World of Tanks

[LeoXiao]

It's not overpowered, it's just annoying alone and dangerous in groups, as all Soviet and Chinese mediums tend to be. It's a good support/brawling tank is what, oh and it lets you play t8 without worrying about tier 10 or running out of silver.

[Achiuakuna]

On an unrelated note, am I the only person who thinks "overpowered" means "extremely forgiving despite player levels"?

In my definition a lot of tanks are overpowered, but when I say that, people assume that I have trouble killing them because they think "overpowered" means "unkillable". The knee-jerk response they all have is "lol you're' a noob just need to learn where to shoot". Yeah, I TOTALLY HAVE NO IDEA how to kill an IS-6 when I already have almost 8000 battles. Thank you so much for telling me.
Why do people always do that? This happens on the wot forum and in game all the time. To them, it's like a tank is only OP when nothing can kill them ever. I think this is a silly definition of what overpowered is. If we go by that, no tank in the game is OP.

[Myssa Rei]

Originally Posted by TheFluff

the type 59 is just fucking overpowered, there's a reason it was removed from the store

What, no. It's less a threat now than when it first came out (lot of stealth nerfs, particularly to the gun and its soft stats), and I've had the privilege of taking one out with my Comet.

I'd like to have one, but that's the collector in me talking.

[Gravitas Free Zone]

In my records there are two Type 59 kills credited to my Easy Eight. Don't remember the circumstances, but there they are.

There's also a Type 59 kill credited to my AT 8, which happened recently enough for me to say that it was a result of the Type ignoring me to shoot at some other allied heavy nearby... forgetting that the AT 8 can fire at over fifteen rounds per minute and can easily penetrate the Type's side.

[Achiuakuna]

OMG OMG OMG I actually have a real computer now. Now I can play with high settings without lagging. I did not even know that guns have smoke coming out of them when they fire!

[Quox]

I have to say the Type 59's likely the only tank I hold with abject loathing as it always appeared to be a little too proficient in armour, firepower and mobility despite its pref mm.... [Barring a certain bright WOT forum neg-rep farmer who's Type 59 charged my team's cap and ended up losing an uninterrupted brawl to a t1 heavy and my old tier 5 Amx 12t.]

Then again, this opinion is heavily tinted by the old MM (where a tier 6 heavy tank such as my unplatooned m6 could be placed in matches with is-7s...)and the sheer glut of type 59s back in the day.



*Yes, that was a stock T-34 operating under the biases mentioned above.

Originally Posted by Achiuakuna

On an unrelated note, am I the only person who thinks "overpowered" means "extremely forgiving despite player levels"?

I'd agree with that definiton, so you aren't alone.

[TheFluff]

it has the highest win rate of any tier 8 medium and is also one of the most played tier 8 mediums (well, among noobmeter users) despite being a currently unavailable premium tank
by the way, on top of everything else it does really well, did you know it has really good camo for a medium?

the defense rests, your honor

[Gravitas Free Zone]

This mission was notable for my (and a couple others) screaming at the start about our heavies' plan to abandon the hill and travel through the valley. This forced several pit spawners, including myself, to drive back up the hill (the Cromwell and I flanked from the SE end of town).

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Fortunately the other team was abjectly horrible.

Also, this happened:

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GIFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

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If only I'd had more alpha, I would've splashed it in midair. But note what does kill it, and how lucky that was.

[Mow Yun]

Originally Posted by Kimidori

>2000 games
>1000 WN7

that not bad at all, better than most of us here when we were at that number of games.

When I had 2000 battles I was still running suicide scout on my VK1602 Leopard every match for another prolly 300 matches, you're fine XD

[Ascaloth]

I don't always Type.

But when I do, I Type 59.

[LeoXiao]

Playing my brother's Type 59 has made me really want to get a T-54 or similar vehicle. Too bad I still have about 200k to the WZ-120...

[Achiuakuna]

Might be quicker if you just got the T-44 and T-54. The end tier Chinese mediums' xp requirements are insane.

[LeoXiao]

Eh, there's not much sense in grinding the T-54 since I'm already halfway through the WZ-132. I'll just stay the course for now.

Also, last night's battles got me thinking about the flanking vs. direct engagement aspect again, and I believe you said something to the effect of "lol why does everyone want to be the flanker?" My response to this would be that as long as you have a good force, everyone can and should be a flanker, especially at higher tiers where armour matters less. The Soviet/Chinese mediums and to a certain extent their heavies are all like this. At tiers 8+, the ideal thing for a team to do is to get all its T-55 and IS variant tanks together, choose an axis of attack, and have everyone else support it while the breakthrough tanks never stop. The idea is actually very similar to the "suicidal" charges that Sumeragi has made herself famous for, just that this kind of thing can be difficult to get pubbies to do. I've seen 3x T-54 squadrons get horribly betrayed by the idiot team and be the first to die, but they have the right method in mind.

Mobility > Firepower > Armor OR Can your tank get around? Splendid. Can your tank destroy what it gets behind speedily? Good. Can your fast tank bounce some shots while it's rushing an enemy? Trololol
We see that this is the general idea that Soviet tanks are built on and that this idea is almost always the best because it makes a point of giving YOU the initiative and thus the choice of what is going on at the strategic level of battle.

tl;dr = Sumeragi should get Soviet mediums, they fit her playstyle.

[Achiuakuna]

I didn't say that. Sahin did. Anyway, I'm sure he wouldn't pass up an opportunity to flank if he can. What he meant was that one should not force it. People who claim to flank in this game are mostly doing it because it looks cool. The "flanking" he was referring to was suicidal charges of a single medium tank, shooting once at the enemy before they turn back and vaporize him in one second.

Also, all that initiative stuff should be reserved for organized battles like clan wars. There is simply not enough payoff to go out in 3 T-54s only to be "betrayed" by the pubs, because they owe you nothing to begin with. Pubs is everyone for himself. And that is why the medium tanks' advantages aren't often utilized. And that is why games nowadays are composed 70% of TDs because they can just sit on a hill and whack-a-mole. Sure, they don't get the exciting moments, but it gives you a steady payoff of satisfaction in the long run.

[LeoXiao]

I think that even the pubs can be agitated and riled into action if you make your intentions clear enough, or if the platoon picks its axis well. Not everyone is a self-serving noob, there will generally be some decent players willing to help a sensible advance. If [-G-] is in T-54s and says "hey we're gonna blitz them over there", "you can be sure that I'm going to move my 268 "over there" to help them. Unfortunately, many elite platoons tend to not communicate anything to their teams, relying on their own sense of who they can temporarily make use of to win, and it doesn't always work. That results in the previously-mentioned "betrayal". It is a failure at the strategic level.

The TDs may end up doing the damage (and yeah some of them should receive moderate nerfs), but it's that T-54 platoon that makes the critical advance which allows the damage to happen in the first place.

[Achiuakuna]

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

I think that even the pubs can be agitated and riled into action if you make your intentions clear enough, or if the platoon picks its axis well. Not everyone is a self-serving noob, there will generally be some decent players willing to help a sensible advance.

The TDs may end up doing the damage (and yeah some of them should receive moderate nerfs), but it's that T-54 platoon that makes the critical advance which allows the damage to happen in the first place.

Again, it's comes down to consistency. Not everyone is a self-serving noob, just like how not everyone who jumps off a building dies. Most of the time people still think their ideas are the best and they don't listen. The good moments are exhilarating, but I'm pretty sure by now people are settled down and prefer to play in low-risk low-payoff mode. Before the arty nerfs, it was arty. And now, it's the TDs. Because imo it's the two most selfish vehicle classes and despite the occasional sparkly moments, pubs is still a selfish format(even the non-selfish ones will be negatively reinforced to become selfish the more he plays alone).

Yes, except after they removed the negative TD xp modifier they actually get a LOT of xp for killing things they don't spot. Sure, some of us(including me) still play mediums because we enjoy helping others, but for an average person, who would you rather be: someone who sacrifices himself to spot for the TDs so that the TDs can get top xp, pad their stats and call you a noob, or be the TD himself? If the system recognize and encourage your playstyle, you will play more. If not, you will switch to another playstyle. The rewards have a lot to do with the pub behaviors.

[Tempester]

Interesting discussion. I coincidentally happened to play the AMX 13 90 a lot today, which is pretty much a polar opposite of how I've typically been playing lately (i.e. sitting back in TDs).

My experience with TDs has definitely influenced my playstyle with lights/mediums, for better or worse. I spend a lot of time in my 13 90 sniping, especially at the start of a match. I am very very wary of my HP, and I curse myself every time I receive damage. I am a very selfish player, and I value my own HP over everyone else's except the occasional unicum players on my team. Thus, I'm extremely cowardly and reluctant to scout many areas where I fear I could run into a tier 10 enemy medium, particularly those firing lanes I'm used to sniping down with my TDs. Oh, I still do die a lot, but generally not 2 minutes into a match like I used to in my noob days when I YOLO'd everywhere in my T-50 without a care in the world.

I hate playing the 13 90, it's killing my WN7, and I'm sure it'll give me many moments where I rage-quit and exit the game, but I'm determined to make it work for me, and eventually transpose the skill I learn from it to the BatChat.

[LeoXiao]

Originally Posted by Achiuakuna

Again, it's comes down to consistency. Not everyone is a self-serving noob, just like how not everyone who jumps off a building dies. Most of the time people still think their ideas are the best and they don't listen. The good moments are exhilarating, but I'm pretty sure by now people are settled down and prefer to play in low-risk low-payoff mode. Before the arty nerfs, it was arty. And now, it's the TDs. Because imo it's the two most selfish vehicle classes and despite the occasional sparkly moments, pubs is still a selfish format(even the non-selfish ones will be negatively reinforced to become selfish the more he plays alone).

I don't know enough about what unciums do, but when they platoon mediums I don't think their successes are so few as to warrant the "sparkly moment" (i.e. "rare") descriptor. I'd take 3 uncium T-62s and 2 50% t9 TDs over 5 TDs of which three t10s are average players.

Anyway, it's not like the unciums win the battles by themselves This is what green players often try to do and fail at. The unciums, whether they communicate or not with the pubs, have incredible awarenessas to what not only the enemy is doing, but their own team's actions as well, noobs included.

Yes, except after they removed the negative TD xp modifier they actually get a LOT of xp for killing things they don't spot. Sure, some of us(including me) still play mediums because we enjoy helping others, but for an average person, who would you rather be: someone who sacrifices himself to spot for the TDs so that the TDs can get top xp, pad their stats and call you a noob, or be the TD himself? If the system recognize and encourage your playstyle, you will play more. If not, you will switch to another playstyle. The rewards have a lot to do with the pub behaviors.

Frankly, I prefer to play mediums and generally mobile tanks (as you may have noticed) over TDs, and I'd hardly say this is because I just looove helping my teams out. It isn't just me, I think, who doesn't play primarily TDs despite their being vaguely OP. I looked up about ten players from the clan [-G-], or more specifically, their records since about August, by which time the changes brought about by 8.6 should've had their effects. The Foch and to a lesser extent some other annoying TD like the E3/E4 tend to appear in their "top 5 most played" inventory, but this is usually overshadowed by autoloading tanks like the BatChat, T57 Heavy, or T-54. In about half of the cases, the T-54 was in fact their most-played 8+ tank. In no case was a TD the most played tank.

[Achiuakuna]

That's a no brainer. I'd appreciate it if I have an unicum on my team in ANY tank. Of course excessive player ability would negate the shortcomings of certain tanks, but why compare the best player in the worst tank to the worst player in the best tank? When talking about pubs' tanks of choice it's best to control your variables and keep the player level consistently at sub-yellow.

T-54 is not a traditional medium. Medium tanks should be undergunned and always lose to heavies in a popout match due to low armor, low hp and worse gun. Having 350 pen AND the speed of a medium tank means you have the option to face heavy armors head on without having to park for an hour waiting for the reticle to zoom in on a weakspot or risking your life trying to flank. This makes all the difference because quick peekaboos become totally viable. Not to mention when you have 3 of them popping in and out alternating, there is simply no solution for that. In that case, even though technically the game UI still calls you a "medium", your platoon is completely capable of holding your own, negating the frustration of your help to the team going to waste or the over-dependence on the team.

And I never said TDs were the most played tank ever. It just happens that pubs in general are favoring TDs over other classes for obvious reasons. Just picking some unicums from G doesn't represent the playerbase. Also, keep in mind that things like BatChat can be a clan war staple. It might not apply to the pub discussion.

If you look at me, being the sample size of 1, I played very few games in TDs since August too, but I'm just me.

[LeoXiao]

Originally Posted by Achiuakuna

but why compare the best player in the worst tank to the worst player in the best tank? When talking about pubs' tanks of choice it's best to control your variables and keep the player level consistently at sub-yellow.

Point conceded. I just wanted to demonstrate that it's the player more than the tank that determines the victory, but you're aware of that.

T-54 is not a traditional medium. Medium tanks should be undergunned and always lose to heavies in a popout match due to low armor, low hp and worse gun. Having 350 pen AND the speed of a medium tank means you have the option to face heavy armors head on without having to park for an hour waiting for the reticle to zoom in on a weakspot or risking your life trying to flank. This makes all the difference because quick peekaboos become totally viable. Not to mention when you have 3 of them popping in and out alternating, there is simply no solution for that. In that case, even though technically the game UI still calls you a "medium", your platoon is completely capable of holding your own, negating the frustration of your help to the team going to waste or the over-dependence on the team.

The top-tier "medium tanks" are no longer considered such IRL precisely because of all these advantages you just mentioned. Instead, they are called "main battle tanks" since they do everything that is needed whereas in WW2 military planners found the need to have both mediums and heavies. The T-54 is simply the first of such MBTs and you saw the IS designers try to sell their machines to the Soviet military as increasingly mobile weapons before finally they were determined inferior to their smaller rivals.

This also completely agrees with the view I expressed earlier that "everyone flanking" is actually a good thing. I also think that it applies to any fast medium, like the Leopard 1, and not just Soviets. In fact there has been lots of discussion IIRC about how medium tanks are OP and need to be counteracted by TD buffs... (I don't agree with that view)

And I never said TDs were the most played tank ever. It just happens that pubs in general are favoring TDs over other classes for obvious reasons. Just picking some unicums from G doesn't represent the playerbase. Also, keep in mind that things like BatChat can be a clan war staple. It might not apply to the pub discussion.

You mention that we should look at the general quality of players rather than the unciums. It is true that the average player is currently encouraged by all variety of dangers to camp rather than execute an attacking maneuver, but how much should WG pander to the average? I mean, you can say "let's nerf TDs to encourage attacking", but that would also encourage people to yolo (as they often do) which is just as bad if not worse than encouraging them to camp.

It's a very tricky matter. If a scout could just rush out at the start of the round, light up a bunch of paper-clad TDs, and have them all be sniped by Germans, that would be no good. The accuracy buff was a huge mistake and IMO removing it alone might solve the TD question. What I would certainly oppose is drastically nerfing the armor or camo from TDs, or denying them high alpha. Only moderate nerfs are in order.

If you look at me, being the sample size of 1, I played very few games in TDs since August too, but I'm just me.

Maybe I'll have a look at some average clans and see what they're into.