Aquarion EVOL - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll

[Destined_Fate]

I don't think you're supposed to like Mikono or Amata with how things are going. Clearly they're going for Fan Hate to make their relationship work. I mean if everyone hates them than no one will care in the end if it makes sense or not if they're together just cuz because everyone hates them.

[BetoJR]

You do realize that not everyone hates them, right?

[Destined_Fate]

I know that, however most do hate them(Wonder how a Mikono and Amata poll would do now after episode 22, hah) and for good reason. I haven't seen a single reason that has redeemed Mikono and now Amata with his treatment of Zessica taking an even worst take than in the past. It's the writers fault in that regard, they utterly failed with Mikono and now Amata and with 4 episodes left they wont have much success considering how much mud they dragged in 22 episodes.

Episode 22 alone negated all the stuff Mikono was trying to do and made her even more useless and Amata took a jump in to past back to his earlier episode incarnations. Keeping them stagnant and stuck in the past instead of actually moving them forward. Sure that fits their fate thing, 12,000/24,000 years, but that didn't stop Apollo from growing in the original. His later episode self was not tied down by his earlier episode self while that just isn't the case with Amata.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by Vena

All you really would need is for her to say: "He's not trying to hurt me!" or something along those lines, but since Amata loses almost all of his claim to fighting Kagura if he knows that Kagura's not there to hurt her... can't have that. Instead, its presented rather silly with him saying it over and over, Amata being "Wtf? That's no good!", and she's blushing on her tower.

Irregardless, my issues was the dick measuring contest where neither of them cared about what she had to say nor did either of them care about the fact that neither is in a committed relationship but are both acting as if she were their prize. Naturally the fact that Mikono cannot or will not do anything will always return to the writers making it so.

(Though I don't understand why she couldn't just jump and get their attention. They can both stop her, and it would break up the fight instantly... and then she's not on a tower anymore. And can get between them.

But, this requires too much thinking.)

She could have tried explaining it. "He talks in a strange way! Believe me, he doesn't want to kill me!" might have been enough for Amata. There's still the possibility he could have gone ahead with the fight regardless, since I bet he's got some grudges against Kagura by now, but at least he was listening to what Mikono said, unlike Kagura.

Jumping might have worked. It worked later on when she was knocked off the tower by accident and Amata got to her. On the other hand...Kagura can be careless with her at times, like in earlier eps such as when he attacked the car she was in, so he's not Mr Perfect Safety. Amata is pretty good at catching her, though, so unless he was unable to get to her, she would probably be okay. Mikono is fairly safety conscious and unlikely to do things that would get herself hurt; I think at the time when Kagura kicked Amata so he could grab her, she was shielding her head with her arms.

But like you say, the writers would never have allowed her to take action in that scene, since they definitely wanted her firmly in the damsel in distress role right then so that Kagura and Amata could have their fight. Gah. They spend time on trying to make Mikono braver, and then they put her in a situation where they don't give her a chance to be. It did seem like they wanted them to have a fight over a prize.

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

I don't think you're supposed to like Mikono or Amata with how things are going. Clearly they're going for Fan Hate to make their relationship work. I mean if everyone hates them than no one will care in the end if it makes sense or not if they're together just cuz because everyone hates them.

Nah, not everyone hates them. I may criticise the way those characters and their relationship are being written at times, but that doesn't mean I hate them. I like them. I just think that the writers could have done better with them. If I didn't like them I wouldn't be complaining when I think the writers are being sloppy.

As for the writers, I think they really are trying to make everyone like all the characters, but they've made a lot of mistakes and omitted things which should have been included just for the sake of having the plot run uninterrupted. (Like the scene where Yunoha and Mikono talk about Kagura, and Yunoha mysteriously doesn't have much of an opinion about her saving Kagura, a guy apparently on the side of those who had recently killed Jin. And Mikono not telling Amata how she feels; that should have happened many episodes ago, but it would have totally zapped the plot about Amata and Zessica worrying that Kagura is going to win her.)

[KleenexGhost]

It seems that a lot of these sub-plots could have been resolved if the main characters simply talked about the situation and what was going on and resolved things with words.

[Destined_Fate]

The thing is that with 4 episodes left things will only get more convoluted and crazy for those two. It's going to take a miracle to go up from here since it seems they're best on dragging them down. The worst part is that their intention may not have been that but their writing ability just failed to convey what they were trying to push.

I point back to when I said stagnant, they're intentionally keeping characters that way only there seems to be no real hope of them growing now. I guess they just didn't know when to flip the on switch on, I thought they were going to after episode 21 but than episode 22 happened. Though there's always hope they'll fix things in a rushed manner at least.

Kleene -

This is anime, that wouldn't be possible because it would lack sufficient angst and unneeded drama.

[Vena]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

She could have tried explaining it. "He talks in a strange way! Believe me, he doesn't want to kill me!" might have been enough for Amata. There's still the possibility he could have gone ahead with the fight regardless, since I bet he's got some grudges against Kagura by now, but at least he was listening to what Mikono said, unlike Kagura.

I think the fight would have probably gone on regardless but, by omitting it, they keep Amata's reasons seemingly noble (which is just silly). In either case, he doesn't listen to her even if he hears her. They both *hear* her, and they both tell her to wait. Kagura does so first, when he saves her, and Amata does it later, when she protests that he stop. If anything, Kagura has a complete go-ahead to do his shit because she doesn't say anything to him directly, and its a while before she actually tells them both to stop.

The choreography of the scene is just all sorts of silly.

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

Jumping might have worked. It worked later on when she was knocked off the tower by accident and Amata got to her. On the other hand...Kagura can be careless with her at times, like in earlier eps such as when he attacked the car she was in, so he's not Mr Perfect Safety. Amata is pretty good at catching her, though, so unless he was unable to get to her, she would probably be okay. Mikono is fairly safety conscious and unlikely to do things that would get herself hurt; I think at the time when Kagura kicked Amata so he could grab her, she was shielding her head with her arms.

In jumping, she would ratify all of that *courage,* and *inner strength* development she's been under going. In fact, it would have been a beautiful step in her development because she'd not only show she has the courage to do something that risks her life but she'd show that she trusts both of them. And if they ignore her, she can run between them.

That would have been very, very good development for her character.

Instead, nothing happens.

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

It did seem like they wanted them to have a fight over a prize.

That's how the whole thing starts:
"All I remembered and all I cared about was my woman's smell!"
"Grr! I won't let you have Mikono-san!"

In that exchange, neither of them says:
"Mikono wants/doesn't want me/you!"
Kagura is an asshole and absorbed in the legends but that also serves as his excuse for being single minded (never mind all the mind raping).
Amata? He treats Mikono like some sort of object that belongs to him. That wouldn't be the case, of course, if Mikono had confessed months ago... but alas, drama.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by Vena

In jumping, she would ratify all of that *courage,* and *inner strength* development she's been under going. In fact, it would have been a beautiful step in her development because she'd not only show she has the courage to do something that risks her life but she'd show that she trusts both of them. And if they ignore her, she can run between them.

That would have been very, very good development for her character.

Instead, nothing happens.

It would have worked well. Alas. Guess we aren't allowed to have consistent character development getting in the way of Amata and Kagura's big fight.

Originally Posted by Vena

That's how the whole thing starts:
"All I remembered and all I cared about was my woman's smell!"
"Grr! I won't let you have Mikono-san!"

In that exchange, neither of them says:
"Mikono wants/doesn't want me/you!"
Kagura is an asshole and absorbed in the legends but that also serves as his excuse for being single minded (never mind all the mind raping).
Amata? He treats Mikono like some sort of object that belongs to him. That wouldn't be the case, of course, if Mikono had confessed months ago... but alas, drama.

And it all gets sillier knowing that Amata is fighting himself. Way to go, guys.

You're probably right that the fight would have continued, since the language they were using was all about them and not so much about Mikono. (Maybe she thought they really would be so busy with fighting themself that they'd let her go splat if she jumped...)

Since Mikono's kidnapped now, I'd really like it if she got the chance to talk to him, tell him what she's thinking, and maybe that would get him to snap out of his caught-in-brainwashing mindset a little. But I suspect that Izumo and co might interrupt that.

[miketyson]

Originally Posted by Vena

In jumping, she would ratify all of that *courage,* and *inner strength* development she's been under going. In fact, it would have been a beautiful step in her development because she'd not only show she has the courage to do something that risks her life but she'd show that she trusts both of them. And if they ignore her, she can run between them.

That would have been very, very good development for her character.

Instead, nothing happens.

Strongly agree. Huge missed shot right there.

FWIW I think the show's full of these missed opportunities, and also FWIW in my personal opinion the singled biggest missed shot is that it was Yunoha, not Zessica, who asked Mikono about Kagura in episode 16. Something like:

Amata moping with Andy, Zessica sees it, offers to do him a favor and go talk to Mikono about it (plus she's curious about it herself and so on), Mikono's lame answer and Amata's lame attempt to get in with ShuShu is what finally flips her switch from standing back to confessing anyways...it would've worked so well.

But this is water under the bridge now.

[Triple_R]

In fairness to Amata:

1. There's no reason whatsoever to think that Kagura can be reasoned with.

2. Amata knows for a fact that girls that get brought to Altair get turned into guys. Naturally, he doesn't want that to happen to Mikono. Presumably, Mikono wouldn't want that either. As such, he has no choice but to do everything in his power to stop Kagura.

3. Amata likely knows how Mikono feels about him, due in part to her bouts of jealousy whenever Zessica gets close to Amata and/or confesses to him.


Amata's decision to fight against Kagura with all of his might doesn't necessarily mean that Amata views Mikono as some sort of trophy girlfriend. There's practical reasons for him to fight against Kagura the way that he did in this episode.

[Destined_Fate]

But that seems negated since Mikono even got taken away without putting up a fight. Doesn't help that when we see her in the cockpit she somehow passed out, not really helping matters since even her old self was more resilient than this and this is Mikono after she went on a journey to become stronger. Maybe Kagura hit her off-screen, doubtful, but it wasn't' shown so we have no idea what happened there.

[GoldenLand]

True, that. Amata's wording may sound a little off, but he does have reasons to fight. And evidence that Kagura can be reasoned with is rather thin on the ground.

Mikono and Amata probably do have a good idea how the other one feels by now.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

But that seems negated since Mikono even got taken away without putting up a fight. Doesn't help that when we see her in the cockpit she somehow passed out, not really helping matters since even her old self was more resilient than this and this is Mikono after she went on a journey to become stronger. Maybe Kagura hit her off-screen, doubtful, but it wasn't' shown so we have no idea what happened there.

I'm not defending Mikono, just Amata.

It's true that Mikono usually doesn't put up much of a struggle when Kagura tries to take off with her. At this point, I doubt it's just fear of Kagura hitting her hard if she struggles that's stopping her from struggling.

No, Mikono likes Kagura, at some level. At the very least, she's turned on by him.


Mikono's biggest flaw is her failing to face her conflicted emotions between Amata and Kagura and truly dealing with them. Yeah, she is conflicted. If she wasn't, she wouldn't be so forgiving towards Kagura, and she'd put up more of a struggle whenever he tries to take off with her.

I wouldn't call Mikono unfaithful so much as non-committal or indecisive. She needs a spine, and she needs to start realizing the vast problems her indecisiveness is causing.

[Vena]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

In fairness to Amata:

1. There's no reason whatsoever to think that Kagura can be reasoned with.

2. Amata knows for a fact that girls that get brought to Altair get turned into guys. Naturally, he doesn't want that to happen to Mikono. Presumably, Mikono wouldn't want that either. As such, he has no choice but to do everything in his power to stop Kagura.

Well let's be fair here:

(1.) Kagura didn't start the fight and he was fairly calmly explaining his past and his interests even if in the same cocky tone he usually runs with. Its Amata who starts the fight, the one who comes off as unreasonable is Amata.

(2.) He could, you know, explain this to Kagura instead of attacking him the moment he says kuso onna. You'd think that Kagura, who is quite touchy feely with Mikono, would care.

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

True, that. Amata's wording may sound a little off, but he does have reasons to fight. And evidence that Kagura can be reasoned with is rather thin on the ground.

Mikono and Amata probably do have a good idea how the other one feels by now.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

3. Amata likely knows how Mikono feels about him, due in part to her bouts of jealousy whenever Zessica gets close to Amata and/or confesses to him.

Amata's decision to fight against Kagura with all of his might doesn't necessarily mean that Amata views Mikono as some sort of trophy girlfriend. There's practical reasons for him to fight against Kagura the way that he did in this episode.

Do they though? Its very hard to say because Mikono's never given a straight answer to Amata's inquiries, and leaves him hanging with nothing when she goes off to look for Fudo. If they know what they feel for one another then that sequence is nonsensical as is her "making Amata suffer" quip which just infuriates. (And come on Triple_R, you cannot have it both ways: Is Mikono into Amata or is she torn between the two guys. If she's torn then Amata only has the assumption that she likes him and only him. Its one or the other here.)

Moreover, Amata wouldn't have needed to try and dodge a straight answer about Kagura when they had their second to last confrontation. I think its fairly clear that Amata is very much bogged down by not knowing and by his worries over Kagura. Otherwise... what the hell is he complaining about over fate? She likes you, you don't need to worry.

EDIT: And, like I said, if he felt confident about her loving him. He should say so. He had any number of opportunities to do so but its never "we love each other" or "Mikono loves me!" its always "I", "I", "I", "I".

[miketyson]

I mean all Amata has to do is ask her if she wants to stay on Vega, or something like that. Doesn't have to resolve the triangle, just show token respect to her as more than a trophy.

[Destined_Fate]

It's mostly lust and him being that hot and mysterious bad boy. As I said before she wants both but for different reasons. Amata is there because he's the first to actually show her any attention and she's not going to put him down because than she would lose that attention and she can't have that, however she can't give up on Kagura either because she really does like him and he's extremely attractive and honest to her. So she doesn't choose, it fits her character but doesn't make her any less unlikeable even if you understand where she's coming from.

So it's extremely convenient for her that they're both the same person so she wont have to choose if she uses fusion stuff. A bit lame if they end it on a note of her never having to make a decision like that and just give her both. Worse since they don't even consider her as anything more than a prize/object that they simply "must" have.

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

True, that. Amata's wording may sound a little off, but he does have reasons to fight. And evidence that Kagura can be reasoned with is rather thin on the ground.

Mikono and Amata probably do have a good idea how the other one feels by now.

Oh, Amata was going to fight no matter what. He owes Kagyura for almost killing him a few times already. However it would have been nice if Mikono did or said anything at all during the fight. At least that way we can say that she at least "tried" to do something, instead she sat around as a prize to be won.Not helping that Amata and Kagura pretty much treated her as an object.

Understanding doesn't mean much if no action is taken. That's what's most frustrating about Mikono. She understands fully that Amata loves her and even saw him reject Zessica because he was that loyal despite the two not officially dating. This all goes back to the writers trying to keep them stagnant without letting them grow, the problem is that the series is ending soon and they still haven't flipped the switch on for them.

[KleenexGhost]

Originally Posted by miketyson

I mean all Amata has to do is ask her if she wants to stay on Vega, or something like that. Doesn't have to resolve the triangle, just show token respect to her as more than a trophy.

Basically just talk it out. That is the rational thing to do

[Destined_Fate]

Originally Posted by KleenexGhost

Basically just talk it out. That is the rational thing to do

But this is anime, most never go for the rational. If Anime was rational than many other ones would have gone completely different ways which in turn makes them less interesting or negates the whole reason for fighting.

[KleenexGhost]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

But this is anime, most never go for the rational. If Anime was rational than many other ones would have gone completely different ways which in turn makes them less interesting or negates the whole reason for fighting.

True.

SN: It seems that series would be better if they had split it into 2 24-26 episode parts, seasons, etc.

What do you think?

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by Vena

Do they though? Its very hard to say because Mikono's never given a straight answer to Amata's inquiries, and leaves him hanging with nothing when she goes off to look for Fudo. If they know what they feel for one another then that sequence is nonsensical as is her "making Amata suffer" quip which just infuriates. (And come on Triple_R, you cannot have it both ways: Is Mikono into Amata or is she torn between the two guys. If she's torn then Amata only has the assumption that she likes him and only him. Its one or the other here.)

Hmm...I suppose Amata has a good idea that Mikono likes him, but isn't totally sure. He should be aware by now that Mikono gets jealous sometimes and that when he's caught in compromising situations with other people, there is a need to explain himself to her. There is still the idea that "fate" will mean that Mikono goes for Kagura in the end anyway, so even if Amata thinks she likes him, Kagura would still seem like a serious threat, someone who could be able to take Mikono if he had the chance.

Except that in regard to fate they're the same person, but apparently that has slipped both Amata and Kagura's minds.

Originally Posted by KleenexGhost

Basically just talk it out. That is the rational thing to do

Talking to people rationally? In Aquarion? Pfft.

I maintain that if the characters had any sense and were allowed to talk things out, Izumo would have had the whole Altair-Vega problem settled years ago and there wouldn't be any fighting. (...Except maybe from Kagura, since he'd likely still be a puppet of Mykage.)