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Old 2008-11-22, 23:36   Link #1381
Peanutbutter
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Spoiler for Ep 9:


As usual, for those who haven't played the game, please do comment and share your thoughts. Cause I had, the revelations doesn't surprise me anymore. But I'm curious to know what others think.
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Old 2008-11-22, 23:38   Link #1382
SkoolRumble4Ya
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Damn that was a twist to me when they reveal Luke is a replica of Asche but I wonder why Asche hasn't done anything to Van yet.
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Old 2008-11-23, 00:21   Link #1383
ThoHell
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Originally Posted by Nvenya View Post
The greater the tragedy, the greater his denial. Like I said before, no one wants to accept that they are partly responsible for killing so many people, being a replica and being betrayed by the person you trust the most in the world. Especially when he thought he was going to be a hero and save everyone.

Let's also not forget the trope, poor communication kills, that someone mentioned before being a big part of the problem. Luke was a self-centered brat who was brought to a place he shouldn't have been by a man hell-bent on destroying Akzeriuth for reasons yet unknown.

I remember playing the game and expecting everyone to be surprised, confused and hating on Van. Certainly I knew that Luke wouldn't come away clean from that, but I didn't expect the full-on blame that he received. Let us not forget that the villain is Van, not Luke.
Almost done DLING ep 09 now. Lets see if Luke will grow some.

Oh don't forget, Luke is almost an Adult (most of the people his age and younger have more common sense and maturity than him). It just seems like you're view Luke as a toddler, but he is far from it. There is no excuse for killing so many people, it's murder and in the U.S. that's jail time or death row. His master aimed the gun but he pulled the trigger without questioning when so many were questioning his teacher's actions. ARG, I can't go on anymore about ep 8, it's the past, time to watch ep 9!

Ok just watched 9


Spoiler for Ep 9:

Last edited by ThoHell; 2008-11-23 at 00:56.
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Old 2008-11-23, 02:00   Link #1384
Sylphic
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Man.. Luke is so darn lame. Living a sheltered life might make you naive and some what dimwitted, but it certainly doesn't make you a complete jerk. The sheltered life is not exactly an excuse for his appalling behavior.

You'd think that at least he'd have the decency to feel regret or remorse for anything instead of blaming it on something else and expecting people to believe him.

Well... can Asch just kill Luke now and replace him as the main character? I'd like that
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Old 2008-11-23, 02:11   Link #1385
Peanutbutter
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Originally Posted by ThoHell View Post
Ok just watched 9

Spoiler for Ep 9:
Well, Guy is just a short form of his name, just like Tear's actually Mystearica.
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Old 2008-11-23, 02:37   Link #1386
aroduc
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They really did pretty much completely overhaul Asch from the game.

Spoiler:
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Old 2008-11-23, 03:57   Link #1387
Socko
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It's pretty cool to see an anime stay so true to the original game. I still think that Tales of the Abyss didn't have a great plot. I think toward the half it has some really bad pacing and it just got boring as hell.
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Old 2008-11-23, 04:38   Link #1388
yolin.shana
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They changed Asch too much =S
He's supposed to be the biggest jerk ever, why is he so nice all of a sudden?
Where's the Asch I love? ;_;
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Old 2008-11-23, 08:25   Link #1389
ravebeing
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Originally Posted by ThoHell View Post
Almost done DLING ep 09 now. Lets see if Luke will grow some.

Oh don't forget, Luke is almost an Adult (most of the people his age and younger have more common sense and maturity than him). It just seems like you're view Luke as a toddler, but he is far from it. There is no excuse for killing so many people, it's murder and in the U.S. that's jail time or death row. His master aimed the gun but he pulled the trigger without questioning when so many were questioning his teacher's actions. ARG, I can't go on anymore about ep 8, it's the past, time to watch ep 9!
Actually, Luke is 7 years old.

Last edited by ravebeing; 2008-11-23 at 15:08. Reason: wrong word
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Old 2008-11-23, 15:01   Link #1390
demon_god04
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It is not really technically either. Luke was born 7 years ago, ergo he is 7 years old. There is no ifs and or buts. Luke was someone that had the maturity of a little boy and was forced into a role that he was not prepared to fill.


Quote:
Originally Posted by yolin.shana View Post
They changed Asch too much =S
He's supposed to be the biggest jerk ever, why is he so nice all of a sudden?
Where's the Asch I love? ;_;
I wonder what was the reason for the change, because there is a reason why he is such a huge jerk even to Natalia.
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Old 2008-11-23, 16:07   Link #1391
kujoe
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Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
It is not really technically either. Luke was born 7 years ago, ergo he is 7 years old. There is no ifs and or buts. Luke was someone that had the maturity of a little boy and was forced into a role that he was not prepared to fill.
It's not as simple as that. He is indeed seven years old, but as a replica he's treated as he's supposed to look and act. Despite his spoiled brat persona, the guy certainly has a mindset that isn't of that age. At the very least, he matures quite fast to his intended, replicated age.

A replica who looks and thinks like an old man born two years ago would be treated as an old man, and not as a kid. Minus whatever prejudiced views of course.


As for Asch's improvement, I admit it's kind of amusing to see him "improved". I guess the anime staff figured that it's enough that Luke played the jerk for a while. In the game, Asch's personality can be pretty one dimensional. In other words, he's just angry and acts like a douche to everyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by serenade_beta View Post
Spoiler for ep9:
Spoiler for episode 9:

Last edited by kujoe; 2008-11-23 at 17:27.
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Old 2008-11-23, 16:27   Link #1392
demon_god04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kujoe View Post
It's not as simple as that. He is indeed seven years old, but as a replica he's treated as he's supposed to look and act. Despite his spoiled brat persona, the guy certainly has a mindset that isn't of that age. At the very least, he matures quite fast to his intended, replicated age.

A replica who looks and thinks like an old man born two years ago would be treated as an old man, and not as a kid. Minus whatever prejudiced view of course.


As for Asch's improvement, I admit it's kind of amusing to see him improved. I guess the anime staff figured that it's enough that Luke played the jerk for a while. In the game, Asch's personality can be pretty one dimensional. In other words, he's just angry and acts like a douche to everyone.
I'd agree with you if he had Asche's memories and experiences. But he did not. He was a blank slate when he returned and they had to reteach him everything. His accumulated age and experiences amounted to no more then seven years. The point is that he was not as mature as his intended age was supposed to be and people expected him to be.

Luke was not a replica made to look and think like a ten year old Asche, he was just made to look like Asche while the mind was still blank like that of a child's.

It only seems one dimensional if you look at the events separately but once you know the reason and the misinterpretation of information on his part, you realize why he did those things and why he was such a douche especially to Natalia and Luke. And really he fluctuates alot in the game so you can not really call it one dimensional.
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Old 2008-11-23, 16:46   Link #1393
kujoe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
I'd agree with you if he had Asche's memories and experiences. But he did not. He was a blank slate when he returned and they had to reteach him everything. His accumulated age and experiences amounted to no more then seven years. The point is that he was not as mature as his intended age was supposed to be and people expected him to be.
Which is why I mentioned, that as a replica the concept of maturity is different. I'd hate to give another example as that would be considered as game spoilers, but I think you know what I would be talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by demongod_04
Luke was not a replica made to look and think like a ten year old Asche, he was just made to look like Asche while the mind was still blank like that of a child's.
Spoiler for replicas:

Quote:
Originally Posted by demongod_04
It only seems one dimensional if you look at the events separately but once you know the reason and the misinterpretation of information on his part, you realize why he did those things and why he was such a douche especially to Natalia and Luke. And really he fluctuates alot in the game so you can not really call it one dimensional.
Oh yes, certainly it's not that hard to see the reasons behind such an attitude. But just as I can't excuse Luke despite his background, I throw the same standards on Asch.

At this point, it seems that we'll get some character "improvements" in the coming episodes.

Last edited by kujoe; 2008-11-23 at 17:01.
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Old 2008-11-23, 17:00   Link #1394
demon_god04
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Originally Posted by kujoe View Post
Which is why I mentioned, that as a replica the concept of maturity is different. I'd hate to give another example as that would be considered as game spoilers, but I think you know what I would be talking about.

Spoiler for replica:


Oh yes, certainly it's not that hard to see the reasons behind such an attitude. But just as I can't excuse Luke despite his background, I throw the same standards on Asch. Like I said, he can act as such, and he does. A lot.

At this point, it seems that we'll get some character "improvements" in the coming episodes.
Spoiler for replica spoilers:


I am not questioning your standards of viewing his attitude, only the assertion that it was one dimensional. Which as I attempted to explain without going into much detail, that he was not angry for no reason but rather there were complicated reasons behind it.
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Old 2008-11-23, 17:09   Link #1395
kujoe
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Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
Spoiler for replica spoilers:
When you say that, I'm not even sure if you were thinking the same thing as I did.

But the thing with a replica like Luke (and my point) is, that from a blank state he can mature to his intended age. My point is, it's not that simple to refer to him as a mere "kid" simply because he was born a few years ago or so. It's not as clear cut as that, and the standard is different. After the fall of Akzeriuth, Luke has really no choice but to grow up and face the consequences of his actions.

If we were to apply a human standard of maturity, then Tear would be a shotacon in the making.

Quote:
Originally Posted by demongod_04
I am not questioning your standards of viewing his attitude, only the assertion that it was one dimensional. Which as I attempted to explain without going into much detail, that he was not angry for no reason but rather there were complicated reasons behind it.
I was referring to his attitude. Obviously, the backstory is there but it doesn't really change the way he has been portrayed.
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Old 2008-11-23, 17:23   Link #1396
demon_god04
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Originally Posted by kujoe View Post
When you say that, I'm not even sure if you were thinking the same thing as I did.

But the thing with replicas is, from a blank state they can mature to their intended age. My point is, it's not that simple to refer to them as mere "kids" simply because they were born a few years ago or so. The standard is different. After the fall of Akzeriuth, Luke has really no choice but to grow up and face the consequences of his actions.

If we were to apply a human standard of maturity, then Tear would be a shotacon in the making.


I was referring to his attitude. Obviously, the backstory is there but it doesn't really change the way he has been portrayed.
Yes they can but the question is that did Luke mature to his intended age. Given that they basically forced a sheltered life upon him and denied him the experiences that would nurture his maturity I would have to say that he had not been given the chance to mature to his intended age. I am not denying that Akzeriuth was the kick in the ass he needed to mature, the point is that before that he was not given the opportunity nor was it necessary for him to.

Physically Luke is older but mentally he is not, but Akzeriuth is what he needed to attain that maturity. Guy mentions in the game that he views Luke as being only seven years old.

Well if you understand the back story then you can also understand the contradictions behind a lot of his actions. He is a jerk to everyone, but looking at it he is not doing so for the sake of being an asshole and there are times when his actions contradict his jerkish exterior because of the emotions of the situation he is going through. That and the fact that he does develop and change, by definition means he is not one dimensional.
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Old 2008-11-23, 17:37   Link #1397
kujoe
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Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
Yes they can but the question is that did Luke mature to his intended age. Given that they basically forced a sheltered life upon him and denied him the experiences that would nurture his maturity I would have to say that he had not been given the chance to mature to his intended age.
And that's the error there. People were treating him as the seventeen year old Luke fon Fabre despite his situation. And in many ways, he should've acted the age he was supposed to be, and he does try albeit with not so good results. The King even gives him the task of going to Akzeriuth as the Score has dictated. While the reasons have been kept away from him, that is not something a seven year old child is meant to be responsible for. They weren't exactly treating him like a child here, but as a spoiled young master with special circumstances.

Guy of course, has been there to help take care of the young Luke, so his views are more brotherly in that sense.

All in all, just labeling him a kid is quite problematic when the people around him are also in conflict in treating him as a person.

Quote:
Well if you understand the back story then you can also understand the contradictions behind a lot of his actions. He is a jerk to everyone, but looking at it he is not doing so for the sake of being an asshole and there are times when his actions contradict his jerkish exterior because of the emotions of the situation he is going through. That and the fact that he does develop and change, by definition means he is not one dimensional.
Just as Luke has a negative side to his previous attitude, Asch has a negative side to him as well. It's not as easy to be apologetic for his character since he pretty much knows a lot of what's going on.
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Old 2008-11-23, 21:59   Link #1398
demon_god04
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Originally Posted by kujoe View Post
And that's the error there. People were treating him as the seventeen year old Luke fon Fabre despite his situation. And in many ways, he should've acted the age he was supposed to be, and he does try albeit with not so good results. The King even gives him the task of going to Akzeriuth as the Score has dictated. While the reasons have been kept away from him, that is not something a seven year old child is meant to be responsible for. They weren't exactly treating him like a child here, but as a spoiled young master with special circumstances.

Guy of course, has been there to help take care of the young Luke, so his views are more brotherly in that sense.

All in all, just labeling him a kid is quite problematic when the people around him are also in conflict in treating him as a person.


Just as Luke has a negative side to his previous attitude, Asch has a negative side to him as well. It's not as easy to be apologetic for his character since he pretty much knows a lot of what's going on.
Just because you treat someone as a seventeen year old does not necessarily mean they will automatically gain the experience and knowledge gained from actually living for seventeen years. It is usually a gradual process, with Luke they just attempted to regain what was lost. I am not saying that it is impossible for someone to mature faster then others, but in Luke's case they were essentially only teaching him what he needed to get by rather then actually helping his growth as a person. As a result, and Luke is at fault as well, his knowledge has alot of holes in it and as I said, since he was locked in the mansion he did not gain the life experience needed for maturity. Think of the environment he grew up in where he was essentially the prince of is own little kingdom where his basic needs were provided for and he did not have to look after himself.

And I believe that you who have played the game would know that even if Luke looked and was five years old they still would have sent him to Akzeriuth if the score dictated as much. It was not about trusting Luke to handle the responsibility of his job. It is more that they were so used to adhering to the score that they let it dictate their actions. No body is saying that they were treating Luke as a child but that it was what Luke was acting like and that it is because essentially he is a child.

And I think you are misunderstanding, it is not about labeling him as "just a kid" but understanding that he essentially had the mental maturity of a child that lived an extremely sheltered life and was shoved into a role he was not prepared to fill. It is not a free pass for the crap he has said and did but more about understanding the how and why.

Once again, I am not arguing that Asche does not have a negative side because he did. Just that I disagreed with your assessment that it was one dimensional. I am not even trying to get you to like him or anything, just clarifying that his character had depth.
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Old 2008-11-23, 23:32   Link #1399
relentlessflame
 
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If you ask me (based on what I've seen so far, anyway -- I haven't played the game and don't want to know...), I think the real issue is that "nobody" realized (until recently) that Luke wasn't the same Luke they all knew. Because they thought that deep down it was the "same old Luke", they imagined that his personality would return to his old self once he regained his lost time. Even though he's a replica, he isn't the same "Luke". That combined with the lies he was being fed by Van combined to form his impression of the world -- that nobody understands who he really is (because they were trying to bring back the old Luke that he was not) except for Van (who kept telling him that he was important for who he is and what he could do). So whether his "age" was 7 or 17 isn't the real issue, I don't think. He was trapped living a life that wasn't his, and in that lie the only thing that appealed to him was having his ego fed (because it was the only thing he knew of "himself"). Basically, he was being manipulated in many ways, I think.

That's not to excuse his attitude or his clouded judgment, but I would say that he should be pitied rather than hated. He definitely needed the wake-up call, even if it came at a huge price. Now that he doesn't have to act under the pretense of regaining an identity that was never his to begin with, and that he's no longer being fed lies designed only to manipulate his ego, he can actually discover who he really is. I guess that'll be the point of the rest of the show, more or less.

Anyway, I think it's interesting because, although Luke was definitely setting himself up to be hated in many ways, I guess you could say that it's sort of like The Score in that there's a certain thread of fate that binds his actions together and cause them to make sense in context. I suppose that's what's called the story.
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Old 2008-11-24, 00:00   Link #1400
kujoe
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Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
And I think you are misunderstanding, it is not about labeling him as "just a kid" but understanding that he essentially had the mental maturity of a child that lived an extremely sheltered life and was shoved into a role he was not prepared to fill. It is not a free pass for the crap he has said and did but more about understanding the how and why.
Nope, not at all. I do know that he has lacked a mature sense of self due to his upbringing, and my comments were a response to the mere statement that he's just seven, as if that's supposed to explain his lack of maturity. In other words I'm talking about how others have usually associated this with his actual age, when the very number is illusory or relative to other factors.

Perhaps there's some unintended misunderstanding from my previous posts. What I mean is, it's not because he is seven. It's because he's a replica who hasn't matured as intended. Citing mere age as a reason with regard to replicas cannot apply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by demongod_04
Once again, I am not arguing that Asche does not have a negative side because he did. Just that I disagreed with your assessment that it was one dimensional. I am not even trying to get you to like him or anything, just clarifying that his character had depth.
Hey, I like tsundere characters too, but even I can realize when the portrayal ends up being too bi-polar. For me Asch is like that somewhat, hence why I said it's rather one dimensional.
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