12, 23:33	Link #7148
Rising Dragon Goat Herder Author Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	Heine was a GuIAZ Experimental Firearms Type pilot, so he should already be aware of some of the Freedom's capabilities. __________________

2013-05-12, 23:51	Link #7150
The American Average 2LMES Join Date: May 2012 Location: a comet that goes zooom!!!	Wouldn't ZAFT have to have Data on the Freedom considering they made an Upgraded vision Called the Strike Freedom I doubt they could just pull that out of their rear like that considering how quickly it was made in the Show. (personally i think Strike Freedom just happened to be ready because Kira Needed a new suit not that it was being built since the end of the First war, After all why would ZAFT make one if there was already a Freedom just laying around one. One could argue that they didn't know the Freedom was fixed during the production of Strike Freedom but eh. none of the Upgraded 3 ship alliance Lead Suits made any sense to me, because they literally came out of know where they just happened to have them.) __________________

2013-05-13, 00:26	Link #7152
The American Average 2LMES Join Date: May 2012 Location: a comet that goes zooom!!!	wait we're still on the Heine subject? i thought it was if ZAFT did or did not have knowledge on the Freedom. So with Heine... why not just watch the damn episode and see if we can see if he says/does anything during the fight (http://www.watchcartoononline.com/gu...english-dubbed) In the dub he does say "Attacking all of Us?! what makes you so Special!" while in the sub (according to this sub group http://www.animefushigi.com/watch/gu...iny-episode-23) "Coming out of Nowhere like that... Don't get cocky on me, you Bastard!" so yeah gonna go with he knew just didn't care, he probably thought he was good enough to at least hold his own against the Freedom. For all the good that did him __________________ Last edited by The American Average; 2013-05-13 at 00:54.

2013-05-12, 18:37	Link #7143
Gundamx Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2010	though they hide the fact > since it was secret project because it use nuclear reactors because if alliance found about it than they will use nuclear weapon too (That why they send Justice after Kira) + though it normal for them to have all Freedom strength and weakness in their database

2013-05-12, 22:32	Link #7144
S.Freedom Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: On the edge of insanity Age: 44	So we have this powerful MS and an equally powerful warship kidnap a head of state(Cagalli) and nobody thinks it would be a good idea to study up on their strengths and weakness? That's kinda like saying Britain, France or Russia shouldn't study up on a terrorist group even though they just kidnaped Obama.

2013-05-12, 23:00	Link #7146
S.Freedom Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: On the edge of insanity Age: 44	Why would "Lacus" approve of kidnaping the head of state of another nation? As I would think that would cause needless confrontation and even bloodshed. And Orb didn't officially join the EA until after Cagalli was kidnaped. So the Freedom/Archangels actions could be said to be what drove Orb into then hands of the EA. Granted we know that's not the case. But the average ZAFT grunt doesn't know that, anymore than they knew Meer was a fake. The only thing the average ZAFT grunt knows is that the Freedom/AA kidnapped Orbs ruler for unknown reasons. Why would they think that the Freedom/AA wouldn't turn on them next? How would they know that the same people who helped Lacus at the end of the first war are still crewing the Archangel/Freedom?

2013-05-12, 23:54	Link #7151
monster Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2005	Of course ZAFT would have technical data on the Freedom, but that wasn't what S.Freedom raised initially when discussing about Heine.

2013-05-13, 01:01	Link #7153
monster Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2005	Actually, it's not even about what Heine knows about the Freedom, but about what he knows about the Freedom's pilot. S.Freedom was saying that Heine should've known what the Freedom's pilot would or would not do based on ZAFT's record of how the Freedom fought in the first war, but I pointed out earlier (and S.Freedom even brought it up in his/her latest post) that ZAFT/Heine doesn't even know if that's the same pilot he's facing now (beside, some things could've changed between then and now).

2013-05-13, 01:46	Link #7154
The American Average 2LMES Join Date: May 2012 Location: a comet that goes zooom!!!	why would knowing who the pilot even matter? especially for Heine, Even if he Knew it was Kira, i doubt he would Care. He has no personal feelings towards Kira in the slightest. I really doubt ZAFT records would say that Kira is the Ultimate Coordinator. it would just Cause problems for everyone. I think, Only person in ZAFT (enemy pilots not people like Dearka) that knew Kira was the Pilot was Rau. after all the very last episode of Destiny was when Shinn found who the Freedom's Pilot was and he had all the Knowledge of ZAFT at his disposal being a Faith member And all. Then again Rey Knew Kira was the Pilot and HE too was a Faith member so my argument doesn't hold water at all =/. __________________

2013-05-13, 02:02	Link #7156
The American Average 2LMES Join Date: May 2012 Location: a comet that goes zooom!!!	if they knew the Intentions of Kira and Co. they never would have fought, resulting in Heine not Dying. and the whole show would be done by episode 26 __________________

2013-05-13, 11:52	Link #7159
S.Freedom Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: On the edge of insanity Age: 44	Honestly Durandal needed the population of earth out of their minds with anger/hatred. He needed another war to happen, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to pull off his LOGOS and Destiny plan speech's. Or at the very least nobody would have taken him seriously and or even laughed at him.

2013-05-13, 12:40	Link #7160
Destined_Fate Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."	Well, to be fair Logos was going to start another war eventually. At least Durandal's path allowed him to have far better control on the war and to manipulate things towards the big Logos reveal by deflecting all the hate of the last wars upon them. Destiny plan was working but without Durandal's actions he would be long dead before it was accepted by a large portion of humanity.