(L) Koi to Senkyo to Chocolate (Love, Election, and Chocolate)

[hyl]

Originally Posted by Manji Midou

Pretty much this. Yuki loves Chisato but he couldn't come to terms with chisato's affection and words because he had been afraid they weren't genuine and that he was only a replacement for daiki and not true love.

Yes that the main focus in Chisato's story, but the execution of the anime was extremely wonky.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by hyl

Yes that the main focus in Chisato's story, but the execution of the anime was extremely wonky.

Yes, this is basically the main point.

I don't think anything can doubt the message the show is trying to convey about Yuuki and Chisato's romance at this point, because it was clearly explained in this episode (too clearly if you ask me). At issue is: was this the best way of developing the romance over the course of the story? By blending in so many other elements, and adding so much extra drama to the story, the power of this love story is extremely diluted and rendered less-effectual.

Dorsai, you don't have a problem with the anime's execution because you are valuing the destination over the process. You are satisfied because the relationship you've been cheering for since the start of the show was consummated, and this episode explained (point-blank) the hints you saw all along. But I think the people who are less satisfied aren't saying so because they don't understand how the story is trying to justify things, but that the way this was developed in the story was not optimal.

[kobester11]

Originally Posted by Dorsai

Spoiler for for Mashiro:

Thats what i was talking, Airi was main focus for first half of anime and was dropped without any reason for it. I dont know how it ended, because i was disgusted how creators play with me after first 6,7 episodes of this serie and dropped it (didnt watch last 5,6 episodes with Sana and Miu route) and i can only quess that Airi was just support for their relationship in the end. But you cant start with her being main focus and change it into just supporting friend without any explanation or events between that. Airi was just left like this and come back after some time being supporting friend. Its just wrong. If they dont wanted to finish her route then they shouldnt starting with it from begining... Mashiro main problem is that creators havent clear plan from anime from begining.

Spoiler for I agree:

I know right? In the game, she's indeed a great supporting character but when she was portrayed in the anime... She's just looking worried all the time, and that's what they call support? But if you want to rant about mashiro though, do it in their thread because we're derailing about koichoco...

[Dorsai]

Relentlessflame but that how eroge adaptations usually are. You cant expect too much from them. Ofc political part could be shorter, same with Satsuki story and then we would have more time for ChisatoxYuuki relations, some sweet moments, Yuuki conversations in his mind etc etc... But that wasnt really needed. Their feelings neednt development, they grow in them for last 10 years. Its just they hide them deeply in their hearts. Ther eis only one thing could be done better- Chisato miracle reorvering. But its not seinen, thats how it usualy works in eroge adaptations or shounen romances... KoiCho wasnt first using this scheme and will be not last. If ppl are still not pleased by it then they can imagine that she is not healed completely, and just trying her best. Time will heal her wounds.


On the other hand you can said that romance part in this anime wasnt about finding your love, choosing one girl, like most eroge adaptations. But more about overcoming your bariers, dealing with your problems, emotions and understanding your feelings. Both for Chisato and Yuuki.

[zgmf-x19a]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Yes, this is basically the main point.

I don't think anything can doubt the message the show is trying to convey about Yuuki and Chisato's romance at this point, because it was clearly explained in this episode (too clearly if you ask me). At issue is: was this the best way of developing the romance over the course of the story? By blending in so many other elements, and adding so much extra drama to the story, the power of this love story is extremely diluted and rendered less-effectual.

Dorsai, you don't have a problem with the anime's execution because you are valuing the destination over the process. You are satisfied because the relationship you've been cheering for since the start of the show was consummated, and this episode explained (point-blank) the hints you saw all along. But I think the people who are less satisfied aren't saying so because they don't understand how the story is trying to justify things, but that the way this was developed in the story was not optimal.

agreed
I was rooting for a Satsuki ending and I didn't like the way Yuki's feelings were forced.The chocolate trauma was too easily overcome.

[Tenchi Ryu]

Wow....the anime magic BS was strong in this one. When Yuuki was in a "supposedly" SERIOUS meeting with the guy, and he all of a sudden starts talking about Yuuki's personal life like the inside of a book, I knew this was going to be a nasty episode.

People like Dorsai are really making themselves look bad cause since their girl won, they think others are just raging, but this was a very poorly done episode. People are upset cause it did exactly what people were scared it was gonna do, take all the logic it appeared to have at the beginning, and wash it away completely. Chisato literally cures herself of a 10 year struggle in 10 mins with a chocolate bar. There is no way in hell that works, nor pleases the fans who didn't care for Chisato in the first place. And Yuukki's feelings do feel as if they are FORCED to be there, same problem I have with Dakara this season.

Like others, a HUGE portion of my care for the show has dropped, honestly cause there is no reason to finish it IMO. Its become too predictable. Of course she's gonna be saved, the other girls will be forgotten about completely, and will be as if they never liked him. Hell, probably gonna win the election too.

[BladeEntity]

Keeping your eyes closed all the time = being all seeing.

Execution with the romance plot was crap. As much I like Chisato, I felt like the whole point of the show was to troll people into playing the game for the other routes. In terms of what they wanted to do to advertise and create their super route, IMO is an economical approach.

Spend less money by making it 1 cour increases the profits made from the game. So they try to rush everything in the 12 episodes, by giving previews of the other heroines. While using Chisato as a backup because, for her the "love" is already there, he just has to open his eyes. In other words save more time by reducing the small bits of hints, and development between Chisato and Yuuki to show more of what the game is.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Dorsai

Relentlessflame but that how eroge adaptations usually are. You cant expect too much from them.

I don't know about that. I'm actually a pretty big fan of eroge anime adaptations, and my expectations are higher. They do not have to be presented like a shounen romantic comedy where the "who's he going to choose?!" question is put off as long as humanly possible. They also didn't have to fill the show with so many other plot points to dilute the romantic aspect of the story. And, in fact, developing the story in this way doesn't really mirror the original source material either. I'm not really satisfied to say "we shouldn't expect better". The Chisato romance could have been portrayed much more effectively in this anime. I understand what they were trying to accomplish on an intellectual level, but that doesn't totally satisfy me as a romance fan.

Originally Posted by Dorsai

Their feelings neednt development, they grow in them for last 10 years. Its just they hide them deeply in their hearts.

But how is that satisfying for me as someone who wants to see the romance actually play out? We neither see how those feelings develop, nor see the change in relationship once the feelings are admitted. We just get an admission "oh, I've always loved her and just didn't realize it" and the world changes. And then she gets kidnapped.

Spoiler for Comparison to Akane-iro ni Somaru Saka anime:

This is basically the same reason I didn't enjoy this anime (despite liking the game). I had absolutely no problem with a Minato romance (she was by far my favourite character in the game -- loved that game route!), but we didn't actually see her romance play out in the anime. We just go through the whole show developing one relationship progressively, with a few small hints along the way that he loves Minato. And then all of a sudden, right near the end of the show, the brakes go on, he's forced to make a realization, and then these latent feelings take over. I'm not saying that it doesn't make sense or it isn't plausible... but it's just not very rewarding to me.

Spoiler for Comparison to Canvas 2:

This is unlike Canvas 2. In this anime, they also have a similar element: that the feelings he has for one character are a lie because he has latent feelings for another character that aren't being admitted. But here, they already did spend a lot of time in the anime laying the foundation for these feelings, and though the plot was heading in one direction, they kept on pushing this point over and over so that you couldn't ignore the counter-narrative. In the end, when the switch occurred, it made perfect sense, and the relationship itself had actually been developed over the course of the anime.

Of course, they did this over 24 episodes, so that itself is a major advantage this show didn't have... but that's also part of the problem.

Originally Posted by Dorsai

On the other hand you can said that romance part in this anime wasnt about finding your love, choosing one girl, like most eroge adaptations. But more about overcoming your bariers, dealing with your problems, emotions and understanding your feelings. Both for Chisato and Yuuki.

I'm totally okay with shows with that theme, and I've liked a number of romantic anime that deal with that. (One I can think of, for example, is Gift.) But here they mixed the two parts: they put off the "choosing one girl" as long as possible, but they didn't really make that choice a major element. To me, anyway, the mix didn't deliver what I was hoping for.

Again, this isn't that I don't like Chisato, nor have anything to do with whether the situation was explained or justified in the anime. And as I've said before, I actually do like number of things about this anime. But this isn't how I wanted to see even a Chisato romance play out.

Originally Posted by BladeEntity

So they try to rush everything in the 12 episodes, by giving previews of the other heroines. While using Chisato as a backup because, for her the "love" is already there, he just has to open his eyes. In other words save more time by reducing the small bits of hints, and development between Chisato and Yuuki to show more of what the game is.

Yeah, I can sort of accept that explanation. I guess I'm not quite so cynical about it perhaps... but yes. They don't have to really spend the time developing the romance because they're arguing that he's always loved her, so the time is spent on other things.

[Dorsai]

Ofc they could just focus on romance part just using source material from Chisato route in game and show would be a lot better. They could even make it into seinen. But i never treated KoiCho like serious, good romance. Political part never interested me that much and i watched it only to see how relationship between Yuuki and Chisato will be played. There was something i saw in 1 episode what make me curious enogh to watch till end. But KoiCho never aspired to be sth more then average and i was ok with this from begining... Nowadays its really hard to find sth interesting to watch in anime industry... A lot of titles fail miserable. In summer season i see only SAO and Binbō-gami ga! worth enough for me to watch it. Oryginality was wasted long time ago...

[hyl]

Originally Posted by Dorsai

but that how eroge adaptations usually are. You cant expect too much from them.

....
Are we forgetting that series like Tsukihime, Fate/stay night, Kanon , Air , EF, Da Capo originally started out as eroge.
Also if we take VN's into account then we also have Steins;Gate, Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, Umineko no Naku Koro ni (edit , i know the sales bombed but the games were still a succes) and the upcoming Little busters and Da Capo 3 animes.
And finally there were the succeses of anime adaptations based off otome games. *Cough cough* Starry sky, Uta no Prince-sama, Hakuouki

Personally i don't look down on those kind of adaptations and in some cases i even have a much higher expectations for them.

Originally Posted by BladeEntity

Spend less money by making it 1 cour increases the profits made from the game. So they try to rush everything in the 12 episodes, by giving previews of the other heroines. While using Chisato as a backup because, for her the "love" is already there, he just has to open his eyes. In other words save more time by reducing the small bits of hints, and development between Chisato and Yuuki to show more of what the game is.

I am always kind of skeptical to use a more expensive anime project to serve mostly as an advertisement tool for the probably less profitable psp game (which by the way gets extremely easily pirated >_> )
Especially if the anime ended up being not succesfull.
Also i doubt that the small cameo's appearances actually help increasing the sales of their upcoming VN: "Ima Sugu Onii-chan ni Imouto da tte Iitai!"

[Dorsai]

Tsukihime- that one i need to watch, in future...

Fate/stay night- only reason to watch it for me was Rin, one of the best female characters in anime ever. Rest was little above average and some schemes was played really badly.

Kanon- i liked older version long time ago, but now from time perspective it wasnt really that good. Just sentiment, because it was one of first anime romances i watched.

Da capo was just above average, nothing special.

Ef, Air... Yes that two was quite good...

Hmm that VN, otome adaptations are out of discussion here, there are not even this type of romance anime... I was talking only about eroge adaptations.


There is one thing i really like about eroge adaptations- best of them are mostly about characters dealing with personal trauma they need to overcome. Thats why i really liked anime like Canvas 2, Air, True Tears, Myself;Yourself, ef - a tale of memories, Kimi ga Nozomu Eien etc...

[hyl]

Originally Posted by Dorsai

Hmm that VN, otome adaptations are out of discussion here, there are not even this type of romance anime... I was talking only about eroge adaptations.

I completely disagree. An eroge is technically just a VN with sex scenes in it. An otome game is also basically the same except the genders are switched.

Also you completely missed the point of me summarizing the previous VN's, eroges and otome games. I never cared for your opinion, but those were examples of succesfull series regardless that originally started out as eroges. Which served as a counterargument for this

Originally Posted by Dorsai

but that how eroge adaptations usually are. You cant expect too much from them.

[Dorsai]

We are talking here about anime adaptations, not original games they come from. Ofc you can use some of VN adaptations as your example, but only if they are same romance anime category Koicho is. It doesnt matter if it will be love triange, harem or love polygon since its about MC meeting some girls and his interactions with them. Steins;Gate, Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, Umineko, non of them is in this category. And Otome games adaptations, like Starry Sky are e for another usually shoujo romances and thats should be for another discussion. When i was talking about eroge adaptations i had only shounen romances in my mind, maybe i should make it clearer...

Being succesfull, good or bad is personal opinion. And whats i writed about eroge adaptations is my personal opinion too. And its not like i think they cant be really good, i even wrote some titles i really liked. But there are some aspects which most of eroge adaptions resolve in same way using same schemes and its something prevent them to be something more then just really good. Maybe Canvas 2 would be exception here, but im not really sure...

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Dorsai

We are talking here about anime adaptations, not original games they come from. Ofc you can use some of VN adaptations as your example, but only if they are same romance anime category Koicho is. [...] When i was talking about eroge adaptations i had only shounen romances in my mind, maybe i should make it clearer...

I'm not too clear what the point of the argument is. Even if you restrict your argument to just romance-centric eroge adaptations, I think there are many that I would argue that have a much more effectively-portrayed romance than this particular show, and even some that otherwise use similar themes.

In the end, I would have to say that, as far as this particular show goes, the drama and politics take center stage, and the romance is just one element of many at play. And I say this because, again, even as the romance got resolved here, it was immediately used to open the door to more drama. So as far as this genre goes, I'm not even sure if I'd put it in the "romance anime" category.

[Dorsai]

Relentlessflame ofc it would be not hard to find eroge adaptations portreyed romance part better then KoiCho, i even listed some of them. Like i said earlier Koicho never had ambition to be sth better then just average. I watched it for different reason. But thats not point here. Some schemes used in Koicho are usually used in this kind of eroge adaptations and thats just kill oryginality. Thats reason why some really good of them cant be on even higher level. Being game adaptation keep that kind of anime in borders they cannot cross. And creators need complete freedom to make sth on level when real art start.

[Tenchi Ryu]

Originally Posted by Dorsai

Like i said earlier Koicho never had ambition to be sth better then just average.

This is where you are being lost out the loop. From the beginning, people felt it DID have the ambition to be better than average, that's why people are frustrated with how its turned out. It made sense, used logic, and was a cut above the norm even all the way down to our protagonist and how he thinks.

Many feel this episode messed ALL that up.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Dorsai

Like i said earlier Koicho never had ambition to be sth better then just average. I watched it for different reason. But thats not point here.

This is really sort of silly, to be honest. "I always figured it would suck, and never cared for any of the other elements, but they did do the one thing I wanted them to do, so I'm satisfied." Surely you understand why other people have other opinions about this...

Originally Posted by Dorsai

Some schemes used in Koicho are usually used in this kind of eroge adaptations and thats just kill oryginality. Thats reason why some really good of them cant be on even higher level. Being game adaptation keep that kind of anime in borders they cannot cross. And creators need complete freedom to make sth on level when real art start.

I could not disagree more. It is completely possible to make great anime even when adapting an existing game. "All you need" is the right vision, the right team, and the right budget and time-allotment to deliver the vision. (Of course I realize some of these elements are not always possible to control; you always have to work within the constraints assigned.) The staff here had a certain vision for what they wanted to accomplish in the 12 episodes that tell the main story... and I'm just not sure if quite matches what I was hoping to see.

[Dorsai]

Ofc they can until they complains are reasonable. Like yours- you wanted to see sth different in romance part and you are not satisfed with vision creators wanted to accomplish here. Some people complain that not enough focus on Chisato route made viewers not happy with way romance was played and even elict hate toward her and its reasonable too. But there are still some who hate it just simple because ideal Satsuki lost and not care about anything beside this one fact, some who still call Yuuki feelings forced (how can they be forced since he love her even before anime started?) etc... Only think i was doing here since yesterday was trying to explain that vision creators have here and how they deliver it in anime. That one aspect for whom i watched KoiCho since begining- YuukixChisato troubled relationship.

E down: if you look at last few pages you will find post of few people who are just Satsuki only shippers. I already did it.

[Tenchi Ryu]

You're still focusing on the who won, who lost aspect. Just about EVERYONE who has complained has stated the general direction and flow of the anime was BAD this week, even a few Chisato shippers. You keep just brushing it off as Satsuki lovers...I don't even remember anyone being a Satsuki only fan, if anything, those people just wanted anyone BUT Chisato to win. Not just necessarily cause they don't like her, but her route was just poor writing. People don't like poor writing in anime.

You keep saying YuukiXChisato's troubled relationship. That's the problem, its not troubled anymore. Its been magically healed in the span of one episode. That comes off as what many consider and asspull.

[thundrakkon]

Btw, how are the reactions from other forums, specifically the ones in Japan? It might put a better perspective concerning if the anime production team was able to fulfill its goal or not.