Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Wesley84

And older shows had better choreography?

That depends on who you ask. Almost no one would say that Seed or Destiny's choreography was very good, but opnions vary greatly when discussing the other shows. I'm not really an action fan, but I only really liked the combat in Victory Gundam, and to lesser extents, 08th MS Team and Turn A.

Originally Posted by Wesley84

I meant the targetting and range aspects. Except for canceler equipped suits, MSes experience a large drop in their effectiveness at range due to the ECM jamming effects of N-Jammers. I guess it's the excuse used to explain why guided missles aren't used and close combat is feasible in CE.

I don't think that the range of the Neutron Jammer cancellor is large enough to do that. The ECM effect only affects radar, so other systems should be usable for long range accuracy, so non-cancellor-equipped machines should be capable of the same ranges.

By the way, this ECM effect is more of a reference to the Minovsky particles of UC, which do the same thing, than it's used as an excuse for close combat.

Originally Posted by Wesley84

He didn't seem professional enough to fit in ZAFT if you ask me. I mean, in Seed you had unprofessionals in the military (Kira & Friends) due to circumstances. Mwu Flaga was a professional, as were Natatille and Murre, even if their views differed. Rau's group with Yzak, Dearka, Nicole, and Athrun were professional, if full of themsleves with different temperments and personalities.

There are plenty of undisciplined people in militaries (even if they're unlikely to get very far), so it's not exactly unrealistic. What is unrealistic is that Shinn never got reprimanded for most of his actions. This is partially due to the influence of Durandal and Rey, which makes it rather more acceptable.

Originally Posted by Wesley84

And technically he wasn't a combat pilot. He was a test pilot chosen to work on the Impulse Gundam. Due to circumstances, he, Impulse, and Minerva were launched too early and sent into combat.

Maybe they should have tried to emphasis that fact a bit more?

Not really; Durandal pulled the strings so that Shinn and Minerva got sent into action.

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Asuka was a talented and superb pilot, but ultimately failed as a soldier on many disciplinary grounds. Still, it was his anger and drive for vengeance that made him go on with fighting so I think the producers wanted to focus on that. There were just too many ways to explore this character, but they were wasted for the old cast which brought nothing new in return.

Shinn pretty much ended up where the creators had planned for him. If any characters in Destiny needed more exploration, it'd be Rey and Gladys.

Originally Posted by Wesley84

Rau was a better and more easily understood manipulator than Dullindal was. Certainly one could appreciate his more hands on and practical approach to villiany. Gil almost seemed like he wanted to be beaten at the end.

I'm not sure what you're referring to here. Durandal made the most of what he had available given that most of his plan had already been ruined.

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Shinn pretty much ended up where the creators had planned for him. If any characters in Destiny needed more exploration, it'd be Rey and Gladys.

Well, Rey is one of the most notable examples of how to f*** up a character just by jumping straight from one end of character development to another. And yeah, Shinn maybe ended up just as the authors planned (though I just rely on what you said), but I expected him to be the protagonist. The one to get at least as much attention as Kira had in the previous series. I'd somehow bare Athrun as a "second" main POV again, but they just had to dump in Kira, Lacus and dozens side-stories, which they, of course, had to cut short "straight to the end" with the expense of quality and, as we see in the case of Rey, consistence.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

And yeah, Shinn maybe ended up just as the authors planned (though I just rely on what you said), but I expected him to be the protagonist.

It's almost certain that the creators had two ending scenes regarding Shinn in mind from the very beginning: the first is that of Shinn crying in Lunamaria's arms as he loses everything. The only reason for him to meet Kira when Minerva docked at Orb is to set up the question of "what's the point of planting the flowers when they'll be flooded over and destroyed?" The second scene is the response - to the effect that "then we just plant them all over again". This means that Shinn was supposed to end up losing from the very beginning.

By the way, I think that Durandal fits better as the protagonist.

[D-KLAC]

Originally Posted by Shinn_Kabuto

hehe, what I also like in Gundam 00 is not only the mechas but the characters as well. Celestial Being is like Lelouch to Code Geass. And after Gundam 00 Season 1, here comes Code Geass Season 2.

Pride: Maybe u can use ur Hissatsu Attack Climax Version on D-KLAC to surely knock some sense on him. Then I'll use my Wild Shot finisher on him too.

why you all want to "knock" sense on me geez really my life was differently changed because of GS

also GSM is real besides it's TOP SECRET so just wait for GSM

besides all i'm doing is just to INNOVATE some GS on ya life because i'm just opening a door to a new generation because of GS.

& really GS fans should really do something for GS like get a mini GS series, prequal GS series/special/ova, GS spinoff, etc to the "gundam HQ" for a new era of gundam series in GS.

[OMG_Zerg_Rush]

Originally Posted by D-KLAC

why you all want to "knock" sense on me geez

Because you annoy us and we don't like you, and the only reason i can think of why the mods havent banned you for trolling it that they don't like us

also GSM is real besides it's TOP SECRET so just wait for GSM

So top secret sunrise told us they are making it (and that its in development hell)

besides all i'm doing is just to INNOVATE some GS on ya life because i'm just opening a door to a new generation because of GS.

& really GS fans should really do something for GS like get a mini GS series, prequal GS series/special/ova, GS spinoff, etc to the "gundam HQ" for a new era of gundam series in GS.

We (well most of us) buy their products thats all that is expected of us um right?
________
Penny Stock Pick

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

It's almost certain that the creators had two ending scenes regarding Shinn in mind from the very beginning: the first is that of Shinn crying in Lunamaria's arms as he loses everything. The only reason for him to meet Kira when Minerva docked at Orb is to set up the question of "what's the point of planting the flowers when they'll be flooded over and destroyed?" The second scene is the response - to the effect that "then we just plant them all over again". This means that Shinn was supposed to end up losing from the very beginning.

I'd rather think that Shinn was a confused kid who needed guidance. And Kira provided it to him. Still, it doesn't really make up for the big mistake creators did by pushing Shinnn to the background. And I didn't want him to win, but just gain more attention so I could later feel for him more when he eventually burst out crying in the arms of Lunamaria.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

By the way, I think that Durandal fits better as the protagonist.

A mature grown-up politician with ambiguous morality as the main hero of the whole Gundam series? To me, it'd not work. And I think it'd also not seem that appealing in the eyes of other SEED fans who are used to their teenage emotional berserk prodigies

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

I'd rather think that Shinn was a confused kid who needed guidance. And Kira provided it to him. Still, it doesn't really make up for the big mistake creators did by pushing Shinnn to the background. And I didn't want him to win, but just gain more attention so I could later feel for him more when he eventually burst out crying in the arms of Lunamaria.

I don't think that we were supposed to want him to win.

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

A mature grown-up politician with ambiguous morality as the main hero of the whole Gundam series? To me, it'd not work. And I think it'd also not seem that appealing in the eyes of other SEED fans who are used to their teenage emotional berserk prodigies

A protagonist and a hero aren't necessarily synonymous. I think that Durandal fits the former, but he certainly doesn't fit the latter. The creators seemed to be trying to do something very different with Destiny; and as a result, it is in many ways, the most unGundam of all the Gundam TV shows.

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I don't think that we were supposed to want him to win.

I don't think so, either. That's why I wrote what I wrote.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

A protagonist and a hero aren't necessarily synonymous. I think that Durandal fits the former, but he certainly doesn't fit the latter. The creators seemed to be trying to do something very different with Destiny; and as a result, it is in many ways, the most unGundam of all the Gundam TV shows.

According to many SEED is generally VERY unGundam in terms of mood. This air of teenage soap drama is one of the things that made me love the series (the second thing being music)

And well, I still think that Dullindal wouldn't work out as a protagonist OR hero of any SEED series. Maybe in some Astray or mini-series, but never of such a long 50-ep show.

[D-KLAC]

Originally Posted by OMG_Zerg_Rush

Because you annoy us and we don't like you, and the only reason i can think of why the mods havent banned you for trolling it that they don't like us



So top secret sunrise told us they are making it (and that its in development hell)



We (well most of us) buy their products thats all that is expected of us um right?

"buying the products" geez hello i'm TALKING ABOUT GS FANS TO MAKE A IMPACT!!!

you know do something amazing, shocking, surprise, omg, etc for GS like send your idea for a GS project or something besides there already GS amv & GS fanfic so what about a GS series/spinoff/ova/special that is made by fans to be anime showing.

come on i really want GS fans to make something in their lives.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

According to many SEED is generally VERY unGundam in terms of mood. This air of teenage soap drama is one of the things that made me love the series (the second thing being music)

Seed as an unGundam show? I find that very hard to believe since it not only has just about all of the standard Gundam elements, but it uses them in very familiar ways. The only significant thing that's a little different is that the characters are conceptualized in a much more modern manner.

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

And well, I still think that Dullindal wouldn't work out as a protagonist OR hero of any SEED series. Maybe in some Astray or mini-series, but never of such a long 50-ep show.

It's not a question of whether Durandal would have worked as a protagonist or not. He effectively was the protagonist of Destiny.

Under the same kind of scrutiny, Gundam 00 doesn't really have a protagonist yet.

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Seed as an unGundam show? I find that very hard to believe since it not only has just about all of the standard Gundam elements, but it uses them in very familiar ways. The only significant thing that's a little different is that the characters are conceptualized in a much more modern manner.

When I first saw SEED, having some idea what Gundam shows are after Wing and excerpts of MSG, only the motiff of war and the robots seemed "gundamish" to me. The air the show has to it and the soap drama approach were totally new. And most of the productions before were less "infantile" and more "realistic" in character design, maybe with the exception of G-Gundam. But to think of it now, with the SEED having dominated the market for a while, I think that we indeed can freely accept the fact that what you say there is correct already. As "Gundam" is now only about "war" and "big robots", with mood, design and plot varying from one series to another.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

It's not a question of whether Durandal would have worked as a protagonist or not. He effectively was the protagonist of Destiny.

I still think that usually a protagonist is actually someone who actually has most screentime, is a narrative voice, or is a person with whom most watchers could identify with. Dullindal hardly fulfills any of these aspects. Maybe the last one, but I doubt whether most people from the younger generation would identify themeselves with a grown-up politician.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Under the same kind of scrutiny, Gundam 00 doesn't really have a protagonist yet.

I don't think so. I'd say that in the 50-ep series it was Shinn with Athrun as the "secondary protagonist" like he was in SEED. But then, towards the end, the show indeed scrambles and that's what I basically perceive as one of the greatest mistakes of Destiny.

[D a m i e n]

i kinda agree that SEED didnt really felt like gundam. the first gundam series i saw back in the days were 0083, war in the pocket, 8thMS. so the teamage atmosphere with highconcentration of hormonem angst and emoness was a bit "out" for me

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

When I first saw SEED, having some idea what Gundam shows are after Wing and excerpts of MSG, only the motiff of war and the robots seemed "gundamish" to me. The air the show has to it and the soap drama approach were totally new.

I think that I'm beginning to see your reasoning. However, the baseline for what is and isn't Gundamlike is the original set of shows: Mobile Suit Gundam, Zeta, and ZZ. In this regard, Seed is probably closer than most of the other non-UC works.

Originally Posted by Wesley84

I still think that usually a protagonist is actually someone who actually has most screentime, is a narrative voice, or is a person with whom most watchers could identify with. Dullindal hardly fulfills any of these aspects. Maybe the last one, but I doubt whether most people from the younger generation would identify themeselves with a grown-up politician.

That isn't really necessarily true. While the protagonist is usually defined as the main character of a story, what it really means is that it's who the story is about. Gundam Seed Destiny is much more about Durandal trying to enact his Destiny Plan than it is about Shinn and his struggles or Cagalli trying to recover her nation or Kira going back to war again or even Lacus trying to foil Durandal.

The fact that most viewers wouldn't identify themselves with Durandal isn't all that important since most readers aren't supposed to necessarily identify with Don Quixote or Sherlock Holmes or any number of unusual protagonists in literature.

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I think that I'm beginning to see your reasoning. However, the baseline for what is and isn't Gundamlike is the original set of shows: Mobile Suit Gundam, Zeta, and ZZ. In this regard, Seed is probably closer than most of the other non-UC works.

I'd say it differently. I think that the first MSG and Zeta are most similar to SEED among all the Gundam shows that share the specific "non-CE-ness". But still, what makes them so similar are just some plot occurences, not chara/mecha designs (not counting obvious homages like zakus, goufs or doms), modernized graphics, the mood etc. which are completely different. Ultimately, stylistically, MSG and Zeta fit more into the frames of old-school "realistic" dark war story rather than to the warm-colored-soap-drama style represented solely by SEED/Destiny.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

That isn't really necessarily true. While the protagonist is usually defined as the main character of a story, what it really means is that it's who the story is about. Gundam Seed Destiny is much more about Durandal trying to enact his Destiny Plan than it is about Shinn and his struggles or Cagalli trying to recover her nation or Kira going back to war again or even Lacus trying to foil Durandal.

To me, it's like saying that The Star Wars movies are much more about Palpatine who realizes his plan of conquering the universe than Anakin Skywalker and his struggles or Obi Wan's road to glory or Luke Skywalker's adventures. But maybe it's just me.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

The fact that most viewers wouldn't identify themselves with Durandal isn't all that important since most readers aren't supposed to necessarily identify with Don Quixote or Sherlock Holmes or any number of unusual protagonists in literature.

One thing. Sherlock and Don Quixote HAD most of the reader's attention focused on them. It's like they had literary "most screentime" among the protagonists of the stories. Just like Kira in SEED. Or Shinn in Destiny, but only until the second half of the show, sadly.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

I'd say it differently. I think that the first MSG and Zeta are most similar to SEED among all the Gundam shows that share the specific "non-CE-ness". But still, what makes them so similar are just some plot occurences, not chara/mecha designs (not counting obvious homages like zakus, goufs or doms), modernized graphics, the mood etc. which are completely different. Ultimately, stylistically, MSG and Zeta fit more into the frames of old-school "realistic" dark war story rather than to the warm-colored-soap-drama style represented solely by SEED/Destiny.

The main similarity between Seed and its predecessors are in terms of theme, setting, and story structure. Destiny is very different in all of these elements and so it ends up being very different from those shows.

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

To me, it's like saying that The Star Wars movies are much more about Palpatine who realizes his plan of conquering the universe than Anakin Skywalker and his struggles or Obi Wan's road to glory or Luke Skywalker's adventures. But maybe it's just me.

For the prequel trilogy, you'd be almost correct: Palpatine's rise to ultimate power is the main secondary theme throughout those films. However, it's a little overshadowed by Anakin's rise and fall.

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

One thing. Sherlock and Don Quixote HAD most of the reader's attention focused on them. It's like they had literary "most screentime" among the protagonists of the stories.

Not really. That would belong to Watson and Sancho Panza respectively.

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

The main similarity between Seed and its predecessors are in terms of theme, setting, and story structure. Destiny is very different in all of these elements and so it ends up being very different from those shows.

So generally CE ends up being a very unGundamish if one would look it that way.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

For the prequel trilogy, you'd be almost correct: Palpatine's rise to ultimate power is the main secondary theme throughout those films. However, it's a little overshadowed by Anakin's rise and fall.

But still u got my point, probably. Don't tell me Palpatine would be ever considered THE protagonist. Even the secondary one like:

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Watson and Sancho Panza respectively.

Who to me are like Athrun in both CE series. Intended to play a supporting role to Kira, then Shinn respectively. But still having many moments and even overshadowing the main protagonists at times. This could be mainly noticed in Destiny Special Editions where Athrun is not only one of the main protagonists, but also a the narrator.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

So generally CE ends up being a very unGundamish if one would look it that way.

Not really. I know I pointed this out to you earlier, but the Seed verse is closer to the "core" Gundam than just about any other series. Different characters and superficial ideologies can make it distinct, but it doesn't make it original. The basic plot of the Seed Verse comes straight from the Gundam series, with the main alterations being rather minor overall. Compare the base three UC series to G, Wing, 00, and Seed, and Seed comes closest to the orignals of them all. That doesn't make it unGundamish.

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Not really. I know I pointed this out to you earlier, but the Seed verse is closer to the "core" Gundam than just about any other series. Different characters and superficial ideologies can make it distinct, but it doesn't make it original. The basic plot of the Seed Verse comes straight from the Gundam series, with the main alterations being rather minor overall. Compare the base three UC series to G, Wing, 00, and Seed, and Seed comes closest to the orignals of them all. That doesn't make it unGundamish.

And I have to point out again that SEED is similar to MSG just in terms of script and basic plot concepts. But these are not enough, IMO. In my eyes, what truly makes a Gundam series original and Gundamish at the same time is the design and mood. You don't have to agree with me. But still, I think that SEED does not have much in common with any of the previous Gundam shows.

To make some sort of an analogy:

Take the "Red Riding Hood" fairly tale, for instance. Even if the same story is made into a porn movie, the production by no means would be classified as a fairy tale. It'd rather be classified as a porn movie. So if you put the porn version "Red Riding Hood" among the traditional fairy tales, it'd still "stick out" with its "unconventional form". And it'd be considered as a very "un-fairy tale" product, despite the similar plot which underwent some "artistic changes" and was added a couple of "additional original scenes".

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

And I have to point out again that SEED is similar to MSG just in terms of script and basic plot concepts. But these are not enough, IMO. In my eyes, what truly makes a Gundam series original and Gundamish at the same time is the design and mood. You don't have to agree with me. But still, I think that SEED does not have much in common with any of the previous Gundam shows.

This is a case of where your opinion is against established literary practices. Saying that something that is sibling-close in terms of plot and script aren't alike flies in the face of literary classifications. Parodies are the good example; despite freely mocking, often having entirely different types of characters and situation, and being of entirely different types of production of what they target, they are always considered blank-"ish." SpaceBalls is an example; it throws out exact characters, plot arcs, and themes, but it is no way considered not "Star Wars-ish." Links between parts of a franchise are done through a mix of common themes, styles, motifs, and plot points, and Gundam Seed has almost all of these. Exact tone is largely irrelevant; Full Metal Panic and Full Metal Fumuffu are both equally FMP-ish, despite having entirely different takes and ideas. (One is a romantic comedy, the other tries to be much darker and more serious.)

Now, you might want to reword your opinion so that it doesn't contradict established definitions: you might want to say that "Gundam Seed tells it a story in a unique mood with different emphasis on character." That could successfully be argued. Saying that Seed is remarkably "unGundamish" runs against most of the measures by what that would be measured by.

To make some sort of an nalogy:

Take the "Red Riding Hood" fairly tale, for instance. Even if the same story is made into a porn movie, the production by no means would be classified as a fairy tale. It'd rather be classified as a porn movie. So if you put the porn version "Red Riding Hood" among the traditional fairy tales, it'd still "stick out" with its "unconventional form".

Bad analogy: Gundam is a franchise, not a genre. Robin Hood is similarly a story, not a genre. A Robin Hood porno would still be considered "Robin Hood"-ish. "Men in Tights" is a Robin Hood parody you might know; it completely ignores most of the Robin Hood tales, but is hardly not a part of the same Robin Hood mythos.

[Sir Dearka]

Spoiler for Everything Dean the Young said:

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

This is a case of where your opinion is against established literary practices. Saying that something that is sibling-close in terms of plot and script aren't alike flies in the face of literary classifications. Parodies are the good example; despite freely mocking, often having entirely different types of characters and situation, and being of entirely different types of production of what they target, they are always considered blank-"ish." SpaceBalls is an example; it throws out exact characters, plot arcs, and themes, but it is no way considered not "Star Wars-ish." Links between parts of a franchise are done through a mix of common themes, styles, motifs, and plot points, and Gundam Seed has almost all of these. Exact tone is largely irrelevant; Full Metal Panic and Full Metal Fumuffu are both equally FMP-ish, despite having entirely different takes and ideas. (One is a romantic comedy, the other tries to be much darker and more serious.)

Now, you might want to reword your opinion so that it doesn't contradict established definitions: you might want to say that "Gundam Seed tells it a story in a unique mood with different emphasis on character." That could successfully be argued. Saying that Seed is remarkably "unGundamish" runs against most of the measures by what that would be measured by.
Bad analogy: Gundam is a franchise, not a genre. Robin Hood is similarly a story, not a genre. A Robin Hood porno would still be considered "Robin Hood"-ish. "Men in Tights" is a Robin Hood parody you might know; it completely ignores most of the Robin Hood tales, but is hardly not a part of the same Robin Hood mythos.

I don't think that those analogies are bad as what really did not tick here are our POVs on "what is "Robin Hood"ish what's not". Notice that I by no means said that everyone should perceive SEED as "unGundamish". The contrary.

However, I just tried to make one see that the show is indeed very original in many terms. The sole fact that there is war and Gundams and the fact that it was supposed to be a homage to the first series already makes it very GUNDAMISH (we all know that the prerequisites a series has to fiulfill to become a Gundam show so far became very "loose"). Still, if we judged it only by its designs and not-that-superficial but very strong "soap drama" character development, it's a very remarkable series by its own right. That's basically it.