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shmaster · 2011-02-24, 22:04

As in, where on the Sephirot?

Chaos2Frozen · 2011-02-24, 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by shmaster

As in, where on the Sephirot?

Yeah, I'm curious since the whole point of [Angel Fall] was to switch postions with an Angel, so how high up the tree did he climbed? Which Sephirot do Angel reside?

shmaster · 2011-02-25, 00:08

Well, reside isn't a really good word as the Sephirot isn't really a "place" that you can stay in.
But each Sphere of Sephirot do have its individual ruling angel.

The angels close to god resides in the world of Atzilut, represented by the highest segment of tree, where the light from Ein Sof flows into first. The world of Asiyah is the material world we lives in, which is bottom segment of the tree.

Chaos2Frozen · 2011-02-25, 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by shmaster

Well, reside isn't a really good word as the Sephirot isn't really a "place" that you can stay in.
But each Sphere of Sephirot do have its individual ruling angel.

The angels close to god resides in the world of Atzilut, represented by the highest segment of tree, where the light from Ein Sof flows into first. The world of Asiyah is the material world we lives in, which is bottom segment of the tree.

So what does it mean to 'switch positions' with an Angel like what Touya did?

shmaster · 2011-02-25, 00:30

Well since To Aru verse doesn't derive from Kabbalah directly. The angel fall is simply swapping the angel from the higher plane to a lower one. Rather than to change their class and property.

Mr.Kyon · 2011-02-28, 23:10

I have a question for whom it may concern.

What would happen if for example someone threw a magic bolt at Accelerator. Could he deflect it? If not, then could he add the bolt and other types of magic to his AIM field like he did with Kakine's dark matter?

According to the wiki, Accel has a strong enough AIM field concentration to dissipate magic (Volume 20).

How exactly does it work?

~~I_am_Kami~~ · 2011-02-28, 23:27

IMO.....yes. Why? I think the difference is between magic and kakines power is that magic is based on the natural powers of the world. Kakines is a divine power which is something not of this world. I remember reading he blocked a giant blast from fiamma though it was in his awakened form

shmaster · 2011-02-28, 23:38

I would say yes too. Accelerator's reflection is based on whether he comprehends the vector of whatever things that is being thrown at him.
In other word, as he has comprehended magic now, he should reflect them just fine.

Chaos2Frozen · 2011-02-28, 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Kyon

I have a question for whom it may concern.

What would happen if for example someone threw a magic bolt at Accelerator. Could he deflect it? If not, then could he add the bolt and other types of magic to his AIM field like he did with Kakine's dark matter?

According to the wiki, Accel has a strong enough AIM field concentration to dissipate magic (Volume 20).

How exactly does it work?

Here's my opinion; Magic, despite being magic, still produces a physical effect that can be observed by science- eg. Oriana's counterspell produces the same effects that can be identified as a heatstroke, Vento's Divine Puishment results in the same effects as asphyxiation. So if you can protect against the phyiscal effects, it should be the same as normal. Of course, that's not even including the elemental attacks that all magicians seem to use...

...In fact, only the more powerful beings have Incomprehensible beam of light. Most Magicians' attacks usually rely on some material or medium.

The honest truth is, we don't know how Accelerator was dissipating those magic water attacks; One theory is strong AIM field, another theory is that magic still have elements of the physical world in them, and Accelerator is able to at least reflect those parts.

Mr.Kyon · 2011-03-01, 00:05

That's what I figured. If a fireball is heading his way, it still is physical fire no matter how it was created. Only powers from divine origins (Kakine or Saints) can truly mess with his Redirection. That is until he comprehends the way it works so he can add it to his manipulation list. Good enough explanation for me

Chaos2Frozen · 2011-03-01, 00:17

Another idea I would like to propose is that Accelerator doesn't just include vectors from the four known dimensions, but he could also include 'unknown' vectors moving within the other 'hypothetical' dimensions- which might explain how he could reflect teleportation which moves objects through dimensions.

Maybe other abilities like telekinesis or telepathy also employ such a means? Heck maybe even magic that just happen out of nowhere are connected through a separate dimension.

Then again, there's still the possibility of [Quantum entanglement] aka "Spooky action at a distance"...

Flere821 · 2011-03-01, 00:33

For the record, though the magicians' spells are physical water that is just the shape of the magical attack. The water spear turned into 7-coloured light due to reflect not being able to completely analyse the energy passing through his reflect (or the laws that those energy work by), and it ended up being distorted (like light and prisms) and bounced off on a tangent.

Basically, Accelerator can perfectly reflect magic - with the premise that he spends a few months with Index at least and having live-fire experiments with other magicians. If he doesn't have complete knowledge (like when he fought Kakine) he won't be able to perfectly reflect magic.

And I do mean that Accelerator needs to have complete knowledge - Kakine shot a few million types of energy at Accelerator with those refracted sunlight and wind gusts to see what can get by Accelerator's reflect, and that provided a lot of data on how Dark Matter works with the physical world. A few magicians like Stiyl or just Necessarius magicians probably won't be able to provide the myriad of types of magic that Accel needs to experience before Accel can adjust his reflect to deflect magic - it might end up reflecting Nordic spells but lets Shinto ones pass through or something, without enough info.

shmaster · 2011-03-01, 01:27

With him fully digesting the information on the goatskin, I am pretty sure he has some way to bend the Telesma now.

giorno · 2011-03-01, 06:41

but didn't he specifically say that redirection would be useless on telesma when he went to block Fiamma's blast?

Chaos2Frozen · 2011-03-01, 07:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by giorno

but didn't he specifically say that redirection would be useless on telesma when he went to block Fiamma's blast?

That might be because the scale of the damn thing is too huge, similar to how he could barely stay alive from Misha's [Sweep].

giorno · 2011-03-01, 13:09

well

Quote:

As expected, it wasn't a normal power, just like Accelerator's white wings. Most likely, even 'Redirection' wouldn't work. It will probably go straight through, just like when he was defeated by Aiwass.

doesn't sound like a problem of scale to me

Cosmic Eagle · 2011-03-03, 11:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by shmaster

With him fully digesting the information on the goatskin, I am pretty sure he has some way to bend the Telesma now.

The Fianma blast took everything out of him....he'd surely be dead if it were any bigger. And this is after his white wings.

At this point? No.....Telesma still clearly is a deadly threat to him.

Chaos2Frozen · 2011-03-17, 01:13

It was mentioned by some of your that the names of the Angels represent their role given to them by God, in which case Gabriel is more like a Punisher rather than a messenger with abilities like the [Sweep] that destroyed two cities. What about the other Angels like Uriel and Raphael and many others? What do you think they're capable of? They might not be as powerful as Gabriel and Michael, but they sure be able to pull off some very broken moves... But hopefully not too broken as it would belittle the powers of those two if everybody (even 'normal' Angels) can throw planets and stars around.

Also, Given what we know about Angels in toaru, which can be quite limiting, What do you think happens when an Angel gets kicked out from Heaven by God? Assuming they're not locked up in some hole like Lucifer. I'm talking about the official Fallen Angels like Azazel and Samael and the Watchers. Being cut off from their main source of Telesma I would think that over time they would get much weaker and possiblity lose their celestial knowledge or at least the power to use that knowledge, and after wandering the planet for hundreds of years, perhaps they would develop more human-like personalities?

Flere821 · 2011-03-17, 03:08

I was under the impression that 'fallen angels' are basically malfunctioning automatons... then again angels like Gabriel has shown having their own views and such in the novels.

I'll go out on a limb and say these fallen angels are sustained by the negative thoughts of humanity and are working against God's ideal.

And Uriel (or Raphael) was aligned to Earth right? The kanji for it said 'God's Medicine' and Terra stated he needed to partake in 'God's Blood' (Red wine) to recharge his powers, so I'm guessing the Earth Archangel has some sort of 'HAX' healing power.

Chaos2Frozen · 2011-03-17, 03:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flere821

I was under the impression that 'fallen angels' are basically malfunctioning automatons... then again angels like Gabriel has shown having their own views and such in the novels.

I'll go out on a limb and say these fallen angels are sustained by the negative thoughts of humanity and are working against God's ideal.

Like you, my first thought was that the have to find an alternate source of power if they can't draw power from Heaven. I haven't decide what this source is though. But Can emotions be a source of magic?

But I have concluded that Working again God's plan isn't as evil as they want it to sound. Actually, if you look at some of the things the Fallen Angels are accused of teaching humans and subsequently be banished, they can seem quite Outrageous.

Take for example the Grigori:

Azazel: teaches weaponcraft and cosmetics
Chazaqiel: teaches meteorology
Penemue: teaches writing
Sariel: teaches about the moon
Shamsiel: teaches about the sun

That's why I suggest that over time maybe overtime they grow attach to humanity and begin teaching them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flere821

And Uriel (or Raphael) was aligned to Earth right? The kanji for it said 'God's Medicine' and Terra stated he needed to partake in 'God's Blood' (Red wine) to recharge his powers, so I'm guessing the Earth Archangel has some sort of 'HAX' healing power.

Raphael.

The powers of Gabriel like the [Sweep] is base off him/her/it destroying two cities in a [Rain of Fire].

What did Raphael do? Use the body parts of a big fish for spells,The eyes to heal the blind, and the heart and gall to repel demons. Oh, it also defeated the Fallen Angel Azazel somehow. But maybe Raphael isn't the best example

But still, I wonder if you can create a destruction spell from somewhere in there...

Uriel on the other hand is confusing- the [Flame of God], but it's Element is Wind.

2011-03-01, 00:17	Link #411
Chaos2Frozen We're Back Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Redgrave City Age: 35	Another idea I would like to propose is that Accelerator doesn't just include vectors from the four known dimensions, but he could also include 'unknown' vectors moving within the other 'hypothetical' dimensions- which might explain how he could reflect teleportation which moves objects through dimensions. Maybe other abilities like telekinesis or telepathy also employ such a means? Heck maybe even magic that just happen out of nowhere are connected through a separate dimension. Then again, there's still the possibility of [Quantum entanglement] aka "Spooky action at a distance"... __________________ Devil Trigger , Subhuman , Crimson Cloud , Mad Qualia

2011-03-17, 01:13	Link #418
Chaos2Frozen We're Back Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Redgrave City Age: 35	It was mentioned by some of your that the names of the Angels represent their role given to them by God, in which case Gabriel is more like a Punisher rather than a messenger with abilities like the [Sweep] that destroyed two cities. What about the other Angels like Uriel and Raphael and many others? What do you think they're capable of? They might not be as powerful as Gabriel and Michael, but they sure be able to pull off some very broken moves... But hopefully not too broken as it would belittle the powers of those two if everybody (even 'normal' Angels) can throw planets and stars around. Also, Given what we know about Angels in toaru, which can be quite limiting, What do you think happens when an Angel gets kicked out from Heaven by God? Assuming they're not locked up in some hole like Lucifer. I'm talking about the official Fallen Angels like Azazel and Samael and the Watchers. Being cut off from their main source of Telesma I would think that over time they would get much weaker and possiblity lose their celestial knowledge or at least the power to use that knowledge, and after wandering the planet for hundreds of years, perhaps they would develop more human-like personalities? __________________ Devil Trigger , Subhuman , Crimson Cloud , Mad Qualia

2011-02-24, 22:04	Link #401
shmaster オンドリャァァァ!!! Join Date: May 2009	As in, where on the Sephirot?

2011-02-25, 00:08	Link #403
shmaster オンドリャァァァ!!! Join Date: May 2009	Well, reside isn't a really good word as the Sephirot isn't really a "place" that you can stay in. But each Sphere of Sephirot do have its individual ruling angel. The angels close to god resides in the world of Atzilut, represented by the highest segment of tree, where the light from Ein Sof flows into first. The world of Asiyah is the material world we lives in, which is bottom segment of the tree.

2011-02-25, 00:30	Link #405
shmaster オンドリャァァァ!!! Join Date: May 2009	Well since To Aru verse doesn't derive from Kabbalah directly. The angel fall is simply swapping the angel from the higher plane to a lower one. Rather than to change their class and property.

2011-02-28, 23:10	Link #406
Mr.Kyon I crack you up Join Date: Dec 2010 Age: 30	I have a question for whom it may concern. What would happen if for example someone threw a magic bolt at Accelerator. Could he deflect it? If not, then could he add the bolt and other types of magic to his AIM field like he did with Kakine's dark matter? According to the wiki, Accel has a strong enough AIM field concentration to dissipate magic (Volume 20). How exactly does it work?

2011-02-28, 23:27	Link #407
~~I_am_Kami~~ Disabled By Request Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The 305 Age: 30	IMO.....yes. Why? I think the difference is between magic and kakines power is that magic is based on the natural powers of the world. Kakines is a divine power which is something not of this world. I remember reading he blocked a giant blast from fiamma though it was in his awakened form

2011-02-28, 23:38	Link #408
shmaster オンドリャァァァ!!! Join Date: May 2009	I would say yes too. Accelerator's reflection is based on whether he comprehends the vector of whatever things that is being thrown at him. In other word, as he has comprehended magic now, he should reflect them just fine.

2011-03-01, 00:05	Link #410
Mr.Kyon I crack you up Join Date: Dec 2010 Age: 30	That's what I figured. If a fireball is heading his way, it still is physical fire no matter how it was created. Only powers from divine origins (Kakine or Saints) can truly mess with his Redirection. That is until he comprehends the way it works so he can add it to his manipulation list. Good enough explanation for me

2011-03-01, 00:33	Link #412
Flere821 Lurker Join Date: Aug 2010	For the record, though the magicians' spells are physical water that is just the shape of the magical attack. The water spear turned into 7-coloured light due to reflect not being able to completely analyse the energy passing through his reflect (or the laws that those energy work by), and it ended up being distorted (like light and prisms) and bounced off on a tangent. Basically, Accelerator can perfectly reflect magic - with the premise that he spends a few months with Index at least and having live-fire experiments with other magicians. If he doesn't have complete knowledge (like when he fought Kakine) he won't be able to perfectly reflect magic. And I do mean that Accelerator needs to have complete knowledge - Kakine shot a few million types of energy at Accelerator with those refracted sunlight and wind gusts to see what can get by Accelerator's reflect, and that provided a lot of data on how Dark Matter works with the physical world. A few magicians like Stiyl or just Necessarius magicians probably won't be able to provide the myriad of types of magic that Accel needs to experience before Accel can adjust his reflect to deflect magic - it might end up reflecting Nordic spells but lets Shinto ones pass through or something, without enough info.

2011-03-01, 01:27	Link #413
shmaster オンドリャァァァ!!! Join Date: May 2009	With him fully digesting the information on the goatskin, I am pretty sure he has some way to bend the Telesma now.

2011-03-01, 06:41	Link #414
giorno Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009	but didn't he specifically say that redirection would be useless on telesma when he went to block Fiamma's blast?

2011-03-17, 03:08	Link #419
Flere821 Lurker Join Date: Aug 2010	I was under the impression that 'fallen angels' are basically malfunctioning automatons... then again angels like Gabriel has shown having their own views and such in the novels. I'll go out on a limb and say these fallen angels are sustained by the negative thoughts of humanity and are working against God's ideal. And Uriel (or Raphael) was aligned to Earth right? The kanji for it said 'God's Medicine' and Terra stated he needed to partake in 'God's Blood' (Red wine) to recharge his powers, so I'm guessing the Earth Archangel has some sort of 'HAX' healing power.