(L) Cross Game

[joeboygo]

Originally Posted by apropervillain

I think it had the opposite effect. The pitch was so fast that it froze Mishima at the plate and because he didn't swing, considering his reputation as a hitter, the umpire instinctively called it a ball.

You can read it that way. But it wouldn't be consistent with what Mishima's coach said about him.

You can't blame the umpire either because at 160++ mph, YOU CAN'T SEE THE BALL ANYMORE. I can almost see Adachi winking at that one. Simply brilliant.

[Proto]

You can read it that way. But it wouldn't be consistent with what Mishima's coach said about him.

Well, the umpire doesn't know about Mishima's nuances as a person as the coach would. He just knows that he's a good batter, possibly with better eyes than him, so if he didn't swing it must have been for a good reason, possibly because it was a ball. I'd guess that was the umpire line of reasoning.

[Sassarai]

Originally Posted by joeboygo

If it's a close call it usually goes against Mishima, because of his reputation. Remember earlier in the game, Azuma swung at a deliberate walk attempt and gave his team a run. If you're a good hitter the umpire's aren't going to take such good care of you.

But look at the picture. Adachi took the trouble of letting you know where the catcher's feet and mitt were. This was not even close. And Mishima knew it.

I think good hitters are the ones that usually get the benefit of doubt. Just like in real life, star players usually get the calls. Mishima probably got the call because he's a star player.

The pitch looks like it could be called both ways to me. It hit the catcher's target right on so that means it hit the spot that they were aiming for. It might of been just a bit inside but hitters usually don't take close pitches when it's a full count.

Mishima didnt know the pitch was bad, he took it probably because it wasn't a pitch he could hit.

[stpehen]

Yeah, generally a star hitter/pitcher gets preferential treatment which means if it's a full count situation they might have the confidence to let a close pitch slide, trusting the umpire will give them that "benefit of a doubt." Most hitters would attempt to foul off a pitch close to the edges of the strike zone with two strikes because they don't know how the ump will call it and it's too tough for them to hit it solidly. The coach explains that Mishima doesn't rely on the umpire to back him up in those situations but prefers to either swing away or foul it off, so the fact that he didn't meant that he knew he couldn't hit it.

[joeboygo]

OK, my mistake then. I thought the coach's comment reflected how umpires have treated Mishima in the past.

But that pitch wasn't anywhere near foul. It's clearly above his knees and over home plate. And both Azuma and Mishima acted like they knew it afterwards.

[Sassarai]

Originally Posted by joeboygo

OK, my mistake then. I thought the coach's comment reflected how umpires have treated Mishima in the past.

But that pitch wasn't anywhere near foul. It's clearly above his knees and over home plate. And both Azuma and Mishima acted like they knew it afterwards.

You mean near a strike? It depends on the umpires strike zone. It can vary depending on the home plate umpire. The pitch is around belt high which means it's a pretty good pitch to hit. The only problem was that it might of been just a tad inside. Great hitters would never take that close of a pitch but Mishima took it because he probably wasn't confident that he could of hit it.

edit: Just look at the first pitch that was called a strike. The ball was at the same place as the last pitch except on the inside corner. The balls that were called were the ones that were at the catcher's head level or above.

[joeboygo]

Originally Posted by Sassarai

You mean near a strike? It depends on the umpires strike zone. It can vary depending on the home plate umpire. The pitch is around belt high which means it's a pretty good pitch to hit. The only problem was that it might of been just a tad inside. Great hitters would never take that close of a pitch but Mishima took it because he probably wasn't confident that he could of hit it.

That IS the only way it could have been foul. But it hit the mitt between the catcher's neck and his shoulder, and unless Akaishi set up his stance too close towards the batter (in which case the umpire would not have had any hesitation in making the call) there's no way that pitch was inside.

For better visual reference, compare the frontal shot of home plate here:http://www.onemanga.com/Cross_Game/168/03/

with the side shot here: http://www.onemanga.com/Cross_Game/168/13/. Focus on the chalk lines laid on the dirt and see where Akaishi has his feet. From there you can see where he had his glove and where the ball went.

[apropervillain]

Maybe we all should just come to the conclusion that the pitch was just too fast to be judged properly (both by the umpire and radar gun) and to be hit by Mishima.

[Sassarai]

It's confusing when you use the word "foul". It's either a ball or a strike ~_~

[GrimJack]

it was definitely inside if you look at where Akaishi's glove is and the tentativeness of the Umpire's call makes me thing he called it based on the fact that Mishima did not swing, the coach's words confirm that in my mind.

He does not take close pitches on full count thus the umpire called it a ball.

of course as Azuma said it doesn't matter, because he took it, their team lost, he was the only one who had a chance to get a hit off of Koh

[joeboygo]

Originally Posted by Sassarai

It's confusing when you use the word "foul". It's either a ball or a strike ~_~

Oops. My bad. I meant to say ball instead of foul. And you are right that the ump was calling the high pitches balls. But the last one wasn't high. I'll just say it's inside the rulebook strikezone; it may be outside this umpire's strikezone, although I don't know if there's enough detail in the story to figure out the latter.

At any rate, GrimJack is also right in that an inch or two inside when it's that close doesn't make a difference in real terms. Kou gave Mishima a pitch he could have done a lot of damage with if he had swung and hit it. I just want to make clear that in their stare-down, Kou did not back down. It was Mishima who blinked. along those lines GrimJack, isn't the coach telling the other players that Mishima always swings at a close pitch on full count becuase he does not trust umpires to give hime the benefit of the doubt? The implication is that the coach knows Mishima was frozen by the last pitch, and that it was not an intentionally thrown ball, as the other players appeared to think.

[Anh_Minh]

It was a borderline pitch (probably too close), which the umpire eventually ruled a ball. Normally, Mishima swings at those, because he's more confident in his ability to hit bad pitches and get on base than in the umpire declaring it a ball. There, it was just too fast or something.

As for the fact Akaishi caught it - he's supposed to be one of the best catchers of the tournament. I guess he just had good enough reflexes to move his glove and catch the ball anyway.

[FireDetei]

Spoiler for About the pitch:

Well firstly, from the scans I read, during the "confession" scene, Ko asks if he could lie, he never said he was going too.

Secondly about the pitch:- I think the pitch was probably inside, which ment it was a ball. The side on view is an interesting idea, but it still gives away a couple of clues.

The ball was definatly at the right height, it's clearly shown, but if you look at the pitch on the earlier page, which was a strike, the catcher (forgot the name!!) knelt down, but leans across to the right to catch it. His left leg is outstretch and he's down on his right leg...... But for the ball, his left leg isnt draw as if he's leaning across. He's knelt down and his left leg is straight, not leaning..... But Im probs wrong.

But that doesnt stop the fact that Mishima froze on the last pitch

[The Rumblefish]

Spoiler for FireDetei's post above:

Ko asks if he could lie, he never said he was going too.

That's a good point.

I probably do not have the baseball knowledge that many among you have here, but I honestly think you are all wasting time analyzing the panels. The pitch was designed to be ambiguous; we will never know for sure whether it was a strike or a ball. And more importantly, we will (probably) never know for sure whether the pitch reached 160km/h - although we should note it was above 159km/h if Junpei is right that this was the fastest pitch today. I do not think the truth is meant to be uncovered through mitt comparisons; it is meant to remain the reader's (and Aoba's) guess. Without this question mark, next week's chapter would not be half as interesting.

OT: Stephen, a friend of mine working with Shogakukan recently gave me a special booklet offered with Gessan #1, titled "Mitsuru Adachi Essay Comics". It's about 66 pages long and (I believe) entirely made of original Adachi content. Do you guys have that?

[Kunagisa]

Originally Posted by stpehen

Yeah, generally a star hitter/pitcher gets preferential treatment which means if it's a full count situation they might have the confidence to let a close pitch slide, trusting the umpire will give them that "benefit of a doubt." Most hitters would attempt to foul off a pitch close to the edges of the strike zone with two strikes because they don't know how the ump will call it and it's too tough for them to hit it solidly. The coach explains that Mishima doesn't rely on the umpire to back him up in those situations but prefers to either swing away or foul it off, so the fact that he didn't meant that he knew he couldn't hit it.

This made a lot more sense now. Thanks for clearing that up.

Following this line of logic, like others have already mentioned, the fact that Mishima didn't (or couldn't) swing just signed their team's loss, whether Koh's picture made it inside the strike zone doesn't really matter.

[Sassarai]

A 100 mph fastball on the inside corner is pretty much unhittable. So the coaches words pretty much means the pitch frozed him. Mishima probably knew the game would be over as soon as he took the walk anyways so he was going to swing at the pitch if it's anywhere near the strike zone but couldn't.

In real life baseball, that pitch looks like the type that would of been called a strike 7 out of 10 times (random number crunching) unless you're a big time hitter.

[stpehen]

Originally Posted by The Rumblefish

OT: Stephen, a friend of mine working with Shogakukan recently gave me a special booklet offered with Gessan #1, titled "Mitsuru Adachi Essay Comics". It's about 66 pages long and (I believe) entirely made of original Adachi content. Do you guys have that?

Yes, that was released (and scanned) when the first issue of Monthly Sunday came out I believe. I'm sure the group has the files but I have nothing to do with it.

[DragoonKain3]

Wow, that lie was freaking awesome. The way I read it, it could be either he could be lying about any (or even every one) of the three things... or if all three are true, then he would lying about lying.

And man, subtelty hits again. Either that was a miscall by the umpire, or it was at least a foulable ball, but Mishima couldn't see it. Either way, it was Mishima's defeat, not Koh's, since he's the only one in the team who can hit the opposing pitcher. Fouling out ball pitches until he can hit the finisher was supposed to be the plan, but he failed doing even that. As such, even though Mishima was walked and thus won the 'duel' if we go purely by numbers, Adachi heavily implies that he actually lost. Imagine that...

In both cases, it was an extremely unorthodox way to solve the two conflicts. Path less travelled indeed.

As such... Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant! I bow down yet again to Adachi.


Now on to the wedding!

[joeboygo]

Originally Posted by Sassarai

A 100 mph fastball on the inside corner is pretty much unhittable. So the coaches words pretty much means the pitch frozed him. Mishima probably knew the game would be over as soon as he took the walk anyways so he was going to swing at the pitch if it's anywhere near the strike zone but couldn't.

In real life baseball, that pitch looks like the type that would of been called a strike 7 out of 10 times (random number crunching) unless you're a big time hitter.

I think that's about right. You've sold me on it.

We should try and nitpick as much as we can at this point because beyond two weeks from now, there won't be any new Cross Game to talk about.

[SageGaiGar]

The psychological 'victory' over Mishima is the key thing here, almost like a Pyrrhic victory for him to be walked.