[Manga] Chapter 515 Discussion

[7thFonon]

Originally Posted by Hunter

I'm very serious. Your rant about Edo Tensei at least I can understand but throwing into a chapter 515 discussion the Sasuke vs. Deidara fight (which was 3 years ago) out of nowhere? That makes no sense at all to me.
I might add that I wonder why you are wasting your time reading a manga -and worse going into a sub-forum dedicated to said manga- which from your own words you find "absolutely detestable". It seems counter-productive to me.

It's pretty simple. He was using "Sasuke vs Deidara" as another example of how Naruto fights make no sense. And while he backs up his info with legitimate points, the responses are like.... "Where'd this come from??" Some of you guys act like he's talking about some other anime or something random.

And even though I think the planning/writing in Naruto is pretty bad at times (even posted some examples last page), I still find it enjoyable overall. I'm thinking that's a similar reason to why he says it's "detestable" but still reads the manga.

[Jehuty]

Originally Posted by 7thFonon

It's pretty simple. He was using "Sasuke vs Deidara" as another example of how Naruto fights make no sense. And while he backs up his info with legitimate points, the responses are like.... "Where'd this come from??" Some of you guys act like he's talking about some other anime or something random.

And even though I think the planning/writing in Naruto is pretty bad at times (even posted some examples last page), I still find it enjoyable overall. I'm thinking that's a similar reason to why he says it's "detestable" but still reads the manga.

I think that fight did serve a purpose at the time - to illustrate the chakra nature and their differences.

It was a pretty cool fight though, and Sasuke won that fight by the skin of his teeth... or rather, by Manda's skin lol

I think Kishi pretty much either forgot about that direction or altogether dropped it though. It was really cool when he experimented by combining Yamato and Naruto's natures.

[solidguy]

nobodyman9, the troll of shirley

I enjoyed this chapter, it kinda reminds me of the chunnin exams arc during the forest of death. Idk why maybe the squads forming or just the epicness.

I still really want to see the 8th gate beig used in this war cus for me gaara vs. lee has been the most epic fight of the series.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by 7thFonon

It's pretty simple. He was using "Sasuke vs Deidara" as another example of how Naruto fights make no sense. And while he backs up his info with legitimate points, the responses are like.... "Where'd this come from??" Some of you guys act like he's talking about some other anime or something random.

The fights in Naruto had nothing to do with the discussion at hand, it started when Nobodyman9 claimed that :

1. It made no sense for Kabuto to be able to Edo Tensei that many people because it would require too much chakra
2. It made no sense to call back to un-life those presented in this chapter except for the Kage and Jinchuuriki
3. It was bad writting to call back zombie of already known characters instead of introducing new ones

The Deidara vs. Sasuke comment came later as another thing that made no sense to him -even maybe the starting point- after people pointed out to him that he was mistaken about Edo Tensei but no matter how you look into it, this past fight is completely meaningless and irrelevant to the current events unfolding in the story which is why I didn't want to waste my time with this and rather talk about the Edo Tensei issue.
But what the hell, it has already taken over much of of the discussion like everytimes anything Sasuke-related is invoked even when, no, particulary when he has nothing to do with the current chapters. So here are my two cents about it and then I'm done with the subject :

• Chakra
  The entire argument about Sasuke having no chakra reposes and absolutely nothing but Deidara's belief whereas it was the 2nd time Deidara had been wrong about this very subject and whereas Sasuke had shown no sign of exhaustion before he fried his every cells with a Chidori. He was then physically badly hurt, not out of chakra. And had he really been almost out of chakra he still had absorbed Orochimaru's soul and power at the time and had at his disposition the Cursed Seal, a tool specifically designed to allow the creation of chakra through damaging the body.

Hence why claiming Sasuke couldn't possibly have the chakra to summon Manda is baseless and obviously contradicted by the events that followed.

• Time
  The argument about Sasuke not having enough time to do... Well anything really, is also a common misconception of the gutter mechanism. A gutter is the space between two cases in comics, the perception that the explosion happened immediately comes from the assumption that the gutter stood for the split second between the case showcasing Sasuke looking at the shiny bomb yet to explod and the one displaying the actual explosion.

It is also a baseless assumption, there is no known passage of time between those two panels, it could be a single second but it could also be a few, we simply don't know.
The whole thing is a common enough artifice widely used to build suspense : to show the protagonist(s) in front of a bomb or such lethal device, or on the verge to fall from a cliff in their car for example and immediately displaying the catastrophe only to show moments later that the characters actually had a little time to flee or hide inside something or open the door to jump out of the vehicule, etc.
The reason why I agreed that it was badly done is because in those cases you should always show what happened instead of just mentioning it in passing.

So yes I would agree on bad writing there but "worse asspull victories in the history of Shonen manga" and supposedly breaking the rules of the universe whatever these rules are?
Come on, get a grip. Frankly it's probably not even the worse we've seen in this manga alone much less the entire genre and like I said, it's definitively not worth clingling to it years after the fact in a discussion which have nothing to do about it.

And even though I think the planning/writing in Naruto is pretty bad at times (even posted some examples last page), I still find it enjoyable overall. I'm thinking that's a similar reason to why he says it's "detestable" but still reads the manga.

There are plenty of things I dislike in Naruto, some real debacles even. But there is a not so fine difference between this and finding the manga "absolutely detestable".


And yes James this post was really just an excuse to make lists. I love lists so sue me.

[CuXe]

Oh man I can see some serious pwnage in the near future. That twice-unholy- corpse-summoning technique Kabuto is using is too much of a nuke.... I don't care how many people the joint shinobi army has, those unholy-corpeses are just too much of a handful.

I would even dare to say that an army of ninjas is in complete disadvantage against those-unholy corpses, not to even mention the gazillion Zetsus who are waiting their opportunity to crash the party...

I am positively giddy with anticipation!

[james0246]

No spoilers yet, but I started the new thread...

[7thFonon]

Originally Posted by Hunter

The fights in Naruto had nothing to do with the discussion at hand, it started when Nobodyman9 claimed that :

1. It made no sense for Kabuto to be able to Edo Tensei that many people because it would require too much chakra
2. It made no sense to call back to un-life those presented in this chapter except for the Kage and Jinchuuriki
3. It was bad writting to call back zombie of already known characters instead of introducing new ones

The Deidara vs. Sasuke comment came later as another thing that made no sense to him -even maybe the starting point- after people pointed out to him that he was mistaken about Edo Tensei but no matter how you look into it, this past fight is completely meaningless and irrelevant to the current events unfolding in the story which is why I didn't want to waste my time with this and rather talk about the Edo Tensei issue.
But what the hell, it has already taken over much of of the discussion like everytimes anything Sasuke-related is invoked even when, no, particulary when he has nothing to do with the current chapters. So here are my two cents about it and then I'm done with the subject :

• Chakra
  The entire argument about Sasuke having no chakra reposes and absolutely nothing but Deidara's belief whereas it was the 2nd time Deidara had been wrong about this very subject and whereas Sasuke had shown no sign of exhaustion before he fried his every cells with a Chidori. He was then physically badly hurt, not out of chakra. And had he really been almost out of chakra he still had absorbed Orochimaru's soul and power at the time and had at his disposition the Cursed Seal, a tool specifically designed to allow the creation of chakra through damaging the body.

Hence why claiming Sasuke couldn't possibly have the chakra to summon Manda is baseless and obviously contradicted by the events that followed.

• Time
  The argument about Sasuke not having enough time to do... Well anything really, is also a common misconception of the gutter mechanism. A gutter is the space between two cases in comics, the perception that the explosion happened immediately comes from the assumption that the gutter stood for the split second between the case showcasing Sasuke looking at the shiny bomb yet to explod and the one displaying the actual explosion.

It is also a baseless assumption, there is no known passage of time between those two panels, it could be a single second but it could also be a few, we simply don't know.
The whole thing is a common enough artifice widely used to build suspense : to show the protagonist(s) in front of a bomb or such lethal device, or on the verge to fall from a cliff in their car for example and immediately displaying the catastrophe only to show moments later that the characters actually had a little time to flee or hide inside something or open the door to jump out of the vehicule, etc.
The reason why I agreed that it was badly done is because in those cases you should always show what happened instead of just mentioning it in passing.

So yes I would agree on bad writing there but "worse asspull victories in the history of Shonen manga" and supposedly breaking the rules of the universe whatever these rules are?
Come on, get a grip. Frankly it's probably not even the worse we've seen in this manga alone much less the entire genre and like I said, it's definitively not worth clingling to it years after the fact in a discussion which have nothing to do about it.


There are plenty of things I dislike in Naruto, some real debacles even. But there is a not so fine difference between this and finding the manga "absolutely detestable".


And yes James this post was really just an excuse to make lists. I love lists so sue me.

I guess such an old chapter not being of importance is just a matter opinion. I guess I can see why you felt it was unrelated / loosely related to this discussion. I still think the older stuff is important though just to look back on for reference.


Also, thanks for clearing things up for me. I was thinking the discussion was battles in general instead of just relating to chakra.


I know you want to avoid the subject of Deidara vs Sasuke (as you already mentioned), so I’m cool if you ignore this list. Just going on with the conversation for whoever else is interested in talking about the chakra differences… Though I might be done with the convo too… A lot of typing. lol.


-Chidori needles used at the very beginning against Deidara’s scattered bombs
-The Chidori Sword (sorry, I don’t know the name of the technique) that Sasuke used to try to attack Deidara while in the air. Way earlier in the series when Kakashi was training Sasuke, he mentions how taxing Chidori is… Manipulating such a chakra-heavy attack to extend 5 METERS has to take a load of chakra.
-Curse Seal 2 Activation
-A second Chidori Sword which makes contact (remember Chidori takes a lot of Chakra)
-Summoning the small Orochimaru snakes in place of Sasuke’s wings also must have taken some chakra
-Genjutsu attempt on Deidara
-Sasuke then followed up with ANOTHER Chidori into the chest of the Deidara clone.
-Re-activating CS2
-Chidori’ing out of Deidara’s bomb balloon while also using Chidori on himself.
-We later find out that Sasuke had also Charged his Katana with another Chidori to see if lightning diffuses Deidara’s bombs.
-Now re-read chapter 362. Sasuke was standing. As soon as he used his EIGHTH Chidori, he fell to his knees panting. It had nothing to do with Physical fatigue. Sasuke was supposed to be out of chakra. Plain and simple.

I know Sasuke is stronger than Kakashi, yes, but Kakashi is no scrub. There’s no reason that Sasuke should be doing Eight chidori’s (some that even extend as swords) THEN summon Manda.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by 7thFonon

I guess such an old chapter not being of importance is just a matter opinion. I guess I can see why you felt it was unrelated / loosely related to this discussion. I still think the older stuff is important though just to look back on for reference.

It's not just about how old but how related. Bringing what Sasuke has done in a discussion about Sasuke's stamina is logical if you want an element of comparison. Had Sasuke summoned all those Edo Tensei then bringing on some of his old feats may be a good point. But in a chapter where he did nothing but a cameo appearance and had nothing to do with anything then I just fail to see any point to all this.

And while I won't go any further on the subject of this fight, let me tell you that your list of jutsu is far from complete, not by a long shot. And that just in case you didn't notice, Sasuke fought Deidara and Itachi during the same day.
Think about it, remember what made it possible at the time and perhaps you will have the answer to your original question.