To Aru Majutsu no Index LN - New Testament Volume 22 Reverse Discussion / Poll

[Chosen_Hero]

^Touma is the most popular male character in the entire series (consistently every single year) so I don't get where some of you are getting the whole thing about him being disliked, unless you are spending time in a Touma hater echo chamber or are a Accelerator/Hamazura fanboy. If you fail to see how much he has changed throughout the series, especially in NT, then I don't know what series you must be reading because at this point we have volumes focusing on how much and how many times he has changed.

[shmaster]

Hey there are people like me who loves to hate him.

And you can't deny Touma has not yet get his own illusion shattered.

[Chosen_Hero]

Originally Posted by shmaster

Hey there are people like me who loves to hate him.

And you can't deny Touma has not yet get his own illusion shattered.

But he did, along with the rest of the current phase back in NT.9, that volume is one big wake up call for him.

Heck, in this volume he is even reliving Worlds Omega and Beta which were made to put into question who is Kamijou Touma when he can't be Kamijou Touma when he is missing the thing he thinks makes him Kamijou Touma (NT.9 was his achievements and connections, in this one is IB and once again his connections). Last time he almost committed suicide, this time he is actively fighting back, if that isn't change than I don't know what is.

You can hate him all you want but at least pay better attention to what's happening before going on a rant about how much of a bad characters he is while missing or ignoring information that already exists.

[shmaster]

You are missing the point.
This volume is no world omega or beta.
But a volume of two hypocrites shouting at each other over whose hypocrisy is better. When the hypocrisy itself is Touma's very illusion.
Suit Touma is just a holier than thou piece of garbage who think everyone should just obey him because he knows the best.
Real Touma is just insecure about his own shortcomings, and in truth not really thinking the best of the others like he wants to believe he is.
Not to mention his own wishes out of his insecurity is the cause of all this. Touma has no one to blame except himself this time.

[Kuroageha]

Originally Posted by shmaster

Hey there are people like me who loves to hate him.

And you can't deny Touma has not yet get his own illusion shattered.

There are there those who have become indifferent to his character as well.

Touma is a huge hypocrite, many called it already back then when LN discussion was just a single thread.
It's just that now it's become more evident and intended or not both Touma fit to a T the theme of the major arcana the Hierophant. He has suffered but he hasn't learned at all to use those as positive feedback to grow instead he chose to curve himself into a ball to embrace what should be changed on himself.

[Chosen_Hero]

^^The volume is LITERALLY spelling out almost the same things I said, if you want to ignore it then that is your choice.

^He is the Fool, Anna Sprengel and Aiwass already mentioned it and it then is echoed in the talk at the restaurant.

“Have you forgotten? I sided with Great Demon Coronzon to achieve my own goal. And you were fighting to protect Aleister. If someone saw that without everything that led up to it, they’d probably think we’d gone insane."

Bullshit, first of all the three of them were fighting to help save Lilith, NOT Aleister. Second, while Touma and Accelerator kept their side of the bargain, Hamazura forgot the thing he was there to do (of which he did nothing) and then joined the other side once something more convenient to himself popped up.

Sorry Kamachi, but I am not going to let you get away with revising the events of last volume that easily.

And lastly, oh look, Hamazura has not and will not be suffering the consequences of his actions last volume, who could have guessed.

[NeutralZero]

Lol at kamijou description as a bunny who could die of loneliness and
It is nice to see accel's tsundere side...

[dniv]

Just read everything today through chapter 3 part 3. Gotta say this is some golden. I mean... it's all rosey goodness. I wonder if Kamachi was trolling us by making the subtitle start with an R so just the English version has initials NTR 22... I'm very curious...

This is really good so far. Can't wait to see what happens next. The one thing I'll say so far is that I like how this is turning out. Even if Touma loses all of his past memories permanently, it seems as if he'll be able to move forward with his past relationships, possibly. And Misaka actually helped out which was really nice to see. She saved his ass.

I really don't blame Misaki here. She's being played with and she's sort of short-circuiting. Really like all the character development Touma, Accelerator, and Hamazura are getting, but especially Touma. It's really nice seeing how his thought process has changed over time as he's gotten more and more selfish since NT 9.

That scene where he declared war on himself was truly awesome. Also, it was super interesting to see how Misaki could actually control Misaka when she went crazy and didn't hold back. Man too many interesting things... Also, the Germain stuff was so weird. So much stuff is happening and I'm very curious about pretty much everything.

Hamazura honestly had a good point too about why he did what he did. To be perfectly honest, he isn't that different from Touma. They both made up BS to justify their own goals as they went. I'm not saying that Hamazura wasn't an idiot that did stupid things. But knowing who he was in the past and how he grew up, to be honest, I'm not that surprised. At least he managed to get lucky and not ruin everything, so whatever. But at least, I guess I sort of understand where he was coming from now.

But the whole thing about clashes of identity and how memories define you and what makes you really you and about how his past half year is being weighted as more than the rest of his life up until that point... all of that, I really love it. It's really interesting to see. Super solid start. I can't wait to see the follow up now.

[Kuroageha]

@Chosen_Hero
I'm way past that though.

[devil_slayer]

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

^^The volume is LITERALLY spelling out almost the same things I said, if you want to ignore it then that is your choice.

^He is the Fool, Anna Sprengel and Aiwass already mentioned it and it then is echoed in the talk at the restaurant.



Bullshit, first of all the three of them were fighting to help save Lilith, NOT Aleister. Second, while Touma and Accelerator kept their side of the bargain, Hamazura forgot the thing he was there to do (of which he did nothing) and then joined the other side once something more convenient to himself popped up.

Sorry Kamachi, but I am not going to let you get away with revising the events of last volume that easily.

And lastly, oh look, Hamazura has not and will not be suffering the consequences of his actions last volume, who could have guessed.

You are still waiting for Hamazura to pay for his actions? Lol can't you see his has the thickest plot armor out of all the main 3?

Hamazura gets away with so much shit it's just funny at this point.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

Bullshit, first of all the three of them were fighting to help save Lilith, NOT Aleister. Second, while Touma and Accelerator kept their side of the bargain, Hamazura forgot the thing he was there to do (of which he did nothing) and then joined the other side once something more convenient to himself popped up.

Sorry Kamachi, but I am not going to let you get away with revising the events of last volume that easily.

And lastly, oh look, Hamazura has not and will not be suffering the consequences of his actions last volume, who could have guessed.

Shiage was bent on Dion Fortune by that point. So yeah, pretty much his own reasons why he sided with Choronzon

Originally Posted by dniv

Hamazura honestly had a good point too about why he did what he did. To be perfectly honest, he isn't that different from Touma. They both made up BS to justify their own goals as they went. I'm not saying that Hamazura wasn't an idiot that did stupid things. But knowing who he was in the past and how he grew up, to be honest, I'm not that surprised. At least he managed to get lucky and not ruin everything, so whatever. But at least, I guess I sort of understand where he was coming from now.

The main difference is Shiage's honest about it

[entei08]

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

Bullshit, first of all the three of them were fighting to help save Lilith, NOT Aleister. Second, while Touma and Accelerator kept their side of the bargain, Hamazura forgot the thing he was there to do (of which he did nothing) and then joined the other side once something more convenient to himself popped up.

Sorry Kamachi, but I am not going to let you get away with revising the events of last volume that easily.

And lastly, oh look, Hamazura has not and will not be suffering the consequences of his actions last volume, who could have guessed.

Touma WAS fighting on Aleister's side to assist her and by extension Lilith, he wasn't about to let Lilith become an orphan and throw Aleister out to the dogs, I don't see how this is debatable. Otherwise he would just let Aleister die against Orsola and that was that. Accel and Hamazura were a different matter so I don't see why you are lumping them together like that when Hamazura referred to Touma specifically.

Hamazura was initially working to get leverage on Aleister to secure a better life for his circle of people. He found nothing useful, yet his circle expanded with Dion, so he went on and put her back to normal, he never strayed from his goal of wanting the best for his associates either, no matter how backwards and misguided his actions were in NT 22. Keeping in mind he never tried to save the world by going to England.

As for him not suffering consequences, I don't see why he should when all he did was refining magical power when Tsuchi end up worse all the time and still be alive with no handicaps to this day, considering his esper powers are of little to no help, the guy drowns in his own blood every other day. And honestly he ended up in no worse shape than Tsuchi's average day. It's just Hamazura badly needed help on a subject he has no understanding of that made it look so desperate, he took the risk and it worked out, nothing more nothing less. This isn't YuYuYu.

[shmaster]

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

^^The volume is LITERALLY spelling out almost the same things I said, if you want to ignore it then that is your choice.

And you are overlooking what makes the situation different this time.
This is no world omega or beta because Touma was not put into this uffering by an outside force.
Touma himself caused all this. This is only karma, nothing more and nothing less.
Suit Touma is the way he is because Real Touma's own desire.

Touma was not attacked by some other who is trying to hurt him by tossing him into an unfair world.
Rather, Touma is getting defensive over his own shortcomings.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by shmaster

And you are overlooking what makes the situation different this time.
This is no world omega or beta because Touma was not put into this uffering by an outside force.
Touma himself caused all this. This is only karma, nothing more and nothing less.
Suit Touma is the way he is because Real Touma's own desire.

Touma was not attacked by some other who is trying to hurt him by tossing him into an unfair world.
Rather, Touma is getting defensive over his own shortcomings.

Suit Touma may be the way he is because of Touma's own desire, but Suit Touma didn't simply appear out of nowhere because of anything Touma did, it's Aleister and Coronzon's fault he's here right now, even if Touma created him.

That's why despite having a wrong impression about Hoodie Touma, I still believe that this isn't the best time for Touma's character growth, because it's still too similar to all the stuff he's done before, he's still reacting to things that happen to him.

Touma needs to be more proactive to start his own growth.

[Wandering Soul]

I guess the latest update was meant to confirm to us that bros+understander> harem members.

[dniv]

Originally Posted by Wandering Soul

I guess the latest update was meant to confirm to us that bros+understander> harem members.

To be fair, misaka actually helped him out there and I say this as a Shokuhou fan. that’s the only reason they’re even having that convo in the first place.

[Kuroageha]

Oh yeah, that was pissing me off since OT, people manipulate Touma to do their bidding and don't even say thanks nor sorry and who better than Touma himself to call them out.

[WiliamZ0]

Chapter 3 part 3 is nothing but Prove that Bros > Girls
Damn Accel TsunTsun (Touma #1 Fan) moment is awesome, and he want to keep from Touma that he is the Academy City Superintendent for now, don't want Hamazura to spoil it. He also glad that Toumabeing more selfish because if he keep selfless he would be disappointed at Touma. Accel also jelous Touma tried to grab his personal demon so he threw him, but Kamijou survived and Accelerator quite surprised at the fact he get hit. Touma himself surprised he still Okay after all of that

And Is that Kamachi way to redeem Hamazura cause it's not enough for me. He pretty much get out without consequences

Still It's interesting what the color will play in this part We have Sky Blue, Lemon Yellow, Shocking Pink and Emerald. They gotta mean something. If so far Dion explained it from Magic Side of things, we gotta use Science. Art in a sense can be considered as part of science. Anyone find the meaning of those 4 colors so far?

The fact Touma still kept his personality despite the changes he experiences in NT9/NT10 tell me there's part of it that attracted IB to be with him, we can't say for sure both Touma have whole IB, just part of them (according to Dion explanation)

There's also the fact Othinus used IB as core to recreate world and unknowingly released some formula that not exist in old world.

Part 4, the Suit Touma finally gave the other people that kept using Touma some kind of lesson, quite an irony I would say~

Part 5, Feel sorry for Misaki. How long she must suffer. Meh Touma already suffered in hand of Othinus A LOT, I just hope there's some way to redeem her actions

Between lines is interesting because there's some new mysteries added to Index and we have lots of them unsolved yet.

[dniv]

Okay, the rest of the chapter 3 was honestly the best I've seen of this series. The level of writing there was just incredible. We got so much.

Goddamn you Kamachi, this is your attempt to even tackle NTR themes now?

I can't even believe this. This is just too, too. Lol, I'm at a loss for words.

Spoiler for chapter 3 sections 4 to 6:

Hearing all of these internal monologues, revisiting all of those particular scenes in the series, comparing Misaki to Touma, looking at what happens when people can't process enough information properly in a scenario, looking at how Kamijou sort of used Komoe's naivete, looking at how Misaki is jealous of Index, showing how Elizard was being superficial, showing how Touma is aware of his own hypocrisy and grabs hold of others' weaknesses and twists their minds and emotions to accomplish his own objectives, showing just everything here, and especially Misaki's thought process and Kamachi's explanation of everything happening to her.

Lol, this is such God tier, I can't even. I'm also suspicious about Sphinx tbh. But aside from that, that between the lines was very interesting as well ... so much for tomorrow. How am I even going to even sleep tonight! '

Yeah, this book, heck these whole last few books, this whole arc, no all of NT, or even the whole series deserves a huge analysis after all of this. But instead of promising something hard that I might be too lazy to do later for now, instead I'll just say, that this volume deserves an extremely detailed analysis once it's done and I will be giving one, because I don't think I've seen this series any better at any point in my entire life, and heck this is probably the best thing I've ever read. And I don't even think we've reached the climax yet which should be next chapter. Jesus.

Edit: I'm also suspicious about those colors myself. Edit: Might have found something relevant: http://the-eye.eu/public/Books/Templ...ries-Vol-3.pdf I'll note that this has references to golden dawn and rosenkruez too. (among other things the diagram on page 104) We can only guess until he tells us though.

[WiliamZ0]

I worked at printing and Shocking Pink actually color that tended to be used when making things like bills. The red NCR paper that used is actually shocking pink color.
The color itself associated with giving and receiving

But I don't think that what the color meant.

Sky Blue I had some idea but not many things that used that color, most of it meant universal

More like the colors maybe had something to do with physiology