Myself; Yourself - Episode 11 Discussion / Poll

[changeup]

Here is one thing I think I feel curious.

So you are basically saying any hints/foreshadowing should be obvious to the viewers, otherwise a plot twist is not allowed... I have to say I cannot agree on this idea.

I like to see plot going out of my expectation, as long as it makes sense. This episode makes perfect sense, after I go back several episodes to see all the things happened before. Sure I did not notice all the details the first time I watch it, but that's the fun......

For the letter, it makes perfect sense. Even Sana did not find out the relationship between Shuri and Shuusuke before the elope... it certainly is someone having a feeling towards either of the twins to imagine, oh no, realize that...

Asami's confession is also very convincing to me. Always pretending to be a good girl, while imaging doing all the evil things... after all, that's what the Id of most people long for... occasionally your Ego cannot constrain it, and it bursts out. I was also raised up in a society where individuals have to conform to what the society deems to be the model behavior, so I strongly feel for Asami.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

You are doing generalization here.

you are quite conflicting your own statement. You admitted yourself that you requires some "twisted" thoughts prior to actually expect such thing to happen.

As far as I watch the episodes back, there isn't any very subtle nor obvious hint of that kind of aftermath.
And even if we were bound to imagine that Asami is lesbian, that doesn't exactly converge to the "evil scheme", as the ferry wheel wasn't really a angsty clue.

I'm certainly amazed how you can pretend someone just wanted a series to stick to "their" expecations "if not, it fails" mentality. I don't expect any cliché or plot twist aftermath. Actually, the surprise didn't baffle me, but how the plot get so stretched it didn't make sense to me.

And as far as i know, I didn't question anyone's enjoyement, as I only commented how i felt the episode absurd on its way.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by changeup

Here is one thing I think I feel curious.

So you are basically saying any hints/foreshadowing should be obvious to the viewers, otherwise a plot twist is not allowed... I have to say I cannot agree with this idea.

You didn't read my second post i believe. I never implied a hint must be obvious to be foreshadowing.
Hints must have a specific meaning to actually makes sense. As some stories already used such, hints that create some inconsistencies or "questions" to the watchers are the good ones. I can't consider a hint "foreshadowing" if you need the aftermath to actually understand its meaning.

If the hint doesn't make sense before the said "foreshadowed scene", it cannot be considered as a hint.

I like to see plot going out of my expectation, as long as it makes sense. This episode makes perfect sense, after I go back several episodes to see all the things happened before. Sure I did not notice all the details the first time I watch it, but that's the fun......

That's good for you, but that just doesn't work with me. I don't need a "A+B" proof, right?
To elaborate a bit, I already had difficulty to find the "letter" issue realist, because it was rather a gamble. The drama was forced because it was involving their father, which was shown quite pesky.
They didn't cover much why the principal and the vice principal were that annoying. They never touched the issue until the "right timing" comes.

Again, connecting Asami to the evil doings is rather far stretched, because even figuring her sexuality doesn't give hint of such outburst. If sana couldn't figure their feelings, why Asami would, until you consider her a bit "nuts" ?
Again, I don't have problem with "shifting characters", but I do have problems when the said characters have non existent hint, giving the revelation as "granted", without a proper build up.

For the letter, it makes perfect sense. Even Sana did not find out the relationship between Shuri and Shuusuke before the elope... it certainly is someone having a feeling towards either of the twins to imagine, oh no, realize that...

I fail to see how the letter connects with the twins. Basically, their relationship (as the thing is still pending) can be mentioned or even developed without that point.

Asami's confession is also very convincing to me. Always pretending to be a good girl, while imaging doing all the evil things... after all, that's what the Id of most people long for... occasionally your Ego cannot constrain it, and it bursts out. I was also raised up in a society where individuals have to conform to what the society deems to be the model behavior, so I strongly feel for Asami.

Asami's confession didn't convince me because of the timing, especially after all the things she did. Considering Sana's situation, he wouldn't be exactly the person she would confess naturally. That's the reason why i felt it was rather out of the blue.
Now, her reasons are not a problem, but rather how it took so long to be actually realized, and how the truth was exposed: with a completely unrelated arc: kaji.

[SeedFreedom]

Can you provide an example of good foreshadowing? I think there were many hints at this result, and many people, me included, guessed asami would be the one to set them up at the end.

Oh and as a P.S. If this story could be written by you, which ending would you prefer? the Step-mother is evil plot? No one has yet to answer this. People insult this ending but they don't provide what else they would like to see in replacement. i personally would drop the show right there is the plot was that transparent.

[Ashlotte]

Somebody needs to tell the writers that your supposed to drop gentle hints throughout a series to hint at a possible plot twist not just suddenly pull one out of thin air. This didn't feel like a plot twist it felt like character assassination...

I always felt sad for asami getting the ungrateful role of making nanaka jealous, but it was at least better then what she got this episode...Talk about being the sacrificial lamb of the show for the sake of plot advancement and resolution.

Oy...Im just gonna mostly pretend this didn't happen and look forward to the conclusion of nanaka and sana's story.

[Vestus]

After reading all the posts, man am I the only one who likes Asami? (she's my favorite now because of this episode 11 by far)

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by SeedFreedom

Can you provide an example of good foreshadowing? I think there were many hints at this result, and many people, me included, guessed asami would be the one to set them up at the end.

I would like to return the question, as I can see several people claiming there are foreshadowing hints here and there.

The only one I could actually see is when Asami blushed, when she was apologizing to Shuuri in the bus, in episode 3. And that "hint" can be considered as simple embarassement, as she was portrayed as the very kind and polite girl, so intruding their party, and almost making them late wouldn't be surprising.

To be quite honest, considering how the letter was introduced quite abruptly, many people begun to craft some "random" theories as result. No offense, but that was ever since Sana was freaked out by the bloody knife in episode 3: many people screamed "SD" syndrome and begun to search for any possible "malicious" part to craft out of stretch theories.

As a good example of foreshadowing hint, which was made in M;Y:
Nanaka interactions with her "uncle", which obviously lead to some suspicions to Nanak's fear of fire etc. That can be considered as a good foreshadowing hints. nothing obvious, but certainly bothering a bit the watchers.

Originally Posted by Vestus

After reading all the posts, man am I the only one who likes Asami? (she's my favorite now because of this episode 11 by far)

Actually, Asami is my favourite character, ever since she was introduced, and even after this episode. Though, you can obviously expect scream of bloody murder, considering the final scene.


edit:

Originally Posted by SeedFreedom

Oh and as a P.S. If this story could be written by you, which ending would you prefer? the Step-mother is evil plot? No one has yet to answer this. People insult this ending but they don't provide what else they would like to see in replacement. i personally would drop the show right there is the plot was that transparent.

Since when arguing on the execution of a plot device/conclusion must result to a replacement?
Criticizing a piece of work is nothing different than praising it, though it is obviously opposite in the appreciation, nothing more.
Furthermore, you are taking too seriously critics, as they a mere words of opinions, and obviously not something personal. I'm actually wondering how saying this "end was absurd" is equal to an insult.

Finally, you said you would drop this series if the plot was that transparent, but the plot twist is in episode 11. Wouldn't that mean you would drop near the end?
I beg no offense here, but I'm certainly not considering the series too seriously nor too lightly, it is a mere difference of opinions. i'm fine if you disagree, but at least, accept other opinions in the process.

[SeedFreedom]

it was also mentioned that she turned her head when Shuri mentioned the letter, although i missed that. Also when Shuri ran out of the room the first one up (and the one she bumped into) was Asami. This was the dead giveaway for me that she wrote the letter. She also saw Shuri's face at the carnival and didn't react, but you can see she was affected by it. I'm sure there are tons more but those are what i can remember now.

Also i don't consider the Uncle arsonist theory to be well written at all and i will be very disappointed if he turns out to be the culprit. They basically said "Hey look! I'm acting suspicious. Suspect me!"

I'm also getting the feeling from a bloggers responses (NOT DIRECTED AT ANY OF THE PREVIOUS POSTERS) that some people are slamming the twist because they just couldn't figure it out themselves.

And please, don't get me wrong. i respect peoples opinions to disliking/liking something. For instance I'm beginning to think I'm the only person in the world who dislikes Haruhi but i don't challenge the fanbase for liking it. But so far the reasons for saying so have been absurd, like its too sudden. Given the time that was their only choice unless they cut out characters completely. Same as the twincest issue. a few people were furious when it was first suspected but they provide the stupidest reasons.

Sorry for all the constant edits but i think this is better than constantly replying with new posts.

[Vestus]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Actually, Asami is my favourite character, ever since she was introduced, and even after this episode. Though, you can obviously expect scream of bloody murder, considering the final scene.

My question changes, am I the only one who gave points to Asami because of this episode? (and I mean a lot of points)

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by SeedFreedom

it was also mentioned that she turned her head when Shuri mentioned the letter, although i missed that.

Granted, that "hint" could be anything like a simple motion you see. And it doesn't actually match what Asami claimed, as she wanted to comfort her (and of course, watching her suffering more), and she wasn't feeling bad yet.

Also when Shuri ran out of the room the first one up (and the one she bumped into) was Asami. This was the dead giveaway for me that she wrote the letter.

I can't understand how it is possibly a hint.
Asami was shown as she opened the door, the reason for it could be anything, like fetching paper or something.
I would actually understand if she was already outside, obviously shown stalking, but it wasn't the case. It could be a coincidence. Or are you assuming that Aoi was doing her entrance on purpose, when sana was "gropping" hinako?
These points are rather the same, in the basics of "random/coincidental" bumps, until asami revealed it as it was on purpose.

She also saw Shuri's face at the carnival and didn't react, but you can see she was affected by it. I'm sure there are tons more but those are what i can remember now.

That point didn't convinced me atall, even after reading the "theories" around. Any close friend would be actually concerned seeing you crying like that. How it is foreshadowing her lesbian side and/or dark side?

Also i don't consider the Uncle arsonist theory to be well written at all and i will be very disappointed if he turns out to be the culprit. They basically said "Hey look! I'm acting suspicious. Suspect me!"

You missed what I mentioned. I was talking about the fact of "parents being killed in the arson". Nothing more.
The "official" announcement was in episode 8, but hints were scattered earlier, especially episode 5. Nothing groundbreaking, but that's what I believe as "nice foreshadowing point".

I'm also getting the feeling from a bloggers responses (NOT DIRECTED AT ANY OF THE PREVIOUS POSTERS) that some people are slamming the twist because they just couldn't figure it out themselves.

Who knows. personally, I don't care if I didn't figure something. Whatever I could or not is irrelevant, as the best part is if it is well written or not. And if it is, It reinforces either my clueless side, or deserves more kudos.

And that is neither the case for M;Y, for me, that's all. (i know you are not mentioning anyone, but taking the opportunity to make things clear on my side in the process)


That said, considering how the discussion is going in circle, it isn't worth any more debate, as "hints" and "plot twist" in that series can work or not, whatever. it isn't requiring a science liking or anything to accept that or brand it as absurd.
Let the rest of the opinions flow, I think we covered already the reasoning and points of each "side" (and I don't think people would fancy getting a cycling debate on the same discussion over and over).

[niwasatou]

Originally Posted by Vestus

My question changes, am I the only one who gave points to Asami because of this episode? (and I mean a lot of points)

*raises hand*
Sympathy points. Lots of them.

[Snuffle]

Originally Posted by serenade_beta

Really? With this wonderful thing called internet, I wonder just how many actually can stay unspoiled.

Besides, you say it like this anime was solely created for the purpose of advertising for the game, something I highly doubt, because that just sounds absurd.
Besides, from this anime, a lot of important things have been revealed. These are important details. After all, we've learned about the fire, Hinako, Yuzuki, the twins' family situation, and the oh-so-wonderful Asami thing. So I guess from what you said, every gamer watching the anime has already been put off, now that they have learned all of this.

The only thing left is the "ending". The anime is already supposed to have a anime-only scenario, so whatever they do is fine. They aren't limited because they aren't animating any game end.

For me, having characters I'm interested in but are not really explored in an anime makes me want to play the game even more. This goes especially for Yoake Mae yori Ruri Iro na Crescent Love (Brighter than Dawning Blue), mainly for Mai and since Natsuki was so much more attractive in the game, i was excited to learn more about her too (but I'm yet to do so )

But anyway, as for Myself;Yourself, I'm still very interested in learning more about Asami and Hinako, I'm not really interested in learning about Nanaka (never really liked her).

Argh... I forgot what my point to all this was ...

[TigerII]

Wow, that was interesting. And I don't think bad of Asami. Ever heard the expression that love will make you do things your normally wouldn't? I don't think she is truly bad, but her emotions took hold of her. The girl she loved would never be close to her and that just got to her.

Poor kids. None of them are bad yet they keep getting a lot of bad things happen to them. I fear what the ending will be for the poor unfortunate teens.

[cshard]

Hmm, my first reaction when I read Omni's blog was to go "O_O".

Well, I have to give them credit for something. I REALLY wasn't expecting that to happen. Doesn't mean I liked it though. Very little proper foreshadowing + sudden bipolar personality change does not make for good writing. Good melodrama, yes.

I suppose we should have expected something would have been up with the most normal acting girl of the group. I suspected partially that Asami MIGHT have had something to do with the letter, with the stepmother being a red herring for us to follow. (speaking of the stepmother, it would have been an interesting touch if she had defended the twins in front of the father ^_^ )

After watching the ep, it's not as bad as some made it out to be, although part of me thinks that the writer simply had no idea how to create a "dark personality" convincingly and randomly drew stuff from a hat of traits.

Yuzuki sensei's one heck of a teacher. XD "Why didn't they tell me if they were going to skip class" indeed. Best line of this episode?

Methinks that the twins father should just accept that he's up for a big political downfall thanks to his libido and ego. I say serves him right. I figure he'll either wake up, see what drove his kids to elope away together and leave them be, or he'll go all out and drag them both kicking and screaming home.

Myself;Yourself has been pretty good for making emotional episode conclusions and this ep is no different.

Next episode, Nanaka sees a bright orange/red sunset and falls off a cliff? Sounds like a reverse Lamune is coming up imo. Me thinks that the uncle is going to be a major antagonist vs Sana soon. Hope Sana's recently awakened resolve is up to the task. XD


I hope Aoi doesn't sudden become the big boss in the end. *crosses fingers*

[Tatiana Razajev]

Okay concerning the "Ferris Wheel" hint. If you re-watch the episode you'll notice Asami has the classic close up of a shocked over seeing something expression. This alone tells you that she's deeply effected by it. In other words she's very upset. The key is she's not giving an inner monologue nor are they showing her with a blatant face of either sadness or anger.

In other words it's the type of hint where they only give viewers half the story. We know she's upset at that point, but we don't know the real reason why. Just that it involves Shuri. Nor do we know what thoughts are crossing her mind. Thus this is designed to keep people guessing.

Then there is the matter of misdirection. By having Asami only show us her good side as part of the act, we became convinced that she must be a saint. So when it came time to reveal she's actually at least somewhat "evil" that took us by surprise. That's what I believe they were doing. Giving us half the story and misdirection.

However the nature of half-story and misdirection means that some will look back and feel it all made sense. Others will look back and feel like it came out of nowhere. A lot of it depends on what one reads into past hints and how much value the hint is supposed to have in reality.

Sometimes the person holding the bloody knife over the corpse actually did it and sometimes the person did not. Sometimes a scene as simple as a quick glance means nothing. Other times it can mean a lot. Good or bad as this may be to people that's just the way things can be in stories.

[changeup]

Ok, first sorry for writing a highly improper post to stir the things up again.

After thinking about this for some time, I calm down and am able to assess this situation more objectively.

So basically, my conclusion is that the interpretation of a plot is subject to the past experience, mindset and personality of the reader. Different people are entitled to their own opinion towards a certain piece of work.

The author, when trying to surprise the reader in a convincing way, is always caught in a dilemma. On one hand, he/she has to give enough hints to justify any unexpected event in the plot. On the other, he/she has to conceal his/her own intention with these hints so that it will not easily be guessed out before the event actually happens. A balance point has to be decided, and the whole thing will be hinged on that. Unfortunately, readers are not homogeneous. There will always be people thinking there were too many/few hints given... Therefore, I think this could be a very subjective judgment about whether a plot "works" or not.

To me, I kinda think as long as the whole story does not contradicts itself when everything has been said and done, the plot works. It is my fault to assume everyone at least has similar idea about plot as I do, whereas obviously a lot of people do not.

Back to this series. I think the director has done a great job concealing the real surprising event (Asami's confession). The director kept throwing mysterious things to us throughout the series, and most of them turned out to be just as cliche as expected (after all, the twins did have feeling towards each other; the old woman did kill that bird and cat; the stepmother was a pure wicked character) so that most of us were blunted by these and did not dig hard enough to find out the answer to "who wrote that letter?", and then the director dropped the bomb... bravo, GJ...

So at least to me, I enjoy this surprise. Other people can certainly have their own opinion, be it positive or negative... However, I think we can stop the discussion here, it is going nowhere since the real reason for the different opinion is not this series itself, but the difference between the perception and mindset of us.

[changeup]

I deeply feel for Asami. It is a classical case of "ego vs. id"...

It may be a cliche though, that in an anime if one character appears perfect throughout, he/she might turn out to be the bipolar opposition of what he/she is depicted to be... after all, only saints might be perfect, and a saint will not sell in a humanly literary work... anyway, normally...

Spoiler for F/SN heaven feel (last route) heavy spoiler:

Of course, when I was watching Fate/Stay Night, I expected Sakura to be the final boss or something like that... which did not happen in the TV, but.. well, I was right after all... after I read the original visual novel....

[HayashiTakara]

Ok... this is basically how the show failed so far, I'll use a simple story example.

"This show is about Bucky the rabbit and his desire to eat the carrot. ok, throughout the story bucky is solely concentrated on the carrot, even with all evil obstacles in his way, he only wants the carrot. But, at the very end, he decides to become a travelling musician in a punk band group. The clue pointing to this ending was there was a record album sitting in the background in one of the scenes. It was never mentioned verbally only glanced at for a quick second."

[DanielSong39]

I could only roll my eyes at the latest ridiculous "plot twist"... I pretty much expected the writers to assassinate Asami's character, but the way they did it was nothing short of incompetent. I've seen it done better, and in more compelling fashion in other shows - the first thought that popped into my mind was "like I care".

You might want to check out shows like D.C. ~ Da Capo, Canvas 2, and Gift ~ Eternal Rainbow if you're in the mood for a good twist. KGNE is another good example, though I personally despised the show.

And often shows can work quite well without a twist... To Heart and Lamune come to mind almost immediately. A well-executed twist is worked into the core of the show, instead of serving as a crutch and/or a cry for attention.

P.S. We may have this discussion again next week after they assassinate Aoi's character.

[HayashiTakara]

Most of Asami's screen time was with Sana, not Shuri, and the only hint it gave was her shock in seeing Shuri crying... ok, if you were to see your friend crying, I mean in a really sad way, wouldn't you be shocked and concerned too? if not, you're a heartless bastard! That was the only clue they gave. How is anyone gonna say, "yup shes gay" just from that? unless like one of the posters say "a yuri enthusiast that marks everything as a clue for yuri" well something like that.

[changeup]

If Asami's story IS the WHOLE story of this series, I totally agree with your assessment.

However, you analog does not work here. As many people mentioned and stressed, Asami was mainly a plot device. It is still true after episode 11. The purpose of the story is not to develop Asami's character, but use her as a device to move the plot. Even she suddenly turns out to be exactly the opposite of what she appeared to be, that did not make her the major character of the story or her story the main story.

Asami is still a flat character after the confession, just her real identity was revealed. The purpose of Asami's story is to push the twins into elope, and she did that. We might not hear about her again for the rest of the series...

From this perspective, I think Asami's story is a very good one, surprising but convincing, and it wraps up a lot of things during this process, very economic way of story writing. Most of you guys' critics, from my point of view, were levied towards the wrong direction.

The main plot of the story, the stories about Sana and Nanaka, I do not think any of you guys here will say they do not have enough hints/foreshadowings, although we still are not sure what they are leading to.

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

Ok... this is basically how the show failed so far, I'll use a simple story example.

"This show is about Bucky the rabbit and his desire to eat the carrot. ok, throughout the story bucky is solely concentrated on the carrot, even with all evil obstacles in his way, he only wants the carrot. But, at the very end, he decides to become a travelling musician in a punk band group. The clue pointing to this ending was there was a record album sitting in the background in one of the scenes. It was never mentioned verbally only glanced at for a quick second."